INCREDIBLY conflicted about film school (please help?)

[Liv]

I'm coming to a big milestone in my life. Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read about my situation

I'm a 17 year old female approaching the end of my junior year. Most of my classmates are applying for college, and I haven't even started. This is for two reasons: one, I want to be a filmmaker/screenwriter, and two, I've lately picked up a very negative and cynical attitude towards school in general due to a poisonous school environment (extremely competitive, narcissistic, AP obsessed kids, and I stick out like a sore thumb). I am determined to avoid debt like the plague, because I know it kills dreams. I have a twin sister, and we both have the same career aspirations. We want to break into the industry together, and I currently don't see a future (at least in the next five years) where we are separated. She's my second half. I have major anxiety issues that make being apart from her an extremely distressing experience

Here's where things get tricky. My sister, who has been treated for depression and has motivational issues, is doubting the no-college route. We've been clashing a lot lately, and my solid opinions have even been shaken. I'll give you a short summary on both sides

MY SISTER
My sister wants to go to film school to escape a negative home environment (my father is a procrastinator who can't get anything done; we have no blinds, a junk car, and a broken TV stand that have gone unfixed for three years, because he has too many emotional issues to do anything about it). She thinks college would fix her motivational issues, and that she isn't "strong enough" to go the total indie route. She doesn't think she has the social skills to get out there and make her career happen through sheer grit. She's also convinced that film school is the only place you can meet other filmmakers, get access to equipment, and make connections

ME
I want to avoid debt by any means necessary. I think filmmaking is a career that requires risk, and risks can't be taken if you have debt hanging over you. I don't want to bankrupt my parents, and if I'm really not good enough or not cut out to be a filmmaker/screenwriter, I'd like to find out NOW rather than after going through four long years of film school. I think all forms of higher education are too expensive nowadays, and I just don't think the experience is worth it. It all seems like a propaganda ridden, money siphoning machine. I know how bleak job prospects are (especially for filmmakers)

I just don't know what to do. I haven't told my parents about any of this. I've been rigorously screenwriting for three years, reading $200 worth of books, and they have no idea. I feel so much stress, pressure, and negativity every day, so much so that it feels like I'm drowning and there's no point in even trying. It feels like failure is inevitable. Life just seems so hard right now, I sometimes wonder if it's worth it. The ONLY circumstance in which I would ever consider going to film school is if I could graduate with less than $5,000 worth of debt; although, a small part of me feels like any school that cheap just isn't good quality (I don't need/want state of the art, but I don't want complete crap either. I could get that quality education for free on my own)

So, I guess what I'm asking is this. Do you agree with my sisters point of view, or mine? Should I go to film school? Do you think there's any point in going to film school?. Basically, any advice on what I should do with my situation would be immensely helpful

Thanks so much for any input I'm just completely lost here

 

[ChimpPhobiaFilms]

Which film school are you thinking about, and what is your previous experience?

 

[photon]

If you have financial concerns, I'd go and study something that pays the bills while continuing to write and make films. Depending on the school, you could also minor in film and make contacts with the people majoring in film.

 

[Liv]

Which film school are you thinking about, and what is your previous experience?

I haven't looked into it. All I know is that when I look up CHEAP, small liberal arts schools in my area, the results are always nil. It seems like everything costs 15k+ a year

 

[Liv]

If you have financial concerns, I'd go and study something that pays the bills while continuing to write and make films. Depending on the school, you could also minor in film and make contacts with the people majoring in film.

I considered that, but the debt problem still remains. Also, plan B stealthily slips to be plan A, and before you know it, you're putting filmmaking on the back burner for something else. I don't want to devote my time and energy to a major that would take my time away from my actual goals

 

[photon]

the debt problem still remains

You got to spend money to make money. If you pick the right degree, it'll be a good investment.

time and energy to a major that would take my time away from my actual goals

Maybe you are overestimating how much time it takes to study in college. There should be plenty of free time, even more than in high school.

Edit: Even in medical school, Michael Crichton had time to write novels.

