Is IT for Visual Filmmakers Only?

Where's all the sound people? By my last count, there's a whopping total of three active members of IT who are sound people.

Surely, there must be forums where sound people get nerdy with each other. How do we get them involved in this forum?

We keep saying that audio is half the movie, but are we doing anything about it? If sound is half the movie, then half the members of IT should be sound people.

How do we make that possible?

APE, you and I are teammates in this thread. :D
 
How do I record a guitar good? I'm using garage band and the sound sounds weird. What software you use to record?

I'm looking for a floor gazer guitar sound by the way.
 
How do I record a guitar good? I'm using garage band and the sound sounds weird. What software you use to record?

I'm looking for a floor gazer guitar sound by the way.

And that makes four sound people on this forum. We need more sound people on this forum. How do we reach out to them? How do we get them to use this forum instead of the others that they surely frequent?

Sweetie, you're just trolling me at this point. Any casual observer can see that's the case. Should you continue down this path, you'll only ruin your legitimacy on this forum. Don't make me take the gloves off.
 
I'm asking honestly, sound guy.

I don't care to reach out to anyone else other than you since you have an expertise in film sound.

Edit: sorry, I thought you were calling me a troll. Im a sweetie too.
 
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I'm asking honestly, sound guy.

I don't care to reach out to anyone else other than you since you have an expertise in film sound.

Edit: sorry, I thought you were calling me a troll. Im a sweetie too.

No, Sweetie is a troll. You, J-lol, are exactly the type of person that this forum needs more of. Keep asking your questions. Create new threads for them. This forum needs it.

And for the record, I'm not a sound guy, otherwise I'd answer your question. I'm just hoping to recruit more of them to this forum. But I don't know how. How do we do that?
 
How do I record a guitar good? I'm using garage band and the sound sounds weird. What software you use to record?

I'm looking for a floor gazer guitar sound by the way.

I can probably help with that; I've done a lot of similar stuff. Some questions first:
- acoustic or electric?
- amp or DI? Mic?
- What interface are you using?
- by "floor gazer" do you mean like My Bloody Valentine? Lush? Slowdive? Jusu? Low? Explosions In The Sky? If you have an example of a song with a tone you want, that will help. But basically, effects are your friend here. And don't be afraid to layer them; different distortions/fuzz will add different character when used together. I like the tone of using a couple different chorus pedals at one. Throw on some delay and way too much reverb, and you're good to go!

The actual software for recording doesn't matter too much (I use Sonar myself), but more what you feed into it, and what you do with it once it is there. If you have an example of what you want, and even what you have recorded that doesn't sound right that you can toss on Soundcloud or something, I can probably get you close to where you want to go.
 
You're using IT to ask people to join IT?
I suggest you get someone else to handle any marketing for your films.

This thread is aimed at current active members of IT. If audio is half the film, it would behoove us to find a way to increase the number of sound people who take part in this forum. I'm merely asking the question - how do we do that?
 
This thread is aimed at current active members of IT. If audio is half the film, it would behoove us to find a way to increase the number of sound people who take part in this forum. I'm merely asking the question - how do we do that?

You ask them. But they won't read IT so you can't ask them here.
This conversation is moving in circles.
 
You ask them. But they won't read IT so you can't ask them here.
This conversation is moving in circles.

Is that really all we can do? I think we need to stretch our imagination, figure out a different mode of attracting new members. I don't have the answer, not yet, but there's gotta be something we can do differently.
 
Is that really all we can do? I think we need to stretch our imagination, figure out a different mode of attracting new members. I don't have the answer, not yet, but there's gotta be something we can do differently.

You could start making posts offering to pay them.

I'm not going to.
 
Hahaha.

I think I just found why people in the beginning stages have no clue about sound, @Cracker:

When a young kid sees that he can use his __________ (read: phone, T2i, digital camera, etc.) to make a funny video and post it online, they only see a CAMERA and not a MICROPHONE.

Young kids don't see MICROPHONES and think "Wow, I can shoot a short horror film and post it on vimeo with this Microphone!"

They only do that with cameras.

