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Indians

I plan on writing a psychological thriller titled "Jaw" about a group of live and spirit Navajo Indians angered by a pack of mountain climbers who illegally climb a sacred rock formation in the New Mexico desert.
I've always been fascinated with Native Americans and their history in the new land. They are commonly portrayed as the antagonists and seen as savage groups of headhunters.
And why wouldn't they be?
I've seen many a horror film, and I've noticed that there are an amount that base the story on Native Americans.
The Shining-very descretely, but it is implied that I why the hotel is haunted.
Poltergeist-turns out to be a plot twist in the end.
Pet Semetary-well known that the cemetary was an Indian Burial Ground.
All these films use the "Indian Burial Ground" backstory, but none of them actually address the Indians directly.
I'm curious to find a film of Indian Spirits. Even live Indians, but with live indians I'd like to see something recent that is not a western.
I'd appreciate any feedback.
 
Creepshow 2 had a segment about an Indian statue teaching the younger generation a few bloody lessons about respect. Not a western.

Windtalkers, maybe?

Hmm, hard one.
 
Unfortunately the only thing that comes to mind is "Thunderheart".
It's a western but for "scary-shit" I seem to remember "The Missing" being pretty intense.
You might want to read up more than anything though.. from my limited knowledge, in that particular area, nothing is as crazy/intense/scary as the truth. Plus with reading up youll probably get a lot more incite into why exactly a Navajo might be angered.. and won't have to rely on a 2 dimensional "because injuns don' like their sacred things bein' climbed on!"
 
Plus with reading up youll probably get a lot more incite into why exactly a Navajo might be angered.. and won't have to rely on a 2 dimensional "because injuns don' like their sacred things bein' climbed on!"

Well in New Mexico it is illegal to climb Shiprock because of it's religious and historical significance to the Navajo people. It is mentioned in many Najavo myths and legends. I know what you mean, it sounding cliche that somebody is haunted for upsetting some spirit. It's more psychological than just vengeful spirits going around and doing what vengeful spirits do.
 
Watch "Dead Man". Watch it now. It's all about the journey into death, and really aware/respectful of native american beliefs/traditions. Not really similar to what you're doing, but it'll give you some insight into some of the spirituality involved. Understanding beliefs is the first step into spinning into something scary (where native beliefs clash with judeo-christian beliefs).
 
I plan on writing a psychological thriller titled "Jaw" about a group of live and spirit Navajo Indians angered by a pack of mountain climbers who illegally climb a sacred rock formation in the New Mexico desert.
I've always been fascinated with Native Americans and their history in the new land. They are commonly portrayed as the antagonists and seen as savage groups of headhunters.
And why wouldn't they be? ...
I'd appreciate any feedback.

I guess a few things bother me with the question. American Indians have been villified by a dominant culture. On the other hand, the atrocities committed by the dominant culture are equally horrific. My intent is not to politicize your post but to say append a comment like "... And why wouldn't they be?" raises the issue for me that you want to continue the tradition of misrepresenting beliefs and customs.

I would suggest reading--yeah reading--some of the works by Tony Hillerman who writes some very psychological criminal novels that often take place on the Navaho reservation. It gives good insight into living thought and often incorporates--as you are proposing--the spiritual elements of the Navaho nation. You might also pick up "Fourth World of the Hopi".

Try to put yourself in the same mindset. What if tomorrow you were told, you're being moved to the other side of the country. Pack only what you can carry because you'll be walking under armed escort. Oh, and by the way, you're no longer American so you don't have any rights. Yeah, we know your grandparents were buried in this beautiful mausoleum but we need it for a parking lot for the bank. Oh, I'm sorry, this grocery store is only for my kind. Your kind needs to use the corner store down the block. Sorry if it's poorly stocked.

When viewed from a certain perspective, it's easy to understand the animosity arising from multiple instances. As late as the 1960s, the government split up families. Imagine being ripped from your family at six and put in foster care in another state. American Indians have been brutal at times. Looking at Europeans in warfare, they have been equally brutal. To say that European atrocities of the French Revolution, Spanish Civil War, World Wars I and II are somehow "civilized" while those of American Indians were less so is hypocritical. The recent actions at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo raise questions about our own American ethic of following the Geneva Convention.

