How much free rein should I give a screenwriting consultant?

[harmonica44]

I want to hire a screenwriting consultant and looked around. There is one who read my script who has more experience than the others, so far, but she says she cannot improve things here or there, and that the script is so flawed that the whole story and perhaps even a good amount of the premise will have to be rewritten from scratch.

If this is the best way to go, it's the best, however, if she chooses to add in more characters or more locations, it can become difficult since I wrote a script to fit my budget as best I could, and I don't know if I should allow her to rewrite the whole story. If I tell her no, I cannot make certain changes that she wants because of budget, she may find it difficult to work with me perhaps.

What do you think I should do? Is this her job, and I should continue to let her do it, or should I not give total free rein, and their should be cut offs? Or is that bad and free rein from a pro, is the only way to have a likely great script?

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. Before I decide to post it on here, I want to write another draft to make some improvements. I guess it's okay if not all the plot points work. Perhaps I am trying to make everything too perfect, and dig myself into holes. It's just if i am not satisfied with one plot point, I will want to keep working on it, till I feel it's the best it can be.

I was told by the other filmmakers that even though the plot can get a bit ridiculous, you either buy it or you don't, and it's just a matter of selling it better.

Sometimes in order for the plot to go certain ways, I feel characters have to make illogical decisions or I have to break some sort of logic in the story, just so it will build towards a certain ending.

Another problem I have is writing action scenes. Since I am on a microbudget, it's really hard to keep a foot chase, or a shoot out going for ten minutes straight, without it becoming monotonous. Because I don't want to have many actors or big expensive locations, I have to actors chase each other, and shoot it out in smaller locations, and it's hard to keep it interesting if no one is allowed to get hit. I took the suggestion that I should write it like The Silence of the Lambs, and just have the characters play hide and seek, but even that can become uninteresting if I am trying to keep it going for 10 minutes. I also took the suggestion to use a bigger location so people are harder to shoot, but that gets repetitive too after a while.

I also am having trouble keeping a twist unpredictable and it seems no matter which way I write it, the reader can always see it coming. Even if I create red herrings, the red herrings become unnatural, to the reader, so I have to get better, at writing red herrings properly.

Are their any low budget movies that have a shoot outs or chases between few characters where no one can be killed or maimed cause they have be in the rest of the story, and no property destruction is allowed during, because of low budget?

If there are movies I can watch or scripts I can read, that are within that budget, that may give me ideas on how to write better.

 

[Alcove Audio]

H44 - The creative process is evolutionary, you do not have a "Finished Product" right out of the box. You disassemble it, rearrange it, fold, spindle, and mutilate it, and then put it back together again over and over until you get it right. As you gain experience and knowledge you will have better instincts for what works and what doesn't, so your work will perhaps require fewer revisions.

You will not improve until you get objective outside criticism of your work; and lots of it. And yes, it can be painful and personally deflating, but if you learn the lessons of your "failures" you will be better at your craft. You know the old cliché; Edison failed almost 2,000 times developing the incandescent light bulb. 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration, yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

[harmonica44]

You're right. However I find screenwriting to become more difficult because the wrote scripts I write, the higher I set the bar for the next plot.

But yes, I will write another draft, and then post it on some sites for review.

 

[sfoster]

with the largest budget in the world, it's still hard to keep a foot chase or shootout going for ten minutes. that's a really long time.

 

[harmonica44]

Well the foot chase in Casino Royale was almost 10 minutes as well as the car chase in Bullitt. It's not like I have a lot of sequences in the script like this, just two long ones, at the beginning and end, and two short ones in between. I will keep thinking and try to write within my restrictions.

 

[sfoster]

Well the foot chase in Casino Royale was almost 10 minutes as well as the car chase in Bullitt. It's not like I have a lot of sequences in the script like this, just two long ones, at the beginning and end, and two short ones in between.

The foot chase in casino royal is 6:22 The car chase in bullit is 4:30
I have nearly every chase isolated and sorted, don't try to BS me

Yeah it's not impossible, these things do happen.