I bet if you went down the street on Main Street in any metro city and asked the people "Where did the T-rex roar in Jurassic Park come from?" they would look at you blankly and possibly say "Isn't that the sound from the set when they filmed it?"

Hence, it's a forgotten and lost art... overlooked... and even tried to be taken out or combined into other categories in the Academy Awards....

And so...

We work....
 
Hahaha.

I think I just found why people in the beginning stages have no clue about sound, @Cracker:

When a young kid sees that he can use his __________ (read: phone, T2i, digital camera, etc.) to make a funny video and post it online, they only see a CAMERA and not a MICROPHONE.

Young kids don't see MICROPHONES and think "Wow, I can shoot a short horror film and post it on vimeo with this Microphone!"

They only do that with cameras.

I bet if you went down the street on Main Street in any metro city and asked the people "Where did the T-rex roar in Jurassic Park come from?" they would look at you blankly and possibly say "Isn't that the sound from the set when they filmed it?"

Hence, it's a forgotten and lost art... overlooked... and even tried to be taken out or combined into other categories in the Academy Awards....

And so...

We work....

Dude, actually I think it's because there is a very heavy bias towards visuals in beginning filmmaking classes. As a generalization, I think most filmmakers are visually-minded first. We have to learn to be audio-minded. I'm a little late to the game, but that's one of the things I'm working on right now.

This one really smart sound guy sent me a link to an article that called-out the fact that beginning filmmaking classes are always focused on visuals. Audio is literally not part of the curriculum. I've taken a whopping total of two filmmaking classes in college, the highest of which being Filmmaking 201. That's a sophomore-level class, intended for film majors only (I was an outsider, teacher let me sneak in). And in FILMMAKING 201, a class that requires students to already be 25% finished with their filmmaking education, we never discussed audio. We were literally told to not worry about it.

Unsurprisingly, this is a theory I've espoused before. It's not that I was anti-audio, it's just that my theory was that you need to focus on learning how to tell a story with visuals first, and you can learn how to tell a story with audio later, and my logic was that you should focus on learning one thing at a time. That's what was taught to me.

The entire system needs to change. Beginner filmmakers need to learn about both, at the same time, especially since most beginner filmmakers are already coming from a visual bias.

There are some species of hummingbird that can only feed off of one particular species of flower. And that particular species of flower can only be pollinated by one particular species of hummingbird. Those who don't understand evolution will think this to be amazing coincidence. Those who understand evolution know that of course they fit each other, because they evolved together.

A budding filmmaker needs to allow their visual and audio skills to develop side-by-side, not one before the other. I'm a little annoyed that I was taught the wrong way, but I'm a believer in Yoda's philosophy, that I can unlearn what I have learned.
 
Surely, there must be forums where sound people get nerdy with each other.

Yes, there are quite a few. There's a fairly widely used production sound forum, two well used and respected audio post forums and of course many others besides.

Where's all the sound people?

Most of those who really know what they're doing wouldn't be interested and even for relative audio newbs, this board has limited appeal. When I first joined IT there was a very experienced industry pro here, publicly honoured/acclaimed for her contribution to the industry and highly respected (elsewhere) for her willingness to share a wealth of knowledge most in her situation are very guarded about sharing. She left IT, never to return, shortly after joining. Her reasons for leaving are still very much in evidence here, are why I've considered my continued participation here a number of times, are why there are so few others and why that situation is unlikely to change significantly.

APE, you and I are teammates in this thread.

In the sense that we both think it would be good to have other experienced/knowledgeable audio people on IT, yes, we are teammates. BUT I don't think you'd want to even hear about the "reasons" I mentioned above, let alone discuss them sensibly. I therefore don't see the point of even detailing those "reasons" because we'd just get into an argument about your belief in their validity, rather than in how we might address those reasons and actually do something differently to attract others.

G
 
Most of those who really know what they're doing wouldn't be interested and even for relative audio newbs, this board has limited appeal.

Right. So how do we give them greater appeal? IT is a very visually-oriented forum. There are other filmmaker forums I've visited, and they are also very visually-oriented. You are obviously a visitor of forums that are very audio-oriented. How do we make these two different types of forums work with each other? How do we get the members of one to join the other? I guess I need to join one of those audio forums. APE, would you please PM me a link?

