Is it backseat directing?

[sucramdoow_]

Hey guys,

I'm currently in pre-prod for my second music video for a local band, of which I worked with them on my first music video.

A bit of context: I contacted a local band and asked them if they needed a music video doing for them. They agreed, and I've been working with them for the past 8 months on a music video and generally doing a lot of photography work for them also. Originally I did it as a freebie because I needed to build my portfolio, but it's slowly turned into a paid gig. Probably because the amount of work and effort I've put into it. Since working with them, I've come to see the band as friends. Their band is managed by a business owner, who's invested a lot of money into it. So while they don't have a label, they do have the money that a indie label would offer a new band.

The first music video turned out okay. Currently I haven't heard a negative thing about it (don't know if that's a good thing?) though creatively I wasn't happy with it at all. We had so many problems with it. Our DP dropped out a couple of weeks before shooting, then our original plan fell through because the budget kept overinflating. Then we hired a local prod company to help with the filming part, but they didn't know what they were doing. Then they lied about giving us 6 hours of shooting time, instead giving us 3 hours, so my whole shot list went out the window. Then I had the added pressure of not only coming up with a shot list on the spot but I also had the manager (and sometimes lead singer; who takes a huge creative interest in the bands output in every aspect, including posters etc) backseat directing me in regards to what shots should be got. I considered it just one of those times when pressures were high and everyone was scrambling.

ANYWAY, we're now in pre-prod for the next video, and already my ideas are getting brushed aside in favour for what the lead singer wants. In this instance, consider him the producer. We're going to be shooting in a remote location, so the pressure of getting something will be even higher, because there are more elements at play (including a fight scene). And I have ideas for the two lead actors, and my suggestion for one guy was disregarded because he didn't have a beard, even though I don't see a beard as a deal breaker. It's little things like this that lead me to believe what when we are out in the remote location, I'm going to have him stand beside me at every point (because I'm also camera operating as well) judging every little action I make.

Has anyone else had this?
Is it backseat directing, or is it a typical producer-y attitude?
Anyone have any advice in how to diplomatically tell them to back off?

 

[indietalk]

That's great!

 

[mlesemann]

That's great! And it does sound like he learned to trust you more.

 

[HKB]

Interesting thread, I love walking on eggshells.

Here is the problem, once they went from client to friends they felt like they could provide a little more control.
This is one of the reasons why I will not work for free even if it turns into a paid gig. A small retainer from the
beginning would have helped establish who is calling the shots. Suggestions and collaboration is fine, but if the
time clock was ticking there would be less of it. Eight months is a lot of time to spend on one music video, I
would never have lasted that long. They should feel lucky to have you.

 

[sucramdoow_]

Interesting thread, I love walking on eggshells.

Here is the problem, once they went from client to friends they felt like they could provide a little more control.
This is one of the reasons why I will not work for free even if it turns into a paid gig. A small retainer from the
beginning would have helped establish who is calling the shots. Suggestions and collaboration is fine, but if the
time clock was ticking there would be less of it. Eight months is a lot of time to spend on one music video, I
would never have lasted that long. They should feel lucky to have you.

My partner has said on multiple occasions that they should be paying me more and that they take me for granted.

My opinion is that no one should work for free, but I know if I turned down free work all the time, I wouldn't be making any steps towards making it a success. It's the nature of the business unfortunately. Here in the UK anyway.

It's one of those situations where I want to direct music videos as a career (well, I want to do features, but we all have to have a day job, right), and I feel the only way to do that is to do it for free at the beginning. Then eventually use that showreel for paid stuff.

The band have actually given me a contract now and said "I work for them", but I haven't got paid yet... so I find that funny.

 

[mlesemann]

He also wants to continue working with me,

This, I think, is where you put your foot down re getting paid. Specify how much and also when.

On my last feature, I paid the director & the dp a portion when they signed the contract, a portion the day before we went into production, and the balance for the dp when the shoot wrapped. The director's final payment was divided between when we wrapped production & when the editor finished the director's cut.

 

[buscando]

The band have actually given me a contract now and said "I work for them", but I haven't got paid yet... so I find that funny.

What does that mean, you work for them exclusively?