 

[ItDonnedOnMe]

It feels like failure is inevitable.

It is.

At least, that is, if you're taking on anything challenging enough to be worthwhile.

The trick is to understand that failure isn't an endpoint - it's just another step in the process. If you don't fail at some point you're probably not pushing yourself hard enough. And when you do fail you don't just stop - you take from the failure what you can learn from it, start moving forward again, and be ready to keep failing until you get it right.

 

[Liv]

Maybe you are overestimating how much time it takes to study in college. There should be plenty of free time, even more than in high school

Really? How much would you say? (on average)

 

[photon]

Really? How much would you say? (on average)

As much as during high school or more if the lectures aren't mandatory.

Edit: Can't be more specific since there are many factors involved like the major, how fast you can study on your own, the attendance policy and the country etc.

 

[David.rhsc]

So, I guess what I'm asking is this. Do you agree with my sisters point of view, or mine? Should I go to film school? Do you think there's any point in going to film school?. Basically, any advice on what I should do with my situation would be immensely helpful

Thanks so much for any input I'm just completely lost here

To throw a wrench in your works - I don't agree with either you or your sister. I am of the opinion that the "film schools" you see advertised on television and the internet are either "on-set employee factories" or scams. The only "worth-while" film schools are at the graduate level - programs like Tisch, AFI, etc. Well, I suppose there are a couple exceptions as I can think of one particular "on-set employee factory" that actually does a very, very good job for students that work their asses off building contacts while there and who can afford to attend.

Unsurprisingly this is a question that gets asked a lot, and in the last thread I remember on the subject there was much debate. People started throwing around the names of all these famous directors who "didn't go to film school," neglecting to mention that the majority of the examples given went to College/University/Post-Secondary education ... for something else.

Forget "film school," but go to School. Don't declare a major right away, you'll have time to pick one and probably won't be forced to for your entire freshman year, unless things have change dramatically. Study things that interest you in addition to film making, the broader perspective will serve you more as a story-teller. Hell, study literature or English, or Psychology (since you are interested in screenwriting) There will still be elective and extra-curricular ways for you to work on your writing and other film making crafts and you will be vastly more likely to find gainful employment in any industry, including writing/directing films. The study would not distract from your goal, but make it more possible to achieve. If, during this time, you or your sister decide that you still want to go to film school, apply for graduate programs. Sure the big name ones are very difficult to get into, but they are not the only game around either. RISD, Columbia, the obligatory SoCal triad of UC's, and so on, but at the graduate level, not undergrad.

Noting your location, if cost is an issue the California Junior College system has an outstanding track record of transferring students to 4 year institutions with equally outstanding graduation rates. Or it had, it has been many years since I've paid attention to such things.

FWIW: Leaving college my freshman year when I was 18 is one of my big regrets in life. Going back to college in your mid-late 20s just isn't the same experience. It's still valuable (otherwise I would not have done it), but it's not the same - especially the relationships built with classmates, since the majority are many years younger. I'm speaking as a Film major (and JC transfer, btw). Personally, I don't regret it at all because it was a theory/critical studies/independent production program rather than an "on-set employee factory" and I got the opportunity to shoot (at my own expense) thousands of feet of 16mm film.

Having said that, I do think I would have been better served by doing undergraduate in something else, working on my shooting skills on the side, and then applying at the graduate level to every premiere program I could find. Of course since I got my BA only a few months before my 30th birthday, I might have been kidding myself had I tried grad school.

While I know college isn't for everyone, if you are at all a decent student (and your post implies that you are) you should really go. The employment statistics for secondary vs. no secondary education are staggering and only getting worse.

It is.

At least, that is, if you're taking on anything challenging enough to be worthwhile.

The trick is to understand that failure isn't an endpoint - it's just another step in the process. If you don't fail at some point you're probably not pushing yourself hard enough. And when you do fail you don't just stop - you take from the failure what you can learn from it, start moving forward again, and be ready to keep failing until you get it right.

