sound I was hired to do sound for a TV production, what do I do!

[harmonica44]

Well not exactly a TV production. Someone who works at the network, wants to make a pilot to a documentary show, which he can show the Board (as he put worded it), and hopes they will like it and want more.

But this is a TV network where I live and I was told the Board has RICH people on it. I told the guy who hired me, not get me but a sound person who knows a lot more about it, compared to my very beginner-ish level. He said that he wants me, cause I have good equipment compared to others, and that he knows me, and know I will commit professionally. I also owed him and I couldn't say no. And he talked me into saying yes, also cause it's a paying gig and I will get my foot in the door, or at least some kind of door. He will get his foot in too, if we help each other out.

But I feel that I am really not the right person for the job of course, but got to do the best I can. It's a documentary show which means they are going to interview people, all in one take only. So no retakes. I am going to tell him to also look for someone else, who will do it for free or the a cut of the pay, and I will consider options as well. But I think it will not do much good, and he is set on me. On the plus side though, since it's all one take, I won't have to do ADR which would be even more difficult. But there is also a con there as well of course.

I thought what I should do with the boom mic, is too use my Y splitter to create two tracks in case the sound screws up on one. The downside of this is that I was told before on here that doing that cuts down on the mic quality, and he wants really good quality to make a good impression with these people. But some have said on here that it doesn't cut down and it's the way to go. But that's just one dilemma.

Do you guys have any tips for me, on how to pull off this one shot deal, at all? Anything I may not know could help on doing something like this. Thanks.

 

[harmonica44]

As I understand currently I am just holding the mic in people's faces so far, but I am not mixing the sound, someone will be doing that as I hold it I believe. If I am to do this at all. I signed on as video editor though, and I told him that. I told him he will have to find someone to do audio. I also told him not to credit me for any of the sound, if for some reason I HAVE to do it and he begs me into it, once the shoot comes.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I signed on as video editor though, and I told him that. I told him he will have to find someone to do audio.

Obviously, the video editor also has to do the first stage of the sound editing process. You want to make sure that this really is the case and that he's not expecting your final edit to also be the end of the audio process.

I think it's a wise move to ask not to be credited for any of the sound. Whatever happens now, at least you'll get a learning experience out of it. If you would like more from it though, don't give up trying to get your friend to hire professionals. A learning experience is good, a long term paying gig is much better!

G

 

[Cracker Funk]

Obviously, the video editor also has to do the first stage of the sound editing process. You want to make sure that this really is the case and that he's not expecting your final edit to also be the end of the audio process.

I think it's a wise move to ask not to be credited for any of the sound. Whatever happens now, at least you'll get a learning experience out of it. If you would like more from it though, don't give up trying to get your friend to hire professionals. A learning experience is good, a long term paying gig is much better!

G

Agreed.

 

[harmonica44]

Yep. I will talk to him about it again, and see what he says about getting extra people if he has been able to find them. Do you think it will happen though, since he don't have pro equipment like it was mentioned before?

I was told over and over again on here, that it's not the equipment, it's how you use it, but now was told a few posts ago, that it won't succeed either way, cause I don't have pro equipment for which my friends can borrow. So if that's the case is it really how you use it, or the grade of equipment?

 

[Alcove Audio]

I was told over and over again on here, that it's not the equipment, it's how you use it, but now was told a few posts ago, that it won't succeed either way, cause I don't have pro equipment for which my friends can borrow. So if that's the case is it really how you use it, or the grade of equipment?

I know I'm harsh on you, but do you actually read everything that's posted in response to your questions?

You are not making a low/no/mini/micro budget short here. You are, potentially, making a broadcast quality documentary. The Broadcaster will want to sell commercial ad time worth thousands for each half of a minute to various advertisers. If the quality of the audio is not up to what the audience expects they will tune to another station. The advertisers will no longer advertise and the Broadcaster will not make money. It will never get that far. The advertiser will be shown the documentary to which you are attached by the Broadcaster. They will either like it or not, but if the audio is not what they are used to they won't buy time. Your project will be compared to "An Inconvenient Truth" or a History Channel doc and if it does not compare your project will not get sold.

Broadcast has very specific technical requirements. The tools required in audio post to meet those requirements are fairly specific since those same tools are used by the Broadcaster in Quality Control. Those tools are expensive.

