sound I was hired to do sound for a TV production, what do I do!

[harmonica44]

Well not exactly a TV production. Someone who works at the network, wants to make a pilot to a documentary show, which he can show the Board (as he put worded it), and hopes they will like it and want more.

But this is a TV network where I live and I was told the Board has RICH people on it. I told the guy who hired me, not get me but a sound person who knows a lot more about it, compared to my very beginner-ish level. He said that he wants me, cause I have good equipment compared to others, and that he knows me, and know I will commit professionally. I also owed him and I couldn't say no. And he talked me into saying yes, also cause it's a paying gig and I will get my foot in the door, or at least some kind of door. He will get his foot in too, if we help each other out.

But I feel that I am really not the right person for the job of course, but got to do the best I can. It's a documentary show which means they are going to interview people, all in one take only. So no retakes. I am going to tell him to also look for someone else, who will do it for free or the a cut of the pay, and I will consider options as well. But I think it will not do much good, and he is set on me. On the plus side though, since it's all one take, I won't have to do ADR which would be even more difficult. But there is also a con there as well of course.

I thought what I should do with the boom mic, is too use my Y splitter to create two tracks in case the sound screws up on one. The downside of this is that I was told before on here that doing that cuts down on the mic quality, and he wants really good quality to make a good impression with these people. But some have said on here that it doesn't cut down and it's the way to go. But that's just one dilemma.

Do you guys have any tips for me, on how to pull off this one shot deal, at all? Anything I may not know could help on doing something like this. Thanks.

 

[mus]

Just fucking do it! Have any of us considered the other dude's desires and aspirations? He knows H44 isn't an audio expert, yet he still wants him. Maybe he is working with what he's got! Gee, does that sound familiar to any indie filmmakers? Allow him to make his own decisions, right or wrong. H44, you've offered your advice, and he still wants you as his guy. You say you owe him, so make good on your debt! Do your absolute best, and learn from the experience. I'm sure the other guy will be doing the same.

That's exactly what I was thinking... and not to offend anyone that may get a little peeved at this... but it's just a documentary.

Believe it or not, People forgive shoddiness in documentaries.... in fact some expect it.

 

[mus]

And that's just under the presumption that he doesn't do a good job, which shouldn't be assumed.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

It's just when people bailed on me when I was suppose to start my first short film, everyone on here told me to do it anyway and to not flake out on my actors. Now you're telling me to flake out on everyone. It's just seems like a hypocritical move.

It's not hypocritical, it's two completely different things! When you shoot your first short film certain aspects of it will be poor or terrible, some aspects hopefully will be good or even professional but, no one would expect you to create a professional quality film at your first attempt! The goals of your first short are: To have fun, to make mistakes and learn from them and to complete the project. However, a professional TV project has very different requirements: Complete within deadline and budget, comply with all technical delivery specifications and provide the TV execs with a platform to attract advertisers. Making mistakes is unacceptable if they affect any of these requirements. Having fun is completely irrelevant, as is completing the project, unless it meets all of the requirements!

... and not to offend anyone that may get a little peeved at this... but it's just a documentary.

Believe it or not, People forgive shoddiness in documentaries.... in fact some expect it.

What you believe or what "people" expect or will forgive is irrelevant! Meeting delivery specifications is all that's relevant, otherwise "people" will never get the opportunity to forgive or expect because the program will never be aired.

I don't know about delivery specifications for the visuals but I have many years professional experience of audio delivery specifications, for a considerable number of TV networks. There are probably only 2 or 3 people on indietalk who would even be able to understand the audio delivery specifications for many TV networks, let alone be able to comply with them! Even very experienced audio post pros sometimes fall foul of the specs. BTW, there is no way around these specs, they are NOT optional or bendable! Some of the audio specs are a legal requirement and there is absolutely no way any TV network is going to jeopardise their broadcasting licence by accepting a program which "nearly meets" the specs. Just one editing click or just 1dB out of spec (which is inaudible), in just one tiny part of the program, could easily be enough for the whole program to be rejected, in which case, the producer looks incompetent. Even worse, if rectifying this QC failure causes the missing of the delivery deadline, the producer will have to find an new line of work (so too probably will the audio post guy/team)!