Most of us have not been called upon to make that level of sacrifice. During WW II, thousands of Japanese American citizens were relocated to interment camps losing everything, sometimes being separated from family. The same for the Jews in many countries throughout European history. The same for blacks in American history. If you plan on making it a "psychological thriller", do some legitimate research into the legends and history. Don't rely on "movie mythology". That's like using Flash Gordon as a history of the US space program.

The Navaho, Hopi, Apache, and other nations have a long history worth exploring and understanding. What are their creation myths? What is the role of Grandmother Spider or the Corn Twins? In weaving the story of conflict, you need to understand both sides. If you lived in New England and had a family tombstone that dated back to 1683 and someone came along and permanently defaced it, it would be like someone destroying a part of your family history. Extend that back even further into the past, and you increase the sense of family and desecration. What makes Shipman sacred? What is the role of the Kachina? Understand the symbolism and custom and you craft a far more interesting psychological thriller. Learn some Navaho, visit the reservation and talk to Navaho who can help you.

All these films use the "Indian Burial Ground" backstory, but none of them actually address the Indians directly. I'm curious to find a film of Indian Spirits. Even live Indians, but with live indians I'd like to see something recent that is not a western.
Why are there laws against grave robbing? What is the penalty for going into a "regular" cemetery and exhuming a body? What motivated Americans to protect their dead? Maybe you need to ask friends and family if you can pay a stranger to go dig up Aunt Millie. I'm sure we could use any gold she happens to have lying on her, right? Hack off the finger if it isn't swollen goo yet.

It's easy to write a cheap rip-off horror. Look at "Bone Eater" and the ones mentioned. It's one thing to invoke an element (Windago) or aspect (shapeshifting) from a culture, and quite another to address what it means to the culture believably without legitimate, authentic contact. "Dances with Wolves" and "Little Big Man" the book and movies actually do try to legitimately represent the Plains Indians and their interactions.

Please realize that not everyone on this list fits into a homogeneous world view. If you had said "Yeah, all Muslims are portrayed as terrorists. ... And why wouldn't they be?" or "All white American teens are portrayed as spoiled, emo, rich kids with too much time. ... And why wouldn't they be?" or ... It is not only disrespectful, it unjustly lumps people (i.e., stereotypes). And if you or someone you know is in that targeted group, it's hurtful.

I understand the nature of your question is sincere. The answer you want will not be found in the movies but by actively engaging in contact and research.
 
If you are into reading I would suggest "Tathum Mound" by Piers Anthony. His daughter was a part of the dig that uncovered the singularly unusual burial site in Florida, so he wrote a fiction to explain its origins. He really did his research, so besides being entertaining it's educational, at least to the point where it gives you a lot of places to start your own research.
 
Good post, FantasySciFi, but I'm guessing PassionPulp wasn't implying anything derogatory rather referencing the sad, and prejudicial, history of the Indian stereotype within film, and how this methodology seems to be what's 'expected'. Being of Irish descent, I could just as easily substitute Irish and cite many biased film examples. Great post, though. :)

OP: I'm working on a serial killer/psychological thriller script within the Lakota community. While mine is not a traditional western, I've deliberately used motifs from this genre to draw philosophical and stylistic parallels to earlier works. I've also drawn from one particular Plains (Sihasapa, or Blackfoot Sioux)Indian myth to paint my main characters, although they are, indeed, contemporary.


I like Alcove's suggestions of fictionalizing and riffing off of a real event/discovery. Makes me think of what someone could do with a story such as the *alleged* exhumation of reburial of Sitting Bull's remains.

In 1953, a group of South Dakota businessmen, backed by Sitting Bull's descendants, including Mr LaPointe's mother, raided the burial ground and took what they believed was Sitting Bull's coffin 55 miles south to the new site. But many believe they moved the wrong remains.

The mystery deepened recently when a descendant of a Canadian tribal ally of Sitting Bull claimed that the chief was secretly buried in Canada, on his own orders, to forestall battles over his bones.

So where is he now? At the Fort Yates burial ground last week, Malcolm See Walker, a local, was paying his respects. Asked whether he believed that Sitting Bull's remains were there, he replied: "That depends on you. But his spirit is everywhere. That's what is important."

Seems like one could write a thriller around this while being fully respectful.
 
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Ahhhh, so it's like The Hills Have Eyes? But instead of hideous, humanoid creatures you'll be using Native Americans. Are you using all stereotypes? Will the mountaineers be fat, stupid white people?
 
