How to Film/Edit a dance scene?

[Jeff77789]

Hello!

I know I'm new here but I was wondering how you guys film and edit your dance scenes. What I am making for my short film is a dance or ballroom scene where there are just background people dancing while the main actors are in focus talking.


The thing is, if I have music in the background for people to dance to, then wouldn't the microphone for the actors pick it up?
And if I don't have music playing, how can the people dance to it?

Thanks!

 

[Alcove Audio]

There are two ways to give actors "the beat."

You can use off-camera lights that pulse to the beat strategically placed where the dancers can see them.

Another way is to use sub-sonic sound. You roll off all the sound above 100Hz on the playback track and use a sub-woofer for the actual playback, and although you do not play it loud it does need to be "big." Then you roll off everything below 100Hz on the production sound tracks. This has to be planned out with extreme care during preproduction, and the "dancers" will need some practice prior to the shoot.

Of course you need to use a track with exactly the same BPMs when you lay the music back during audio post.

 

[WalterB]

Or go 'silent disco' with small wireless earplugs for the dancing people, but that's a rather complicated solution.

 

[directorik]

And if I don't have music playing, how can the people dance to it?

The challenges of being a dancing background extra.

I've never tried either of Alcove's methods. I have always simply
played the music, roll camera, give it 20/30 seconds, cut play back
and record dialogue. the background extras just need to keep the
beat in their head. It's not easy.

 

[jax_rox]

Depends on your shots. Shots with just dancers can have music playing whereas shots with talking can't. I can't imagine, however, that you'd have too many shots where the dialogue is happening with the same focus as the dancing. I imagine you'd find your dialogue scene, and the dancers in the background would be in soft enough focus that if they don't hit the beat 100% it won't matter.

 

[Cracker Funk]

I agree with everything that's been said here. Though the advice has varied, none of it is in disagreement with each other.

"Regular" people are horrible at keeping rhythm (they can't even clap-along, on time, with music at sporting events). Dancers, however, should be able to do a pretty good job of reading each others' actions, to keep relatively on time with the music they started dancing to that was muted just before you called "action".

Also, as jax pointed out, depending on the shot it might not really matter. I saw some great behind-the-scenes footage from "Dark Knight Rises". This footage was shot from a cell-phone, and obviously not authorized. Anyway, they were shooting the big fist-fight between Batman and Bane that takes place on the steps of some government building. Batman and Bane acted out a choreographed fight, while bad-guys and police officers fought around them. Batman and Bane's performances were intricately detailed, while the bad-guys and police officers remained in place, repeating the same repetitive motions, over and over again. It was hilarious how repetitive they were.

But watching the movie, you would never pick up on that. The camera was moving, the shots stayed tight on Batman and Bane, and were fairly shallow focus, so the background was a blur of movement. Might a similar scenario play out in some of your shots?

 

[jax_rox]

CF also makes a good point on the difference between 'regular people' and trained dancers when it comes to timing.

I recently AC'd for a dance film, and whilst most of the songs had playback, there were a couple scenes where the choreographer simply counted them in and they danced perfectly in time with each other (even without music). If you've been choreographed properly, you should be able to keep the beat in your head - especially if part of the music plays and then stops, if you know it well enough (as a dancer) you should be able to go through the steps in relative time.

And then there's my point about does it really matter for shots that need dialogue recorded if they;re perfectly in time.

 

[Jeff77789]

thanks for all the help guys! like i said, i haven't really had very much experience filming dance scenes.

Hopefully the people dancing in the background will be out of focus enough so that it's not noticable if they are dancing off to the beat.

for my short film people won't actually be talking while they're dancing so it should be fine



one last question, for the music being dubbed over, is there usually a filter or effect placed on the music so it gives it the effect that it's actually in a room? since my scene is in a ballroom i don't want it to be an extremely echo-y effect but maybe just a little? I'm not sure if that is necessary or not

 

[Alcove Audio]

for my short film people won't actually be talking while they're dancing so it should be fine

Then just play the track at a decent volume.

for the music being dubbed over, is there usually a filter or effect placed on the music so it gives it the effect that it's actually in a room? since my scene is in a ballroom i don't want it to be an extremely echo-y effect but maybe just a little? I'm not sure if that is necessary or not

Okay, despite what Final Cut calls audio plug-ins, they are called PROCESSORS. Plug-ins process the audio signal in one way or another - dynamic processors (compressors/limiters), effects processors (reverbs, delays and other time effects), equalization (EQ [frequency]) processors.