When you are in production there are not any specific requirements - except that the equipment work perfectly throughout the entire day. The rest lies in the hands of the PSM and the rest of the sound team to capture excellent audio. It has become a "standard" to use lavs for sit-down interviews. When your job is on the line you follow the accepted standards and you also use the best tools available. Most production sound teams opt for Lectrosonics wireless systems ($1,200 to $3,000 per set) because they are extremely reliable, and B-6, COS-11 or Tram-50 lavs because they sound great and take the "abuse" of long-term real-world usage. Lavs have become "the sound" of documentary interviews because they reject the most ambient noise since they are so close to the subject.

There is a very hard and specific line that you cross from indie wannabe to professional. Broadcast is that line, as are big-budget "Hollywood" projects. There is millions of dollars of real money being invested by people who actually expect a return on their investment. Or, to put it another way, they don't give a rodents anus about art, they care about profits. It's BUSINESS, something that 99% of indie types never seem to grasp.

 

[harmonica44]

Oh okay. Well when I asked if the equipment mattered before, I did mean for distribution purposes, for making it up there one day. I was not talking about indie productions only. Now I feel the equipment I bought is not up to snuff and I could have bought better, had I known it actually mattered. But that's okay I guess, you thought I just meant indie productions. So when it comes to DVD distribution does the equipment matter? If so, I would have to sell my current equipment later, and get better stuff. But if that's the case, I wish I had just gotten the better stuff before, to save quite a bit of money later.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Oh okay. Well when I asked if the equipment mattered before, I did mean for distribution purposes, for making it up there one day. I was not talking about indie productions only. Now I feel the equipment I bought is not up to snuff and I could have bought better, had I known it actually mattered. But that's okay I guess, you thought I just meant indie productions. So when it comes to DVD distribution does the equipment matter? If so, I would have to sell my current equipment later, and get better stuff. But if that's the case, I wish I had just gotten the better stuff before, to save quite a bit of money later.

This forum is called IndieTalk. The discussions are mostly between low/no/mini/micro budget filmmakers and a few folks like myself who share whatever knowledge that we may have in our specific disciplines. The primary thrust of the discussions is how to make a product on extremely limited budgets. As I have mentioned over and over again, the skill with which you use your audio equipment is just as, if not more, important than the equipment that you use. If you use your limited equipment with a great deal of skill you will have great production sound tracks; if you use your limited audio post gear with a great deal of skill you will have a great sound track. The same applies to cinematography and all of the other crafts. But the goal of most here on IndieTalk is to become a director. As you move up the food chain you will more and more come to use and rely on people like myself who have the proper tools and the knowledge and expertise in their chosen disciplines so that you don't have to do it all yourself. You hire a DP, a PSM, an editor, a sound designer, etc. to handle the technical aspects for you so you can concentrate on your primary job - bringing your artistic vision to your audience. Your key department heads are in charge of making sure that your film will meet industry standards for distribution (theatres, DVD, BluRay, etc.)

The issue of distribution is up to the distributor, whether it is a big corporation or the filmmaker. If you wish to self distribute your indie film the audio must comply with the technical specifications of the distribution format (DVD or film festival requirements). This does not put any restrictions on all of the interim steps. You could use a $10 voice recorder to capture dialog if you wanted to and do all of your audio post in GarageBand. Your audience will decide if this was the proper choice.

In all of your posts you never once intimated that you wished to become a professional production sound mixer, a professional audio editor or a professional rerecording mixer. If that was your goal you would have received very different advice, the first of which is to participate in forums that pertain to those specific professions. The equipment used by professionals is an offshoot of their desire to deliver excellent product; they are in competition with other sound professionals, and they are all part of the process to make a profit for their ultimate client. So they use the best gear that money can buy to complement their talents and expertise so that they can stay in business and provide for their families.

When it comes to broadcast there are very explicit technical requirements that must be met, because the broadcasters themselves must also meet very explicit regulatory requirements. Shooting an indie film is like painting a picture, where all you need to do after completing the painting is to put it in a frame, the frame being the "technical requirement" for display as the DVD is the technical requirement for presenting your film to your audience. Broadcast is more akin to building a house where the architect and the builder must meet very specific governmental regulations; you have no choice, you must adhere to those regulations.

Your friend is apparently making the equivalent of a band demo; if songs are liked the the record company will cough up the money to record in a well equipped recording studio with an experienced engineer and a producer. So do the best you can, have some fun and make some contacts. Good luck!!!

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Well when I asked if the equipment mattered before, I did mean for distribution purposes, for making it up there one day. I was not talking about indie productions only. Now I feel the equipment I bought is not up to snuff and I could have bought better, had I known it actually mattered.