Obviously, high budget TV dramas sound better than most documentaries but that's because they spend very large amounts of time and money on the sound, to not only comply with the technical specs but to significantly exceed basic professional expectations.

You can of course choose to ignore or not believe these facts but then there's a pretty good chance that your first professional TV producing job (or audio job) will also be your last!

G

 

[Dreadylocks]

You "owed him" and you're going to repay him by screwing up his sound?! What do you owe him for, did he shoot your dog or sleep with your wife? If you owe him a favour rather than revenge, the best way of repaying him is by convincing him he needs a professional PSM!

Comment of the week, right there.

 

[mus]

What you believe or what "people" expect or will forgive is irrelevant! Meeting delivery specifications is all that's relevant, otherwise "people" will never get the opportunity to forgive or expect because the program will never be aired.

Again, you're speaking under the assumption that he will fail.

 

[Alcove Audio]

No, A.P.E is pointing out that there are very explicit delivery requirements for broadcast TV. There is no way that H44 can meet those requirements; he has neither the knowledge nor the equipment.

 

[NickClapper]

Let's face it, if this guy is happy to hire harmonica to do his sound then this isn't getting anywhere near TV.

When I was briefly at film school, we all had to work as boom operators on little shoots. The sound we recorded from them wasn't perfect, but it wasn't horrible and certainly no worse than in a lot of short films. Obviously, this whole question comes down to the standard that the production is going to be working at but, if the producer can't even afford a professional sound recordist, then it'll probably be fairly thrown together anyway.

I don't know what you should do. I wouldn't let you anywhere near the sound department if we were working on the same set but, who knows? Maybe you'll find your true calling...

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Again, you're speaking under the assumption that he will fail.

True. Alcove has already explained that when recording documentary interviews you cannot do retakes or ADR. This means the PSM has to get it right first time, without any mistakes, which is a challenge, even for an experienced professional PSM with all the right equipment. H44 hardly has any amateur experience, let alone professional training or experience, doesn't have any professional equipment and all this is before we even get to the audio post!

So yes, I am assuming that he will fail. There is of course a chance that he will succeed and do a professional quality job as PSM but it's a vanishingly small chance! When we get to the audio post, there's even less chance.

I'm not putting down H44, there's absolutely no reason why with dedication, time, study, practice, experience and the right equipment that he can't be a good professional PSM or audio post editor or mixer but as a beginner without any of these things it's simply not possible.

G

 

[Cracker Funk]

I don't think I would ever refer to a documentary as "just a documentary". That kinda sounds disrespectful to me, to be honest, though I assume that was not the intent.

I also don't think production value can be so easily dismissed. In fact, in my own personal experience, making a small handful of short docs, I've never wished I could go back and change anything more than poor audio.

Poor audio will ruin a documentary just as badly as it will a narrative film. Do audiences expect poor audio in a documentary? Sure, if it's being made by a student or first-time filmmaker. But the same can be said of a narrative film being made by a student or first-time filmmaker. The same basic rules apply to both.

That being said, I understand the points that Post and Alcove make, and they're perfectly valid. Without the ability to deliver what the station expects, this potential TV show being picked up is a longshot, to put it mildly.

Nevertheless, I still think it's a good idea to join the team. This is an opportunity for you, H44, no matter how humble it may be. Somebody wants to work with you! That is a good thing, no matter how you spin it. You say that you owe him, so I think it's a no-brainer to jump on the opportunity to gain more experience and help someone with their project.

Again, nobody on this forum has any right to try and make decisions for H44's friend. He knows he's not getting an audio expert. He probably does not have the financial means and/or professional network needed to obtain an audio expert. He's working with what he's got, and that's H44. Us zero-budget filmmakers have to make decisions like this ALL THE TIME. It practically defines us.

By telling H44 to not take part in this project, you're telling him to shoot down the hopes and dreams of zero-budget filmmaker. Will the end-result be professional quality? Of course not. But relationships will be developed, skills will be learned and practiced, and lessons will be learned. Trial and error is an important part of this craft, and I see this potential project as nothing but a positive.