As to what you want the music to sound like it is up to your artistic interpretation.

Adding reverb tends to pull sounds back in the mix, so when there is dialog the "room" sound is used. As long as your dialog was properly recorded in the first place the dialog should be a little more forward.

It is a common device in romantic comedies to start the song with some "room" effects and then cross-fade into the "normal" mix. The concept is that the music starts in "reality" and morphs into the romantic mood of the characters (the big, lush mix) - which is really the manipulation of the audience into what the director and audio team wants the audience to experience/interpret.

You can hear the change start at about 00:58.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHnZ_vtyJ6E

Of course, in big-budget films the mixer(s) usually has access to stems of the music track, so has a lot more freedom when it comes to the interpretation of the music mix.

 

[Jeff77789]

Music copyright. I am still wondering about how to film this exactly because there is going to be a lot of dialogue and if I cut out all the music, there will be just 10 minutes of solid silence in real life while i record all the dialogue from all the actors, not including all the retakes

this might be a really dumb question but: The DJ during the event will play some songs and if these songs leak into the background audio track and it sounds really distorted, will i still have to pay copyright for those artists? they might be really famous songs and there is no way for a short film that anybody is going to want to pay the full usage rights for 5 or so famous songs.

 

[wheatgrinder]

This scene will take HOURS to shoot, not 10 mins!

you do NOT want ANY music to end up in your dialogue takes. Don't do it, don't contemplate it, don't even imagine it happening. DEMAND SILENCE!

You've been give plenty of doable ways of working this. Directork's idea is simplest.

Roll camera
Roll sound
Call DJ playback music
Call movement (dancers start dancing 30 or 40 seconds or longer if needed)
Call DJ stop music (dancers keep dancing to beat)
Call Action
capture an awesome performance by your actors.
Call Cut

Do it again.


If you have some dancers that just cant pull it off, have them positioned to see the DJ without making it obvious, and have the DJ keep listening on head phones and "waving his arms" to the beat..

 

[wheatgrinder]

Ill add that your scene is WAY too long if your going to have 5 or more songs play over the scene!

Also, finding local musicians to provide original music for the scene should not be all that hard. You don't even have to wait to do it..


The music you use for the production doesn't have to be the same music you use in the film. You might just use a drum track that has the beat you want to follow during the shot. When its time to edit it, you can generally stretch or shrink music in time by 10% without really any noticeable difference. (with the right software that is)

 

[Jeff77789]

Thanks for all the help guys!

 

[Alcove Audio]

When its time to edit it, you can generally stretch or shrink music in time by 10% without really any noticeable difference. (with the right software that is)

I've sped up and slowed songs down by 25% and more without artifacts (although the speed change makes the songs sound a little weird) using Serato Pitch 'N' Time.

I'll add that your scene is WAY too long if your going to have 5 or more songs play over the scene!

+1000000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You will want to use the same song for the entire scene unless you have very specific reasons for having two different songs, and it needs to be extremely pre-planned pre-produced if those songs are going to be different BPMs.

 

[ChimpPhobiaFilms]

Avoid showing feet.

 

[Jeff77789]

well they are not going to be dancing during the entire time during those songs. it's mainly just people talking with people dancing in the background

what i have is a handful of subscenes, so when i record, there will be ambient noise of people talking and whatnot. when it switches subscenes, the audio will jump a little bit as the ambient noise doesn't match up...should i be worried about this

 

[ChimpPhobiaFilms]

Yes. How about you record the scene with only the people talking, and the extras behind them NOT making noise. Then you record the other people dancing and talking. In post, you put in the clip of the people talking, and put in the audio of other people dancing and talking. Or record the scene with no audio, and do ADR in post.

