Indie, CGI, FX, and Epic Filmmaking?

Jack Lynt

Jack Lynt

So where are we at with CGI and special effects? You're no James Cameron. Your little indie is no Avatar. What is available to you on a low, indie budget in terms of traditional and computer aided FX? We hear how wonderful the video revolution is for the little man and woman, but what can you really accomplish in the realms of science fiction, fantasy, horror, supernatural realism, etc? How did they pull off those subtle tricks in Paranormal Activity, for example? What kind of computing power do you need? What sort of real world, and accessible, software do you need to get you where you want to go? Photo Shop? Maya? What? Let's start with do-it-yourself applications. But wait, what if you don't want to rely upon the standard definition, shacky, home video gimmicks that Paranormal Activity and Blair Witch Project got by with? Can you make a Star Wars on a low budget? What is possible? What is still beyond the little man's or woman's reach? Please offer some real world recipes for achieving the visual effects that we crave to incorporate in our films on a low budget. Or, is epic filmmaking still a privelage belonging only to the Big Boys?
 
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Ok, I will give you the real answer. I'm working as a CGI animator since 1999. I work on small project such as Sin City, 300, Racing Stripes and Shark Boy and Lava Girl. I'm now an animation Director for Activision. So I hope my credibility is set.

SO what about epic cgi in indie filmmaking.

Were to start.

Back in the 90s, to make CGI it was impossible for the normal joe. because the computer with the software (softimage 3D at that time) was around 300k. Plus 100 000k for the artist who use the computer. The computers were expensive and VERY slow.

So now the technology is available to a regular joe. This is were the miss lead start. Because its available doesn't mean it's easier. There's no AUTO ANIMATE, AUTO RENDER, AUTO LIGHT, AUTO COMP, button on the @%@$?#146!#$?3$%?3$?3$? software. YOu need talent, knowledge and practice to become average good as an artist. And guess what you are alone... Most project with CGI need various artist in different filed of expertise to accomplish a good job.

So what about the Indie cgi.

Most of what I see, from my professional eyes, suck bad. I can see when it'S totally made by unprofessional.

It'S fun how unprofessional think they are good sometime. I never saw, In my entire life as a animator, good CGI made by regular joe.

If you want to CGI, hire people to make it. And it won't be a 100% bet. Some professionals suck, and they are doing this for 5 years full time...


At the end it's about talent and experience.


But if you want to take that route,

Good luck
 
I'll point out, however, that at one point, the professionals who are very good at it - at one point in their careers looked at the software with fresh eyes and felt overwhelmed by it. At that point, they made a choice to dig in or give up. The only way to get better is to do and fail. DO IT, failure is good for you so long as you learn from it.

I know some carpenters who are very good at working on cars ;)

The people who succeed at 3d and fx stuff, would succeed at whatever they set their minds to because it's a personality thing rather than an available software thing.
 
1st post here. Great forum!!

I'm also a Vfx person like Belanger, and I agree with most of what he said. The cost of the software to do visual effects has dropped dramatically over the years, so it is now within reach of the indie filmmaker. However, as with all tools, it does take some technical know how & experience to get the most from the software. Once you sort of know the ins & outs of effects then, with a bunch of creativity, you can do some pretty large scale effects for very little cost (except time). After Effects is a great place to start. Not only is it fairly user friendly, but there are a TON online tutorials for free. Check out Andrew Kramer's site, it's a goldmine of AE tutorials.

I'd also highly recommend "The DV Rebel's Guide: An All-Digital Approach to Making Killer Action Movies on the Cheap" by Stu Maschwitz which is all about giving your small film a big look & feel through savy post-production. Good luck!
 
That's a great link, Uranium!

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Point taken, Bela: sounds like the regular joe filmmaker may have to hire fx people who know what they're doing. Any info on how that breaks down for a low indie budget? What can an indie filmmaker expect to pay for a low budget fx department --say, professionals doing the work on the side, or whatever?

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Mmmm, droooool, I want me some After Effects! http://tryit.adobe.com/us/cs4/aftereffects/p/?sdid=ETRNY&

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low budget film makers have always been capable of making epics, it just takes creativity.
Click to expand...
--nik000

The people who succeed at 3d and fx stuff, would succeed at whatever they set their minds to because it's a personality thing rather than an available software thing.
Click to expand...
--knightly

That reads like truth.

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Looks like a helpful book, Boz.
 
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oint taken, Bela: sounds like the regular joe filmmaker may have to hire fx people who know what they're doing. Any info on how that breaks down for a low indie budget? What can an indie filmmaker expect to pay for a low budget fx department --say, professionals doing the work on the side, or whatever?
Click to expand...