In the sense that we both think it would be good to have other experienced/knowledgeable audio people on IT, yes, we are teammates. BUT I don't think you'd want to even hear about the "reasons" I mentioned above, let alone discuss them sensibly. I therefore don't see the point of even detailing those "reasons" because we'd just get into an argument about your belief in their validity, rather than in how we might address those reasons and actually do something differently to attract others.

Why are you using quotations for the word "reasons", haha? Sorry, I know English isn't your first language, that's not really fair of me to poke fun of, but it's funny. Dude, as long as you don't attack me, so long as you don't try to shut down what I am personally trying to do, I am so open to difference of opinion. I'd gladly like to know the reasons why you think audio people might shy away from this forum, cuz I want them to be more active.

At least I'm glad to know that you and I share a common-interest in no longer bickering with each other. Today is a good day in the history of IT.

"From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever."
- Chief Joseph, Nez Perce, 1840
 
Why are you using quotations for the word "reasons", haha?

I'm using quotations because I'm quoting my use of the word from the previous answer.

I know English isn't your first language, that's not really fair of me to poke fun of, but it's funny. Dude, as long as you don't attack me ....

Dude, I know respect and civility isn't your first language, whereas ignorance/hypocrisy is. For that reason and to spare others another wasted thread, I'll leave you to learn the hard way and find answers to your questions by yourself this time.

G
 
I'm using quotations because I'm quoting my use of the word from the previous answer.



Dude, I know respect and civility isn't your first language, whereas ignorance/hypocrisy is. For that reason and to spare others another wasted thread, I'll leave you to learn the hard way and find answers to your questions by yourself this time.

G

Lol, you so silly! I was just "poking fun" of your use of "quotations marks", cuz it was "totally unnecessary". I'm sorry I offended you, it was just an attempt at "light-hearted humor".

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When it comes to filmmaking - "If anyone notices your work you haven't done your job right."

The reason there aren't more sound folks here on IT is what occurs to me all the time.

Newb: How can I get good production sound?

AA: Retain someone competent to handle your production sound.

Newb (after numerous attempts to guide them in the proper direction): Well, I'll just get an Rode VideoMic and put it on top of the camera.


Two months later….

Newb: My production sounds sucks; how do I fix it?

AA: You can't; Garbage In/Garbage Out.

Newb: There must be something I can do!

AA: Well, you can spend 10 to 50 times the money you should have spent on production sound to get an experienced professional to make your track (hopefully) intelligible.

Newb: But I can't afford that!!!!


It's not a question of getting more sound-for-picture folks here at IT, it's changing the attitudes of the filmmakers. I've been preaching from my soapbox here on IT for nine years now with little success.
 
When it comes to filmmaking - "If anyone notices your work you haven't done your job right."

The reason there aren't more sound folks here on IT is what occurs to me all the time.

Newb: How can I get good production sound?

AA: Retain someone competent to handle your production sound.

Newb (after numerous attempts to guide them in the proper direction): Well, I'll just get an Rode VideoMic and put it on top of the camera.


Two months later….

Newb: My production sounds sucks; how do I fix it?

AA: You can't; Garbage In/Garbage Out.

Newb: There must be something I can do!

AA: Well, you can spend 10 to 50 times the money you should have spent on production sound to get an experienced professional to make your track (hopefully) intelligible.

Newb: But I can't afford that!!!!


It's not a question of getting more sound-for-picture folks here at IT, it's changing the attitudes of the filmmakers. I've been preaching from my soapbox here on IT for nine years now with little success.

Thanks Alcove, I appreciate the response. :)

I see where you're coming from, and I appreciate your logic, but I find it problematic in a couple of ways.

First, I'm not sure if you know how in-demand audio people are. I know that from your perspective, you probably think that you are the opposite of in-demand. I know that you've seen countless projects, both in real life and on here, where the audio is an after-thought. It wouldn't be unreasonable of you to reach the conclusion that the majority of indie filmmakers don't realize the importance of audio in their production, and choose to make it an afterthought. You'd probably be correct.