 

[Alcove Audio]

what i have is a handful of subscenes, so when i record, there will be ambient noise of people talking and whatnot. when it switches subscenes, the audio will jump a little bit as the ambient noise doesn't match up...should i be worried about this

Your extras do not talk, they only pretend to talk, doing it silently. You add Walla (the sound effect of people talking) in audio post.

On set you should do everything you can to achieve total silence with the exception of the dialog; not completely possible unless you are on on a true sound stage (and even then there is some noise), but the less background noise you have the easier you make the job of the dialog editor(s).

From my blog:

The Crew

Every member of the crew should wear soft-soled shoes (sneakers) and wear quiet clothing – no vinyl jackets or pants and no corduroys. They should take change out of their pockets and turn off their cell phones and iPods.

The crew should remain absolutely still and quiet while rolling unless their job requires movement (i.e. the boom-op and camera operators). They should stand as whatever they sit on could create noise if they shift their position.

If someone has a cold keep cough drops and nasal spray available to cut down on coughs, sneezing and heavy breathing. Microphones can be very sensitive and pick up things you will not hear until you get to audio post.

The Cast

They should also wear soft-soled shoes (sneakers) and wear quiet clothing – no vinyl jackets or pants and no corduroys.

They should take change out of their pockets and turn off their cell phones and iPods.

If someone has a cold keep cough drops and nasal spray available to cut down on coughs, sneezing and heavy breathing.

Great extras are "mimes", they can appear to be having animated conversations and yet they are speaking in whispers or not at all. Remember that you can always add crowd Walla in audio postproduction, but it is very difficult to remove crowd noise from the production audio tracks.


Prepping Locations

Keep the cast and crew rest areas as far away from the actual shooting location as possible. If a person is not required on the set it would be better if they were not on the set. A buddy of mine maintains that the possibility of noise from the crew is the square of the number of crewmembers - five people on the set means 25 chances for an unwanted noise, ten people means 100 chances, 20 people means 400 chances.

When shooting indoors you will encounter rooms that are very ambient or have a "hollow" sound. They have hard floors, bare walls and not much in the way of "soft" furniture. Bathrooms or gymnasiums are excellent examples of excessively ambient spaces, but even a living room or bedroom can be very ambient; kitchens are notorious with all of the hard surfaces. An expertly used mic can mitigate but not eliminate this effect. Hanging up sound blankets (moving pads and comforters are an adequate substitute, as are foam mattresses) and laying down carpets (if they won't be seen in the shot) can help reduce the ambience of a room. Carpeting should also be used to reduce the sound of footsteps emanating from the crew who need to move during the shot. Sweep the floors. That little piece of grit can sound like an avalanche to the microphone.

Turn off appliances such as air conditioners, refrigerators and so forth. Physically unplug computers, televisions, stereos and similar devices; they are not actually off but are really in standby mode so still emanate some noise; the cumulative effect can be very loud when you get to audio postproduction. Unplug all landline telephones. If you are shooting in a bar, for example, and an appliance cannot be turned off, muffle the noise with a sound blanket.

If you are using a generator place it as far away from the set as possible. Use C-stands and surround it with as many sound blankets as you can. If possible put it around a corner and, if you are outdoors, surround it with cars and vans to help deflect the sound.

When shooting in alleyways and other excessively ambient outdoors spaces you can use the same ambience suppression techniques mentioned above. When shooting on concrete, tall/dry grass, gravel, etc. lay down carpeting for the crew.

 

[wheatgrinder]

Demand silence!

One thing that is fun for the extras is to capture a walla walla take. This is where you direct all the extras and background people to talk and make normal sounds for the scene. NO MUSIC though. Get a good 5 mins of the background noise and you can use that in editing as your own background sound. Having 5 mins worth lets you cut out any thing that you dont want to hear, like someone clearly speaking that might be distracting etc. and still have enough sound to cover a lot of screen time.