A really good prosumer production sound rig is going to cost you $3k-$4k, a really good professional production sound rig is going to cost you about 10 times more!! It costs 10 times more not because PSMs are rich people who like to spend money for the sake of it but because professional equipment performs better and more reliably. In some respects this "better performance" makes the job easier, in other respects, it makes it harder. More revealing detail in the sound equipment means that more mistakes and weaknesses are revealed! So, give a professional production sound rig to an inexperienced amateur and you probably won't get better sound quality than if the amateur were using prosumer equipment. The original advice you received was correct and as Alcove explained, by the time you are making enough money from filmmaking to invest $30k-$40k on a production sound rig you wouldn't want to, unless you specifically wanted to be a professional PSM.

So when it comes to DVD distribution does the equipment matter? If so, I would have to sell my current equipment later, and get better stuff. But if that's the case, I wish I had just gotten the better stuff before, to save quite a bit of money later.

Alcove also said in a prior post that professional filmmaking is a different ball game because you have to enter the world of business. The vast majority of indie filmmakers treat filmmaking as an artistic hobby rather than as a business, this is not a put down, in some senses it is an advantage because potentially an artistic hobby allows a wider range of artistic expression and experimentation than will usually be tolerated by the business world. For many indie filmmakers distribution is one of the last things they think about but for the professional filmmaker, distribution needs to be the first think you think about! The different distribution channels have different technical requirements, different regulatory/legal requirements and different consumer expectations and the costs of meeting all these different requirements and expectations varies hugely. This has to be very clearly understood, very carefully considered, planned and provided for and all this has to be done before you get anywhere near setting a camera up!

In the case of DVD, which is both a consumer format and a commercial format, there are few technical requirements and no regulatory/legal requirements but there are different consumer expectations. So, when you say "DVD Distribution" do you mean handing out DVD copies to your friends, family, cast & crew and hopefully selling a few copies cheaply on your website or are you talking about a fully commercial quality DVD release, to be distributed nationally and/or internationally at typical commercial DVD film prices? The former can be done by yourself with prosumer level production sound equipment and an NLE of your choice on a laptop, the latter will need professional audio standards, for which you'll need professional production sound and audio post equipment, and audio professionals to operate it.

TV broadcast is a particularly strange animal, not only because of very strict technical and regulatory/legal requirements but spend some time around TV execs and you'll understand why. At some level all TV execs hate TV programs! From a TV exec's viewpoint TV programs are: Expensive, a PITA to make and the vast majority are essentially viewed as little more than "loss leaders". They are a necessary evil because without TV programs the public will not watch your TV channel/s and you will not be able to sell the product your business is really all about, the advertising space/revenue. This is a simplistic explanation, as in practice TV networks have varied and complex product packages and mechanisms for making money but still, coming from the creative side of content creation and chatting for the first time at any length with a TV exec can be quite a shocking and sobering experience! TV execs are far more closely related to stock market traders than to creative filmmakers, therefore in general, the only time TV execs will show even the vaguest interest in your creative efforts or tolerance of it's weaknesses, is when they are selling it to advertisers or trying to syndicate it. In other words, this interest and tolerance is not extended to when they are buying, commissioning or producing a TV program!

Theatrical film has yet again different requirements and expectations and like all the other main distribution categories there are a considerable number of sub-categories, each with their own variations in technical requirements and audience expectations; from small, regional film festivals at one extreme, to blockbusters at the other.

With all this in mind, can you see the futility of the point you are trying to make? Sure, I could recommend the audio equipment you will need to fulfil all the requirements/expectations of the various distribution channels but this info would be completely useless and inappropriate on this forum. It would take you years to learn to use all of that equipment to achieve all the standards necessary, not to mention that you'd need a budget well in excess of $10m!

G

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks that helps. And thanks you people for all the good advice. And no Alcove, you are not being harsh, but actually quite helpful, this whole time. Thanks.

So this TV thing will probably fail since we are using my equipment then. But maybe my friends can still option it as a short to show off on their portfolio or something.

I am also helping my other friends make their first feature, and they are also using my sound equipment. They hope to achieve distribution they say. Now they have been learning a lot of stuff on their own and actually taking it quite seriously. I'm acting in it as well as lending them my equipment. I've listened to their audio so far, and it sounds pretty good, and they were definitely learning and not going in blind. But is this feature doomed in the water for distribution cause of my equipment, and it's already a moot effort, to get distribution, which is their goal?