 

[sucramdoow_]

This, I think, is where you put your foot down re getting paid. Specify how much and also when.

That's what I'm going to do. Also, now that they've introduced a contract into the fold, I'm going to demand a few things so I can safe guard me.

What does that mean, you work for them exclusively?

No, just that they are my client. It's a very basic contract that says I will do work for them, and the footage belongs to them etc. ALTHOUGH, it didn't say anything about pay, and I asked about it and they said they would pay me. I have no reason to distrust them, but if they do end up screwing me over, then I'm going to withhold photos I took for them. And even then, I'm not too fussed. It's annoying, sure, and I do want to get paid. I'm not going to chase it up though. I have too much on my plate as it is.

 

[Lucky Hardwood]

Strictly speaking, you were never working for free. As a photographer, I shoot models and do not charge or pay them. I do the same with hair and makeup artists. Everybody puts in their time, effort, and materials, and we all get images for our respective portfolios. The images are the payment. It is the same with doing music videos for "free" while you are building you reel.

 

[jax_rox]

No, just that they are my client. It's a very basic contract that says I will do work for them, and the footage belongs to them etc. ALTHOUGH, it didn't say anything about pay, and I asked about it and they said they would pay me. I have no reason to distrust them, but if they do end up screwing me over, then I'm going to withhold photos I took for them. And even then, I'm not too fussed. It's annoying, sure, and I do want to get paid. I'm not going to chase it up though. I have too much on my plate as it is.

Be careful of this one. Even if you're happy with the situation as it is right now, you don't want to end up committed to a project of theirs for free and having to turn down paid work for it. Or worse - they pay you a very small amount and you have to turn down much higher paying work because you're in a bind.

You should be up-front about payments: when and how much. If they're not going to pay you, you definitely need to make sure you stipulate what happens if you get offered clashing paid work...

 

[buscando]

So what are you going to ask for in the contract?

 

[sucramdoow_]

Strictly speaking, you were never working for free. As a photographer, I shoot models and do not charge or pay them. I do the same with hair and makeup artists. Everybody puts in their time, effort, and materials, and we all get images for our respective portfolios. The images are the payment. It is the same with doing music videos for "free" while you are building you reel.

Whilst I agree with that to an extent, I think there needs to be a point where that needs to stop. At what point does it become less about the reel and more about the payment for services rendered? That's not rhetorical, I'm keen to hear your opinion as I've been mulling this over all day.

I had a chat with the band and the manager sees it that he's paying to advance my career, because he's "letting" me do work for them. That kind of talk reminds me of the "We'll pay you in exposure".

 

[sucramdoow_]

Be careful of this one. Even if you're happy with the situation as it is right now, you don't want to end up committed to a project of theirs for free and having to turn down paid work for it. Or worse - they pay you a very small amount and you have to turn down much higher paying work because you're in a bind.

You should be up-front about payments: when and how much. If they're not going to pay you, you definitely need to make sure you stipulate what happens if you get offered clashing paid work...

I'm going to do that for the next video for sure. Not this one, as it's nearing the end anyway.

What about other stipulations, like working hours and days? Is that just assumed, or should that be within the contract?

Also, when you're working for a client, do you think you're working FOR them, or are you DOING work for them?

I've run into another issue where my fiancée helped enormously on the shoots, acting as 1st AD and just general runner duties, whilst also putting in money for petrol and such. And for the most recent video, the manager is refusing to compensate for one of the drives. Their argument is that it wasn't agreed upon (even though it was agreed verbally with the lead singer) and that if they pay it, then the band members will also start asking for money for their petrol.

 

[sucramdoow_]

So what are you going to ask for in the contract?

For the next one? I'm going to negotiate pay depending on my responsibilities. If I'm expected to do everything (produce, direct, shoot, edit), then definitely ask for more pay. I want to put in an agreed amount of hours per week, because before it felt like a full time job (which it should be obviously, but this video isn't paying my bills, so I'm having to take on other work).

Also, clear defined responsibilities. I know what the responsibilities of the director are, but I went above and waaay beyond for the video (which I'm happy to do, because I want it to be great), but now they're introducing contracts and professional ways of working, with minimal pay, then I don't want to feel like I'm being taken advantage of.