Wicked brilliant. Sometimes it gives me a sad that we can't sticky things like this.

 

[kjones]

Liv,

You seem like a thoughtful person who is trying to make a good decision that doesn't impact too heavily on her family. You also have the desire to go on this next adventure with your sister.

I fear, however, that you've pinned yourself into a corner with the why's and why not's, and hence your conundrum. Going into filmmaking is indeed a risk, but you are young enough to absorb the costs, even if you find something you like better along the way, and it's risking big that can bring big rewards. It's a tough business with many, many people trying to make a living...

Couple of ideas:
- Consider community colleges that have a film program/courses (with good introductory course teachers) but at much lower cost than the "name" schools, especially if they have a course that gets your hands and heads into the game. You're smart enough to realize that you want to learn and try it first. The nice thing about film school is that you meet other filmmakers and it's a condensed form of education (in comparison of learning on your own in the time your life has available).
- Speak to your parents. If they can help financially, great; if not, you'll know it's on you and your sister's shoulders and that will help your decision-making. They might be thrilled at your sincerity and desire.

Wishing you the best of luck, and remember, if you find something better along the way, it... is... okay. Your thoughtfulness is inspiring, but beware of getting "stuck" between all the issues (I've been there).

 

[FantasyFilmProductions]

It is.

At least, that is, if you're taking on anything challenging enough to be worthwhile.

The trick is to understand that failure isn't an endpoint - it's just another step in the process. If you don't fail at some point you're probably not pushing yourself hard enough. And when you do fail you don't just stop - you take from the failure what you can learn from it, start moving forward again, and be ready to keep failing until you get it right.

This is so completely bang on. This is easily one of the greatest lessons you can ever learn in life.

Experience and knowledge grow almost completely from failure, be it your own or others.

And in my experience, it is better to live one minute doing what you love, then a lifetime doing anything else.

I would rather fail a million times doing what I love, then succeed even once at anything else.

 

[Sweetie]

I am determined to avoid debt like the plague, because I know it kills dreams.

Debt combined with a lack of success will kill your future, not your dreams.

risks can't be taken if you have debt hanging over you.

Not true.

feels like I'm drowning and there's no point in even trying.

Wait until Rayw and myself get into the statistics about your chances of succeeding. You'll feel even worse then.

Life just seems so hard right now, I sometimes wonder if it's worth it.

There's a saying. Never wish your life was easier. Wish that you were better.

Do you agree with my sisters point of view, or mine?

I'd hate to be the one to tell you, but I think both point of views are wrong. The result may be correct, but the reasons behind those choices are wrong... well at least from my point of view.

First, in regards to debt. There's good debt and bad debt. Bad debt is basically borrowing money on depreciating assets. Things like Clothes, a car, a philosophy degree... they're all examples of bad debt. Debt for appreciating assets like Real Estate, some stocks/shares/investments are good. You need to decide which side your degree fits into. If you're going to procrastinate or fail to do anything with the degree, then it'll be bad debt. If you're going to be able to leverage it into a higher paying career (preferably at a faster rate than the alternative) then it's probably a good debt. It's really for you to decide. Strangers can only offer their opinion.

For your sisters (for a lack of a better word) issues, college isn't necessarily going to fix them. Unmotivated people often stay unmotivated people when they go to college. She has to break out of that by her own choice and actions. College isn't going to kick her ass, she has to do it herself. On top of that, what you get out of film school has more to do with what you put in than the school itself.

Needing film school to gain access to filmmakers/equipment/connections is complete BULLSH*T. Jump on to Facebook, get involved with actor groups, meet up with local filmmakers, develop talent, borrow people's gear and so on. There are so many people out there with gear that you can beg, borrow or steal (hell, they may even come with the gear to help).

From your perspective, whether film school offers you value for money has more to do with what you're going to get out of it in comparison to what you put in, more than the cost it is compared with the cost it used to be. It was a while ago, but I think my tuition was less than $5k. Was it worth it? At the time no, I didn't use it in time before what I learned became obsolete.