 

[mus]

Curiosity.... what is your sound equipment?

 

[Alcove Audio]

He claims that he has a Fostex FR-2 and an NTG-3 plus all the correct accessories - boom-pole, shock-mount, wind protection, etc. I believe that he also is supposed to have an AT4053b. I don't know what he's using for audio post.

 

[Alcove Audio]

But is this feature doomed in the water for distribution cause of my equipment, and it's already a moot effort, to get distribution, which is their goal?

You still aren't listening. The "equipment gap" pertains to the difference between low/no/mini/micro folks who shoot two or three times a year and budgeted professionals who shoot 300 days a year.

Professional equipment is used heavily ten hours a day, six days a week - sometimes more - under all sorts of extreme environmental conditions. Almost half of the build of professional gear is to account this type of usage. The other is weight; a PSM and boom-op need the gear to be durable and light weight.

Have you ever handled Sound Devices gear? It's incredibly solid, incredibly light and sounds fantastic - as it should for the prices that they charge. But there are guys who are still using Sound Devices mixers that they bought 10 years ago. In the long run that $1,200 mixer only cost $120 a year.

The $1,400 a day sound crew could use your gear and get excellent results - they have the knowledge and superior skills honed by years of experience. But if you had access to their $50,000 worth of gear you would not get the same results that they do; you do not have the knowledge, the skills and years of experience.

Get it yet? Jeff Wexler could use an AT875 and an H4n and still get great sound. Why? He has been capturing production sound professionally since 1972!!! He has tens of thousands of hours of experience. How many hours/years have you been doing production sound and nothing but production sound? You have yet to acquire the skills needed to take advantage of the minimal equipment that you already have, much less the gear that someone like Jeff uses on a daily basis.

Is it starting to sink in?

 

[harmonica44]

Yep starting to sink in. I just hate to have a product turned down because of the gear alone.

And yes those pieces of gear are all the ones I have. For post I have Adobe Audition.

And for the my friends DVD movie project, I am talking commercial distribution, is what they are aiming for. I told them they need pro audio people to handle it, but they couldn't fine anyone. So hypothetical scenario for future projects: Let's say down the road, I make a feature, that I want to distribute commercially, and I have the audio and video people hired and with their pro equipment. Say the camera man or the sound recordist decides to drop out, halfway through shooting for whatever reason. Do I continue the project with my equipment while I still have the actors, and get it done while the actors are still available? Or do I just call the whole thing off and try all over again, and recast and rehire a new whole cast and crew later?

 

[Alcove Audio]

Go back and do some rereading.

The issue of distribution is up to the distributor, whether it is a big corporation or the filmmaker. If you wish to self distribute your indie film the audio must comply with the technical specifications of the distribution format (DVD or film festival requirements). This does not put any restrictions on all of the interim steps. You could use a $10 voice recorder to capture dialog if you wanted to and do all of your audio post in GarageBand.

Got it yet?

Say the camera man or the sound recordist decides to drop out, halfway through shooting for whatever reason. Do I continue the project with my equipment while I still have the actors, and get it done while the actors are still available? Or do I just call the whole thing off and try all over again, and recast and rehire a new whole cast and crew later?

If you have scheduled, budgeted and motivated properly this will never be an issue.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks, I think I got that part.

But it is an issue before when everything was done properly, and just happened again, on my friends project this week, with the camera operator, who was hired. It happened to me more than once, even though it was scheduled, budgeted and everything. It seems to be a common issue. People just leave for whatever reasons of their own, and no matter if the schedule and budget are set, it will not control their free will.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Are they actually being paid a full day rate? Signed contract, etc.? If not, of course they'll bail if a paying gig comes along.

 

[harmonica44]

Mine showed up to work for food, but her's are too. For my future projects I will pay full rate if I can and if that helps. What is full rate anyway?

So I was thinking of getting some more equipment as back up, in case I need it, but perhaps I should put more of that money to just hiring people who have it. But suppose either they drop out, even if being payed full rate. Should I still do it myself, and have back up equipment ready? And there are a lot of people who are into doing it and seem to have the skills from footage and recordings I have sampled, but some do not have the equipment. Should I still get it if that's the case, and they are still good and willing to work?

