What looks more real? Filming a scene where someone gets hit by a club or bat, and doing it where the person doesn't really get hit? Or using a foam or rubber fake bat and actually hitting them if the actor is totally okay with it? I wanna film my first fight scene and could use some advice. Thanks.
How to do good choreography.
- Thread starter harmonica44
- Start date
-if you can get a "real looking" foam bat, possibly use that for long shots, so they swing without hurting, then do closeups of possibly a real bat (where it's more the "point of contact") and therefore much more controlled swing/visual of the contact. My .0002
But there are number of posters who have experience with this sort of thing, and you'll get some really good feedback
And... Unless you're dealing with trained stunt folks, never do anything like this that can actually hurt the actor for two reasons:
1) It's bad to hurt people (ethical/moral reason)
2) You don't want to have to replace the actor and refilm all the footage you've already got (Producer's reason)
1) It's bad to hurt people (ethical/moral reason)
2) You don't want to have to replace the actor and refilm all the footage you've already got (Producer's reason)
35% of a good "hit" is the acting. 23% is camera placement.
2% is the swing or punch. 40% is the audio
Even if the actor is okay getting hit by a real club or bat, the
actor swinging will be worried and the actor taking the hit will
be worried. So even with a good camera angle it will look fake.
and be very dangerous.
Even really good foam props can severely hurt an actor. They
can even be more dangerous because there is a false sense that
a foam prop can't hurt so unskilled people can swing much to
hard.
So choose the right camera angle, the actor with the prop swings
without making contact and the other actor acts.
Here's a cautionary tale:
There was a filmmaker making a short where someone got hit by a baseball bat. He wanted to do it with a real bat but use clever cuts so that the impact was fine. They rehearsed the scene at a venue where there was plenty of space to swing the bat and got everything down to a tee, thinking that they didn't need to practice again until they were on location. So when they got on location (a living room) they were doing the scene for the first time since rehearsal and in a totally different space. The actor, getting in to the moment, goes for the first take, swings the bat back as hard as he can... and smashes it straight into the camera. A lens worth hundreds of pounds was totally destroyed.
Just a warning that there are dangers to using the real instruments other than those to your actors' healths.
There was a filmmaker making a short where someone got hit by a baseball bat. He wanted to do it with a real bat but use clever cuts so that the impact was fine. They rehearsed the scene at a venue where there was plenty of space to swing the bat and got everything down to a tee, thinking that they didn't need to practice again until they were on location. So when they got on location (a living room) they were doing the scene for the first time since rehearsal and in a totally different space. The actor, getting in to the moment, goes for the first take, swings the bat back as hard as he can... and smashes it straight into the camera. A lens worth hundreds of pounds was totally destroyed.
Just a warning that there are dangers to using the real instruments other than those to your actors' healths.
It's always dangerous.
I was a camera operator for a bar fight. I was working
with experienced stunt players - several of whom I had
worked with before. We rehearsed the shot carefully
more than 15 times. It wasn't complicated, just close.
On the third take the stunt player I was behind took a
slight step to the right in prep for getting hit. He staggered
just a little and I countered just a little. When the punch
was thrown he missed the other actor (as he was supposed
to) but hit my camera. He broke two bones in his hand
and knocked out my front teeth when the camera smashed
me in the face.
I was a camera operator for a bar fight. I was working
with experienced stunt players - several of whom I had
worked with before. We rehearsed the shot carefully
more than 15 times. It wasn't complicated, just close.
On the third take the stunt player I was behind took a
slight step to the right in prep for getting hit. He staggered
just a little and I countered just a little. When the punch
was thrown he missed the other actor (as he was supposed
to) but hit my camera. He broke two bones in his hand
and knocked out my front teeth when the camera smashed
me in the face.
Ouch!
But... did you get the darn shot!!!
I'm insulted. Insulted, I tell ya!
I kept rolling. I even turned the camera around to get a shot of me
bleeding and spitting my teeth to the ground. The director yelled,
"cut" and the stunt guy with the broken hand turned to me and
said, "Are you good for another?"
No one will believe this and I don't blame you, but I stuffed a towel
in my mouth and we did another two takes before we were both
sent off the set. It's surprising how little getting the front teeth knocked
out hurts after the initial smack.
No I'm not going to hit someone with a real bat. I meant hit the person with a foam bat, or some soft material. Of course I've decided I won't since I don't wanna hurt anyone. How did the movie Oldboy get such good choreography? The whole fight was shot from one angle, from the side. And it actually looked just like the actors were really making hard contact with the punches. How did they do that!
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They where stuntmen, who know what they do. And I think when so much people are involved, you can hide some hits, so you actually do not see they are missing the other one. One knife was not a "complete" prop, the blade was digital. Remember that even trained stunt people get hurt sometimes, no matter how good they have practiced.
And in the end, the Asians are the masters of fight scenes ...and a bit crazy
The first lesson in my ages 12-17 filmmaking camp every summer is this:
We do a closeup of a kid getting his head kicked in. To do this, we start with a kid on the ground, and another kid puts his foot next to the first kid's head. We start rolling, and the 2nd kid pulls his foot away.
Load footage into the NLE, reverse it, and the kids are kind of impressed. Then for the 2nd day, I ask one of them to bring in a cabbage, one to bring in a soccer ball, and another to bring in a watermelon. We record audio of the cabbage getting sliced, the soccer ball bouncing on the ground and the watermelon getting smashed with a bat.
We load these sounds into the NLE and lay each one over the moment when the reversed foot "kicks" the head.
You should see the kids jump back when we watch it!
40% (or more) of a good hit is the audio.
We do a closeup of a kid getting his head kicked in. To do this, we start with a kid on the ground, and another kid puts his foot next to the first kid's head. We start rolling, and the 2nd kid pulls his foot away.
Load footage into the NLE, reverse it, and the kids are kind of impressed. Then for the 2nd day, I ask one of them to bring in a cabbage, one to bring in a soccer ball, and another to bring in a watermelon. We record audio of the cabbage getting sliced, the soccer ball bouncing on the ground and the watermelon getting smashed with a bat.
We load these sounds into the NLE and lay each one over the moment when the reversed foot "kicks" the head.
You should see the kids jump back when we watch it!
40% (or more) of a good hit is the audio.
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That's the magic of movies at work.
They did that by very carefully choreographing the sequence and
choosing the right camera angle. The people involved were skilled
professionals so they make it look brutal without actually making
hard contact. This takes time to master.
But we all start somewhere. The more cautious you are as the
fight choreographer and the more you understand the limits of
the actors, the safer your shoot will be.
No one sued over that? I'm serious. Do you remember the actor who sued Jean Claude Van Damn for hitting him for real during the filming of a movie. The actor claimed if JCVD was a "real" martial artist, he should have had better control not hit him for real.
I'm gathering some great stunt people for my new production. But, no actor want's to hit another actor for real. They were relieved to know we're using stunt dummies to take all the real punishment. They don't mind socking a dummy for real.
I'm gathering some great stunt people for my new production. But, no actor want's to hit another actor for real. They were relieved to know we're using stunt dummies to take all the real punishment. They don't mind socking a dummy for real.
Okay thanks for info, that helps. A lot of websites are also saying it's good to move the camera while shooting a fight scene. But doesn't that make it look shaky? I want to film probably the least shakiest fight scene I can so is a tripod still a no-no?
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