But what you might not realize is that my experience is quite the opposite. Look, as a tiny-budget filmmaker, it's easy as heck for me to find visually-minded people to collaborate with. It's incredibly difficult for me to find audio-minded people to work with. So I do the best with what's available to me.

Up until now, I've never had a project that was worth spending money on to hire a pro audio person to work with. For example, in another thread, I've got a silly little short film that I used my freaking DSLR to record audio on. I know that that is the wrong way to record audio. But I didn't care because it was just a silly little short that we were doing for fun. At the time, I didn't own any proper recording equipment, and I'm obviously not going to hire someone to do the job properly. This was just me and a couple of pals goofing off.

But that doesn't mean I didn't care about audio at all. If I cared nothing about audio in that short, I would've just used the in-cam audio that is already synced, instead of taking the time to record wilds and foley and then mix it all as best I could.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I very much want to spend whatever money I can to get the proper crew members needed to make my next feature a success, most especially audio. I won't be spending one cent to get a DP, by contrast. I've got a pro sound-guy lined-up for post. Exactly how much of the work-load he'll take on, we haven't yet discussed, cuz we can cross that bridge when we get to it. I don't know that I'll have the budget to get a pro for production. I'm certainly going to try, but budget (or lack thereof) may force me to hire a recent college-grad looking for their first job, or something like that.

Besides the fact that it's very difficult for folks like me to get audio-minded people involved in our projects, it's also true that maybe I want to learn how to do it. I may not be interested in becoming a pro audio person, but I absolutely think it improves the potential of me making a career out of directing by learning as much as I can about audio (and a few other things). And what's the best way to learn how to do it? By doing it.

You didn't just instantly become good at what you do, overnight, did you? No, it took a lot of practice. There was once a time when your audio was shitty. Am I not allowed to also make shitty audio, while learning how to become better at it? And let's go back to that newb. If they're truly a newb, then they have no idea which aspect of filmmaking they're going to fall in love with. It's possible that they may enter filmmaking thinking that they want to be a director, only to later realize that they actually have a deep passion for foley recording, or audio post, or you-name-it. Is that newb not allowed to discover their passion by dabbling in a little bit of everything?

The IT I remember is one that welcomed newbs. They were allowed to ask the same stupid questions, over and over, and the more experienced members would be there to patiently answer them. Your answer to my question almost makes it sound like you're saying that nobody is allowed to be a newb in audio - the only proper choice is hire somebody else.

I do appreciate you answering my question, though. We may not see eye-to-eye (yet), but I'm glad we can discuss it. Progress doesn't happen by not talking to people.

Best regards, Alcove, you rock! :D
 
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I'm sorry I offended you, it was just an attempt at "light-hearted humor".

On the grounds that you are maybe sincere in your apology, your attempt at light-hearted humour was just poor/misjudged rather than a deliberately veiled insult and there's potential for others to maybe gain something from this thread, I'll address some of the points made:

We're veering off track here, you started asking 1. How we involve other/more audio people on IT, we've also moved into 2. Why newb filmmakers don't appreciate sound and also, 3. How to deal with achieving decent sound with no/little budget when/if there is some appreciation of the importance of sound. While there is some connection between these issues, they are effectively all different/separate issues, each of which really needs it's own thread if we're to do any more than just scratch the surface. One of the connections between these issues is the sheer cost of sound equipment/tools/facilities. This cost makes the cost of all other filmmaking equipment/tools/facilities almost pale into insignificance. It's a cost which prohibits all but a few film courses/educational establishments around the world from exploring much beyond some simple technical basics of sound and, it's a cost which only two theatrical filmmakers (I'm aware of) in the history of filmmaking, have actually taken on themselves. With this fact as a backdrop, we can explore how it's done professionally/commercially and get into one of the questions of: What motivations might there be for film sound audio people to join IT, why newb/amateur filmmakers often ignore sound, how nano budget filmmakers might deal with the situation or any of the other, related points you raised. Which point do you want to discuss?

G
 
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