 

[AudioPostExpert]

But it is an issue before when everything was done properly, and just happened again, on my friends project this week, with the camera operator, who was hired. It happened to me more than once, even though it was scheduled, budgeted and everything. It seems to be a common issue. People just leave for whatever reasons of their own, and no matter if the schedule and budget are set, it will not control their free will.

I can only speak to my experience. In 20 years in this business I have never been late for a meeting, I have never missed a deadline and I have only once ever failed to complete a contract but that was because the producer wanted to change the conditions of the contract halfway through and the new conditions were impossible (for anyone) to meet. Think about that for a second, in 20 years that's pretty extreme, I've got plenty of stories of the lengths I went to in order to make meetings on time or hit a deadline. On one occasion it meant checking into hospital in the morning, having a general anaesthetic, major surgery on my knee, recovering from the anaesthetic and being back at work in the studio by 6:00pm that same day! Why would I go such extremes? Simple, for virtually every job I've done there were probably a thousand or more people who would have been extremely happy to have done the job and for a lot less than I was paid. Why did the producers pay me rather than pay someone else less? Because I am very good at what I do and I am absolutely reliable. IMHO, the only good reason for failing to meet a professional, contracted obligation is death and even then it has to be your own death! Maybe it's different where you are, I can only speak to my part of the world where it's so competitive that one lapse of reliability could easily be enough to end your career forever. What you are describing is not, in my experience true, you did not hire a professional because what you describe is not professional behaviour. Again, in 20 years there have been several occasions when I would have been fully justified (legally and morally) in bailing halfway through but only once, when there was absolutely no alternative, did I. If I sign a contract it gets completed, no excuses, period. Where I'm from, anything less and you're NOT a professional!

With regard to the equipment, again! There are too many variables to give absolute answers, I can only speak in probabilities. Prosumer equipment is "unlikely" to be good enough to produce a professional quality product but it could, say in the hands of a top professional, especially the the filming environment/situation is very conducive to good sound. It's also possible someone with limited experience as a PSM could get professional quality out of prosumer equipment but now the probability is "extremely unlikely". Again though, as I tried to explain before, the term "professional quality" has different definitions depending on the distribution channel. Quality for a regional TV program will be lower than quality for a Blockbuster theatrical feature but both would be "professional". Audio post is even more extreme, in that for many of the professional distribution channels prosumer (or even lower end pro) quality equipment may not be sufficient to attain professional results even in the hands of an expert.

EDIT: Just seen your last post, don't waste your money on more equipment. You will get a far better return for your money by putting it towards a real professional PSM. Sorry, I don't know the rates in your location. If they don't have the professional equipment, they are not a professional!

Now have you got it?

G

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. So far I have been building a team though. I got two people so far, who take it pretty seriously so far, and another two, who I am not so sure about, and will have to work with them more. But no warning signs yet either.

I could just tell the team, that we should all go our seperate ways and hire pros who have had more experience, for each others projects. I can also sell my current equipment if it means the money can be put to hiring for future projects instead. I just got a slider a few weeks ago, but now feel bad, and maybe should sell it, and just hire a pro DP with a slider, rather than relying on inexperienced people to operate the equipment for me. Should I give on on the team, for their own good, since they need pros, and should sell my equipment as well, since pros need to do it better, with their stuff? I can also sell my Adobe CS5.5., if it's not good enough for making commercial quality products, and just use that money to hire people who can as well.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I could just tell the team, that we should all go our seperate ways and hire pros who have had more experience, for each others projects.

Baring in mind what I've said previously... Not necessarily, it depends on the distribution channels of the projects in question, which dictates the final quality requirements, which in turn dictates whether you need to hire professionals, what level of skill/experience those professionals need to be and therefore the budgetary requirements. You need to judge this on a case by case basis. You have to weigh the factors yourself: The learning opportunity, the networking opportunity, maybe earning a little money and repaying favours could be the advantages of taking on a project, while the disadvantages are disappointing your friends and damaging a reputation which you are just starting to build by producing sub-standard work because you have bitten off far more than you can chew.

I can also sell my Adobe CS5.5., if it's not good enough for making commercial quality products, and just use that money to hire people who can as well.

I don't know enough about video editing or video editing software to be able to advise you on this. All I can tell you is that virtually every professional job I've done in the last decade has been edited on Avid, or less commonly FCP (not FCPX). Whether the lack of professional editors using Adobe CS commercially means that it's not suitable for creating commercial quality products I can't say. It could also be that Adobe CS is starting to gain more traction with the pros, in response to the FCPX debacle last year.

G