Show me someone who's never made a mistake, and I'll show you someone who's never tried something new.
- Albert Einstein

 

[NickClapper]

Nevertheless, I still think it's a good idea to join the team. This is an opportunity for you, H44, no matter how humble it may be. Somebody wants to work with you! That is a good thing, no matter how you spin it. You say that you owe him, so I think it's a no-brainer to jump on the opportunity to gain more experience and help someone with their project.

Again, nobody on this forum has any right to try and make decisions for H44's friend. He knows he's not getting an audio expert. He probably does not have the financial means and/or professional network needed to obtain an audio expert. He's working with what he's got, and that's H44. Us zero-budget filmmakers have to make decisions like this ALL THE TIME. It practically defines us.

By telling H44 to not take part in this project, you're telling him to shoot down the hopes and dreams of zero-budget filmmaker. Will the end-result be professional quality? Of course not. But relationships will be developed, skills will be learned and practiced, and lessons will be learned. Trial and error is an important part of this craft, and I see this potential project as nothing but a positive.

Show me someone who's never made a mistake, and I'll show you someone who's never tried something new.
- Albert Einstein

+1

Very few indie filmmaking situations are perfect. Look at FrankLad's film Hickory Never Bleeds. The sound on that was done by friends and family with little or no experience as sound recordists and I think we can all agree that that film has been one of the greatest Indietalk success stories.

As CF says, once the director has asked you to join his team, it's not about how much experience you'll have or whether you can do a job (that should all be worked out before the offer is made). Now it's about whether or not you want to work on this project.

 

[harmonica44]

Well now that it has been mentioned that broadcast TV requires certain pro equipment, they are not going to meet the requirements with video either. They are just using a small sensor DSLR, and if my sound recorder is not good enough for pro equipment, neither would their equipment be either. I know it's been said it's not the equipment, but how you use it. But if it's true that they require certain equipment for Broadcasting expectations, then this movie is doomed even with a sound recordist.

 

[Mitra]

And he talked me into saying yes, also cause it's a paying gig and I will get my foot in the door, or at least some kind of door. He will get his foot in too, if we help each other out.

But I feel that I am really not the right person for the job of course, but got to do the best I can. ....

Do you guys have any tips for me, on how to pull off this one shot deal, at all? Anything I may not know could help on doing something like this. Thanks.

Dear harmonica44, believe me, you can do it! Sound engineering is not a rocket science, no matter what other may say, it is not difficult and you will definitely able to pull it off with flying colors. just remember the following tips.

1) Like Alcove Audio has previously advised, try to use lav., preferably wireless lavs. Stick the lavs to the body of the talents using a band aid type tape. The clips are not too reliable and make mic visible.

2) If using lavs, watch out for any rustling sound of cloths on lavs and reposition them if necessary.

3) Advise talents not to move their head down while speaking as this may change lavs pickup and sound quality due to proximity effect.

4) Please use a decent preamp and a recorder and turn on the limiter.

5) If you use boom, try boom from under also. There is again nothing rocket science about it. Just keep the mic pointed to the lips of the talent and keep the mic as close to the talent (not closer than three feet) without getting visible in the frame.

6) If you need any refresher on how to set the recording level, google the phrase "how to set recording level workshop" and watch the video.

7) Use a good monitor headphone and listen to the mix and adjust so that all talent voices are equally loud. Keep your eye on the level meter. Shoot for an average level of -22 db.

Make sure you use all new alkaline batteries in all devices as this is an one shot take, so take no chances.

9) Breath and relax and enjoy one of your major gig. Remember, most people never try because they are most afraid of failure. You will do it.

My best wishes

 

[harmonica44]

Well they want me cause of my equipment but I don't have lavs. I will try to get them to get lavs from somewhere or better yet get a sound person. Even if I ordered lavs they will not come in time, cause we are suppose to go with our first shoot in a couple of weeks. I do know someone with lavs, who I can recommend and ask but not sure if we will be available by the first shoot date. Thanks though. Not sure what to do. I am waiting for him to get back to me on my suggestions.