I guess a few things bother me with the question. American Indians have been villified by a dominant culture. On the other hand, the atrocities committed by the dominant culture are equally horrific. My intent is not to politicize your post but to say append a comment like "... And why wouldn't they be?" raises the issue for me that you want to continue the tradition of misrepresenting beliefs and customs.

I would suggest reading--yeah reading--some of the works by Tony Hillerman who writes some very psychological criminal novels that often take place on the Navaho reservation. It gives good insight into living thought and often incorporates--as you are proposing--the spiritual elements of the Navaho nation. You might also pick up "Fourth World of the Hopi".

Try to put yourself in the same mindset. What if tomorrow you were told, you're being moved to the other side of the country. Pack only what you can carry because you'll be walking under armed escort. Oh, and by the way, you're no longer American so you don't have any rights. Yeah, we know your grandparents were buried in this beautiful mausoleum but we need it for a parking lot for the bank. Oh, I'm sorry, this grocery store is only for my kind. Your kind needs to use the corner store down the block. Sorry if it's poorly stocked.

When viewed from a certain perspective, it's easy to understand the animosity arising from multiple instances. As late as the 1960s, the government split up families. Imagine being ripped from your family at six and put in foster care in another state. American Indians have been brutal at times. Looking at Europeans in warfare, they have been equally brutal. To say that European atrocities of the French Revolution, Spanish Civil War, World Wars I and II are somehow "civilized" while those of American Indians were less so is hypocritical. The recent actions at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo raise questions about our own American ethic of following the Geneva Convention.

Most of us have not been called upon to make that level of sacrifice. During WW II, thousands of Japanese American citizens were relocated to interment camps losing everything, sometimes being separated from family. The same for the Jews in many countries throughout European history. The same for blacks in American history. If you plan on making it a "psychological thriller", do some legitimate research into the legends and history. Don't rely on "movie mythology". That's like using Flash Gordon as a history of the US space program.

The Navaho, Hopi, Apache, and other nations have a long history worth exploring and understanding. What are their creation myths? What is the role of Grandmother Spider or the Corn Twins? In weaving the story of conflict, you need to understand both sides. If you lived in New England and had a family tombstone that dated back to 1683 and someone came along and permanently defaced it, it would be like someone destroying a part of your family history. Extend that back even further into the past, and you increase the sense of family and desecration. What makes Shipman sacred? What is the role of the Kachina? Understand the symbolism and custom and you craft a far more interesting psychological thriller. Learn some Navaho, visit the reservation and talk to Navaho who can help you.


Why are there laws against grave robbing? What is the penalty for going into a "regular" cemetery and exhuming a body? What motivated Americans to protect their dead? Maybe you need to ask friends and family if you can pay a stranger to go dig up Aunt Millie. I'm sure we could use any gold she happens to have lying on her, right? Hack off the finger if it isn't swollen goo yet.

It's easy to write a cheap rip-off horror. Look at "Bone Eater" and the ones mentioned. It's one thing to invoke an element (Windago) or aspect (shapeshifting) from a culture, and quite another to address what it means to the culture believably without legitimate, authentic contact. "Dances with Wolves" and "Little Big Man" the book and movies actually do try to legitimately represent the Plains Indians and their interactions.

Please realize that not everyone on this list fits into a homogeneous world view. If you had said "Yeah, all Muslims are portrayed as terrorists. ... And why wouldn't they be?" or "All white American teens are portrayed as spoiled, emo, rich kids with too much time. ... And why wouldn't they be?" or ... It is not only disrespectful, it unjustly lumps people (i.e., stereotypes). And if you or someone you know is in that targeted group, it's hurtful.

I understand the nature of your question is sincere. The answer you want will not be found in the movies but by actively engaging in contact and research.

Thanks for all the advice, but I kind of only aske for movie suggestions. Not to learn about the Navajo Indians, but to see other people did it. To tell you the truth I didn't read half of this. But I appreciate it.
 
Ahhhh, so it's like The Hills Have Eyes? But instead of hideous, humanoid creatures you'll be using Native Americans. Are you using all stereotypes? Will the mountaineers be fat, stupid white people?

I found this difficult to coincide with my question. But no, it's not like The Hills Have Eyes.
You have almost no perception of what my final plot will be.
I don't care if the plot is stereotypical. It's my idea, and you shouldn't be trying to one-up me to make me feel bad about my idea.
I would appreciate it if next time you'd actually have a logical input to the thread instead of a smart-ass condescending remark.
 
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