This is something that most people don't consider, but getting a trade is an alternative. At least in my country, there is a huge demand for those who have a trade. Instead of costing you, it puts money in your pocket. It's also good money once you're done. If you pick the right trade, you can try to gravitate towards the jobs that put you in the film business. It's probably going to be a little harder being female, but may be worth considering as an option.

 

[Lucky Hardwood]

I seem to recall having seen this movie before. Why don't you and your sister piggy back film school? If you are identical twins, dress and style your selves the same and you can both attend for the cost of one tuition. ;-D For the record, I am not suggesting that you and/or your sister defraud the school or do anything illegal/immoral/against school rules. I am simply pointing out that, were one so inclined, non-traditional options exist for identical twins.

 

[jax_rox]

]
Needing film school to gain access to filmmakers/equipment/connections is complete BULLSH*T. Jump on to Facebook, get involved with actor groups, meet up with local filmmakers, develop talent, borrow people's gear and so on. There are so many people out there with gear that you can beg, borrow or steal (hell, they may even come with the gear to help).

IMO, this is very much subjective and very much depends on the school you're in, and the type of work you want to be doing.

As far as I see it, jumping on Facebook and meeting up with people with equipment is not really the right choice. The issue with associating with amateurs is that you end up thinking what you're doing is how it's really done and that hurts your career prospects more than not knowing anything - it's easier to teach someone how to do something properly in the first place than have to have them unlearn their habits and then teach them new ones.

As far as access to equipment, there's a big difference between borrowing someone's 5D or even Blackmagic and using, say, the $200,000 Alexa package and $100,000 grip package at the film school I went to.

Of course, the argument could be made that a lot of film schools cost upwards of $40k/year and you could rent out equipment/make a feautre etc. for that kind of money.

If you're that way inclined, it's not necessarily a bad way to go. But IMO, someone who's never directed before is more likely to waste that money on a film. Whilst your projects at school may be shorter, there's a lot more of them, and you're still getting use of equipment and labour that you'd be paying for otherwise.\

The way I see it - if you want to work in this industry, you either go to a decent film school, or you start working on set.
Even if you decide to immediately start working on set, you can put aside the money that you might have wanted to use to make a film, and make it later on. Having a few years experience on set, not only means you'll be getting some sort of income for that time, but also means your film is likely to be better, and more successful when you eventually make it.

Film school is not necessary, and you do get out of it what you put in. But it can be incredibly beneficial, and teach you a heck of a lot.

My advice would certainly not be to skip school and then just attempt to make short films on your own, shooting on a DSLR with your friends as actors.

As always, YMMV.

What do you want to do in your film career? There's so many options available to you - or do you simply wnat to be Director/s?

 

[ItDonnedOnMe]

Your profile says you're from Northern California - are you at all familiar with/close to DeAnza College?

http://www.deanza.edu

It's a community college in the San Jose area that's had a very strong film/television department for decades now. For instance, they've got 30 classes scheduled for the spring semester - including several screen writing courses, 16/35mm film production, etc.

As a CA resident your tuition would be $31 a unit. If you're ambitious you can max out at about 19-20 units/semester - so a semesters total tuition would be $750 or less after various student fees. So for about $3000 over a 2-year period you can both knock out your general education requirements (which will transfer to either a UC or State University) and get a real education in filmmaking.

This will give you real experience, training, practice and access to equipment. You'll meet and work with other people who are interested in and learning the same stuff you are. You'll be prepared for a university if you choose to continue on to one, and it'll be as academically challenging as you choose to make it. You'll likely come out of it with little or no debt, and after a couple years there you should have a much better idea of where you want to go next with your education & career.

 

[Alcove Audio]

The first thing that you must do is decide upon your goals; what do you want to do? Direct? Write? Take on a more technical but creative aspect like being a DP/Cinematographer, editor, something in the sound field like a PSM, sound editor or mixer, or.....?