Tricky question.

A free lance artist with some kind of experience will ask around 250 to 500$ a day.

Having said that , they can be very friendly if you are low on catch, most artist do it for the passion and the challenge. Then you can work out a "forfait price" meaning 1 price to do all the job. Now it can be really cheap. I will say for 5000$ you can have an artist do quite a lot, depend on the complexity (No, he won't do a Gollum rip off).

But the best is to ask. Sometime, if the project is interesting and fun, they will do it for free.
 
The guys who did the short feature "Broken" (who are on these boards) have put together a SFX team targeting the indie budget.
 
Visual Effects are not just computers and software..

I think the little touches, that are now expected to look perfect are within the realm of indie.
Bullet hits, post lighting for mood, FFWD action, lens flare etc..

Sure, big flashy CGI is about talent and time (always was and always will be) bu the daily grind of visual effects is made much more accessible via digital and good software..
 
My philosophy is that unless you can afford to get it done really, really, really, really well (at LEAST as good as a moderate budget Hollywood film) leave it alone. The CGI looks like utter garbage on most movies with 40 million dollar budgets, it's SURE gonna look like crap on a 40K budget. That being said, if you know somebody, happen to have the skills yourself, or whatever go for it. Otherwise, find another way to tell the story. The only way I'd ever use CGI is if when the audience looked at it they were totally stumped on how we had none it, and the thought "CGI" never crossed their mind.
 
wheatgrinder said:
Visual Effects are not just computers and software..

I think the little touches, that are now expected to look perfect are within the realm of indie.
Bullet hits, post lighting for mood, FFWD action, lens flare etc..

Sure, big flashy CGI is about talent and time (always was and always will be) bu the daily grind of visual effects is made much more accessible via digital and good software..
Click to expand...



Agreed, little touches, good use of Post visual effects. Trying mega-effects, bad idea.
 
To the OP:

There are limits to what we can do with our talent and budgets. The higher budget films are able to pay many different artists to work on layers and layers of CGI and FX. Unless you and your friends are Weta-level skilled, and you have years to complete a project, I don't see an indie (low/no/micro) budget film competing with LotR or Avatar...no way...not yet...maybe not ever.

Think about it...these companies are hiring the best and brightest. There are a lot of people that can create pretty solid work in Maya...but there are few at the Weta/Pixar level that aren't either employed already, or have no interest in doing indie film.

Weta has hundreds of super talented CG artists creating digital content for their films...how many people do you think you could score for your micro-budget project? One...two...maybe three. Creating anything close to LotR would take that many artists years to complete something that massive...and I can promise it won't be as polished.

I know of several CG artists that worked completely alone on their own CG shorts...and it took years (render time alone when you don't have a render farm will take months and months). If you can find the film 'f8'...that is a good example. It's hard to find, but it's unbelievable high quality professional CG, all done by one dude--it took years and that was only a short.

As for programs...I suggest Maya or Max...Photoshop, FC, AE, and a bunch of plugins/programs like Flame and such. You can do it on a beafed up Mac or PC...as long as you layer everything appropriately and you understand rendering is going to take a loooong time. But it won't cost you a fortune to create good effects...you can build your own PC for under $2000 that can handle multiple apps open, bridging and modeling and FX...you may not be able to have test playbacks as high quality as other workstations...but it will run just fine.

We can make some great stuff with today's tech and savvy...but you need a real budget to create feature length films like LotR.

Take it easy.
 
Great, enlightening, and sobering info.

At forty, I don't have the time, and more importantly the brain power, to become Mr. CG Compositor, Modeler, Animator, etc. I like the idea of the Broken FX house. The question does become, though, can a shoestring budget afford them?

So, is the conclusion that, for the most part, our lot should think in terms of "traditional," creative, by-the-seat-of-your-pants SFX?

I don't think that's a sad conclusion, much. Do you? So, we won't be producing any CG Gollums or theater shaking spaceship battle sequences. Fine. We have to stick with more "intimate" filmmaking. That's not Hollywood friendly, but we're doing it for the passion, right, not for Hollywood?

But how difficult is it to do things like morphing eyecolor for supernatual characters, CGI backgrounds instead of painted ones, etc? One thing that really bugs me when dreaming about filmmaking is not having a sound stage -or money for!- for building real, large sets -I had hoped that CGI would free the little woman and man from the need.

Hey, one of my favorite films is The Last Temptation of Christ... and perhaps even more so the commentaries on the Criterion Collection LD and DVD. As relatively small as it was, Scorsese had a larger budget than any of us are ever likely to see, but it's an inspiring lesson on how even a supernatural story can be well told and presented without Hollywood style CGI.
 
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