 

[Mitra]

Well they want me cause of my equipment but I don't have lavs. I will try to get them to get lavs from somewhere or better yet get a sound person. Even if I ordered lavs they will not come in time, cause we are suppose to go with our first shoot in a couple of weeks. I do know someone with lavs, who I can recommend and ask but not sure if we will be available by the first shoot date. Thanks though. Not sure what to do. I am waiting for him to get back to me on my suggestions.

Are you planning to use wireless lav or wired? If you use wired lavs, then please note that they use stereo shielded unbalanced wire, so running a long length may pick up sizable 60Hz hum. In that case you may need to check the ground connection etc. In nutshell more hassle. Try to get wireless lav. Which recorder you will be using for this gig?

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Again, nobody on this forum has any right to try and make decisions for H44's friend. He knows he's not getting an audio expert. He probably does not have the financial means and/or professional network needed to obtain an audio expert. He's working with what he's got, and that's H44. Us zero-budget filmmakers have to make decisions like this ALL THE TIME. It practically defines us.
...Trial and error is an important part of this craft...

Exactly! Using determination, ingenuity and trial and error to work with what you've got sometimes produces amazing results in many areas of indie filmmaking but not so in the area of audio post and particularly NOT for audio post destined for network TV!

My work always contains weaknesses, things which in retrospect I would like to change or improve and I'm still constantly learning from every project but, mistakes? No! There is no room for error when dealing with audio for TV networks. Indie filmmakers are are often not even aware of their audio mistakes or if they are, will tolerate them due to budget constraints but the TV networks will NOT. They demand professional quality audio, they will not tolerate anything other than absolute adherence to their delivery specifications, period! In some cases, TV networks don't even have any say in the matter, as quality control maybe handed over to third party QC companies, where some intern runs the audio through a battery of test software which just flashes red when one of the specs is not met and the program is rejected. The consequences of making a mistake are severe because by the time you discover you've made an error it could be too late or too expensive to do anything about it. Relying on the low/no budget method of trial and error simply will not be tolerated by the QC departments of TV networks. Even audio post specialists with more than a decade of professional experience, serious budgets and $100k+ facilities occasionally fail QC. What chance does a novice have with none of this knowledge, experience or equipment?

Typical network audio specs would likely start: Integrated longterm loundness = -24LKFS (+-2). Momentary levels not to exceed -2dBTP. How many of you even know what this means? Network TV specs would usually also require various combinations of dipped or undipped stems and have guidelines for phase coherency, anchoring elements and dialogue positioning. There maybe LRA, DRC, dialnorm or other metadata requirements. In total there's usually quite a few pages of audio specs. In addition, the ATSC A85 audio recommendations have been written into law for all TV broadcast in the USA and Canada and contains over 70 pages of technical information/specifications. How many indie filmmakers have the required equipment and the knowledge/experience to use that equipment to achieve a mix compliant with all these audio delivery specs?

No documentary gets aired on network TV without going through an experienced audio post pro! If you don't have the knowledge, experience or equipment to do the job to the standards demanded (or the money to hire someone who has), then stick to making youtube or film festival content until you do, because no matter how much ingenuity you've got or how much effort you put in, the only thing you will get out is a reputation for incompetency!!

G

 

[Mitra]

Typical network audio specs would likely start: Integrated longterm loundness = -24LKFS (+-2). Momentary levels not to exceed -2dBTP. How many of you even know what this means?

Never thought most of us here are that stupid

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Never thought most of us here are that stupid

Let's see if you can live up to your "university" advertising by explaining it then.

G

 

[Cracker Funk]

If you don't have the knowledge, experience or equipment to do the job to the standards demanded (or the money to hire someone who has), then stick to making youtube or film festival content until you do, because no matter how much ingenuity you've got or how much effort you put in, the only thing you will get out is a reputation for incompetency!!

Besides the fact that I think you're sounding a little condescending, I think you should focus on the question at hand, and to whom your advice is meant for.