I'm an old school kind of guy; you work your way up slowly and steadily. The old "Hollywood" apprentice system worked very well for many, many years, and still works today. And today there are many more opportunities with hundreds of cable channels, numerous advertising agencies and the internet, which is still young and growing.

Aside from my many "real" jobs - everything from pumping gasoline and food service to retail sales and corporate work (where I worked my way up from part-time telephone operator to Operations Manager in three years for an shareholder equities interface firm) - I spent the first 25+ years of my life as a stage and studio musician, switched over to music recording engineer and then migrated to audio post. As a musician I played dive bars, then the hotel circuit, then "big" clubs and finally was musical director for a very well-known Oldies group. In addition I did lots of studio gigs plus arranging and coaching work. When working in the studio I kibitzed with the engineers, and had a project studio of my own where I worked with singer/songwriters and the occasional band. When arthritis curtailed my performing career my studio knowledge led to full-time work as a music recording engineer, and 12 years ago I migrated to audio post.

When I got into audio post I learned by being hands-on, talking to more experienced folks, doing huge amounts of reading, and attending seminars and focused courses. But the best learning came when I freelanced at other facilities. I would do "donkey work" like digitizing old analog files, cataloging sound files and eventually got to do some real sound editing/designing at those facilities. The education came when, my days work completed, I would sit in a chair and watch/listen to experienced pros in action.

If you want to write, then write. Write a lot. Write for several hours every day. Attend writers seminars and peer groups. Read LOTS of books. Participate in forums like Indietalk, and there are others that are exclusively for screenwriters.

If you want to direct my suggestion is to work on other film sets. Do any job you can get - go'fer, PA, driver, 99th assistant anything; even negative lessons are good lessons. Too many fledgling indie filmmakers think that they can do it all. And yes, that is possible, but first you have to learn it all, and there is just too much for one person to absorb quickly, if at all.

After all of that you may find that you do want to go to film school, but then you will have learned what you need to learn. In fact, knowing that there is always something new to learn is one mark of a professional; another is learning from the mistakes of others, which is why I suggest working for others before you "work" for yourself.

I wish you well.

Uncle Bob will stop rambling now.....

 

[NickClapper]

Higher education might seem like it's going to saddle you with dead, but the reality of our society at the moment is that people with degrees have much improved earning potential that easily offsets the cost of the education. Of course, there's an element of risk, but if you have the chance to get a degree then you should definitely not see it as a burden, in the long term.

Film school... some people on here advocate it but, because this is an indie forum, most people here have gone down, and advise others to go down, the 'indie' route.

I'm indifferent, but I am a strong advocate of going to college. Not least because it's really fun and an atmosphere that is totally conducive to ambition and dreams but without the pressures of professional life. I haven't been to film school (other than a couple of month course a few years ago) but I imagine that the environment is much like any other university.

My advice, which should be taken for the $0.00002 it is: go to college, major in something like literature, giving you a degree that you can use, throughout your life, as a fallback, and then you can either do a Film masters, or head into the film industry with a fairly useful degree to back you up.

 

[Metrostar]

Or you could do what I did: Work at one shitty, low-paying job after another and partying for 20 years, before eventually pissing on the film school idea and learning everything you can from the internet, books and forums and buying a cheap set-up and going out there and doing it.

 

[MiniJamesW]

So many people here have offered so much great advice, but I just have one question. What about financial aid? Have you checked the net price of any of the schools? If so, I would suggest doing so. I'm a senior this year applying to several schools, and I have found that the prices are a lot lower than they seem. I mean even USC gives 100% financial need met (with lots of the funding coming from grants) so I would try to look at the real cost of schools for you before throwing away that option altogether.

Still, film school is not for everyone. I personally am going to study something else for my undergraduate studies, but I'm going to be involved as much as I can with film during those years and develop stories I want to tell. Later I'll decide whether to take graduate studies in Film Production or to dive right into the film industry.

No matter what you decide though, just remember to keep sight of your goal and your dream. Cinema is such a huge field, and even with limited employment you can find a place for yourself as long as you work for it. Just remember to always work for what you are passionate about.