H44 isn't trying to produce any content for TV. He is only pondering if he should help his friend whom has asked for his help. He has advised his friend that he has absolutely no expertise in the field his friend wants him to work in, but his friend still wants him. Your advice has absolutely nothing to do with H44's quandary.

Will they produce anything suitable for broadcast? Doubtful. But again, H44 (the person we're talking to) isn't the producer. You're trying to provide advice to the producer, but the producer isn't here. Besides, we don't have any details about exactly what they're doing. For all we know, their local TV station might be running a contest for people to make "pilots", and the winner gets to help develop a new show, in conjunction with the TV station. Maybe. On the opposite end of the spectrum, maybe the TV station has never solicited pilots and is not interested in seeing any, and maybe this entire project will go nowhere.

But it wouldn't be pointless. Not for H44. He will have gained experience, learned some new skills, helped a friend, and hopefully made some new friends. The question of whether or not H44 should help is an absolute no-brainer.

The producer (H44's friend, the person who isn't even reading your advice) might in fact get a reputation for incompetency, but maybe he doesn't care. He might have other motivations, or maybe he's just delusional. We don't know. All we know is that he wants H44's help, H44 says he owes him, and H44 has warned him that he isn't an audio guy. How is this even a discussion?

Post, you're an expert with audio. You know nothing about the daily struggle of a no-budget filmmaker. It is difficult to find people who want to work with you. For the no-budget filmmaker, networking takes a long time, and requires as much fortitude as it does patience. H44 has found somebody who wants to work with him. This is not an opportunity he should pass on.

 

[harmonica44]

Well I talked to the guy and he eased my mind quite a bit. He said that most of it will be holding the mic right one mouth it turns out, doing still interviews, which will be a lot easier for me and I've already done a lot of that myself. So the mic can be seen in the shot. He is going to find out if there are any scenes that will require not having the mic be seen. He is also looking for another guy to help in time, but no success yet. But at least he's looking.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Post, you're an expert with audio. You know nothing about the daily struggle of a no-budget filmmaker. It is difficult to find people who want to work with you. For the no-budget filmmaker, networking takes a long time, and requires as much fortitude as it does patience. H44 has found somebody who wants to work with him. This is not an opportunity he should pass on.

H44, OP:- "Someone who works at the network, wants to make a pilot to a documentary show, which he can show the Board (as he put worded it), and hopes they will like it and want more."

So the proposed documentary is not for a competition or looking to be remade. Unless I've misunderstood the OP, it's a pilot designed for broadcast, hopefully as part of a documentary series.

What you say is true Cracker, I am inexperienced in the no-budget film world but that's irrelevant because we are not talking about the no-budget film world, we are talking about the network TV world, a completely different animal! For example, I can understand that it must be difficult to find people to work with if you don't have a budget or a national/international reputation but network TV is exactly the opposite, the difficulty is who to choose out of the millions who would want to participate! Because there's an almost limitless choice of professional personnel (let alone wannabe amateurs) any black marks against your name could put you out of the game for years. As I understand it, H44 is effectively taking on 4 or 5 different professional roles: Boom Operator, Production Sound Mixer, Video Editor, Sound Editor and Sound Re-Recording Mixer. If I were in H44's shoes, I would only accept those roles which I was confident I could accomplish to professional standards.

Having access to the board of directors of a TV network is a fantastic asset and opportunity but as with all fantastic opportunities there are also risks. The person/people on the board with the responsibility for commissioning watch broadcast standard productions all day, this is their baseline, not no-budget indie film standards. I'm all for pushing yourself by accepting jobs which border on, or are even slightly above your current limits, this is one of the main ways I have developed in the past. But, from everything I've seen on this board from H44, he's not pushing his current limits by taking on all these roles but going way beyond them.

Of course, H44's friend will be blamed for hiring someone who was not competent to do the sound but this indictment obviously also reflects very badly on H44 himself! I can't currently see any chance that this pilot will be allowed to air, so IMHO the best outcome for H44 (if he participates) would be to hope that no one from the TV network notices his name in the credits.

G