The hunted and french connection both have long foot "chases" nearly 10 minutes but it's at a very slow pace with a lot of walking.

The original gone in 60 seconds is over a 20 minute car chase, fast five is 10 with the vault chained to the back of the car.

At a low budget.. trying to do something for 10 minutes like that seems overly ambitious but if you can pull it off then more power to you. I'm going to aim for my foot chase scene to be around 3-4 minutes

 

[harmonica44]

Oh sorry, I got the Bullitt chase mixed up with the Seven Ups chase. I think that one was 8 minutes around. I can do 4 minutes, just so long as the audience or reader in this case, will feel that it's climatic enough, and not think that it's too short.

As far as the red herring goes to hide a twist. I asked a fellow filmmaker who helped me write parts of it, even though he has not written anything himself, and just helped shoot other scripts. He says to forget the twists if it's not working and just have the audience know what's going on ahead of time, and it will still be good. If you take a twist out of a thriller, or take out an element of surprise, does that bring it down a lot perhaps?

 

[sfoster]

Oh sorry, I got the Bullitt chase mixed up with the Seven Ups chase. I think that one was 8 minutes around. I can do 4 minutes, just so long as the audience or reader in this case, will feel that it's climatic enough, and not think that it's too short.

As far as the red herring goes to hide a twist. I asked a fellow filmmaker who helped me write parts of it, even though he has not written anything himself, and just helped shoot other scripts. He says to forget the twists if it's not working and just have the audience know what's going on ahead of time, and it will still be good. If you take a twist out of a thriller, or take out an element of surprise, does that bring it down a lot perhaps?

Yeah seven ups is 9:30 so very close to 10 minutes.
The best foot chase I've ever seen (that wasn't a parkour chase) is from death sentence and it's incredibly riveting and under 4 minutes. (It's longer if you count the hide-n-seek in the parking garage at the end, but I don't )

I assume you don't have a park our expert in your cast so you'll have to rely more on these types of techniques seen in death sentence.

 

[harmonica44]

No I don't have a park our expert, but I don't mind not using those techniques. If I trim the actions scenes down though, the script may end up under 90 pages, and usually it seems that people want at least 90 pages in a feature script, as that is often the industry standard. That is another reason why I am tending to have two long scenes like that.

 

[Sweetie]

60 seconds is over a 20 minute car chase

Well over. It includes a 40 minute car chase scene. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gone_in_60_Seconds_%281974_film%29

You can do it, if you do it right.

I saw the behind the scenes video for Swordfish. It may be worth watching for an idea of how important it is to do something new. New action scenes etc.

 

[sfoster]

Well over. It includes a 40 minute car chase scene. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gone_in_60_Seconds_%281974_film%29

You can do it, if you do it right.

I saw the behind the scenes video for Swordfish. It may be worth watching for an idea of how important it is to do something new. New action scenes etc.

I disagree with the 40 minutes, but that is just my own opinion.
My clip comes in at 24 minutes.

It's 40 minutes if you leave in all the crap that has nothing to do with a car chase. People being interviewed. Etc. Reporter talking to a camera. Scenes that do not show a car nor anyone even involved in the chase.

A bunch of intercutting.

Maybe if I start my film with a chase and then have a movie, and finish the chase after the credits i can get longest chase in history then too

 

[WalterB]

You're right. However I find screenwriting to become more difficult because the wrote scripts I write, the higher I set the bar for the next plot.

But yes, I will write another draft, and then post it on some sites for review.

I guess you mean 'the more script I write'.
It good to set the bar higher, but what do you mean by that?
Making it more complex? *
Making it longer?
Better dialogues?
Better charater development?
More exciting?
Less boring?
More charater driven? Or more plot driven?

So what do you mean with setting the bar higher?

*A side note:
more complex does not always make things better.
Some times simpleris much more elegant.

PS.

I'm sorry I have to tell you this, but this:

....
she says she cannot improve things here or there, and that the script is so flawed that the whole story and perhaps even a good amount of the premise will have to be rewritten from scratch.
..............

sounds to me like a professonal way to tell you your script is "far from perfect" (to use another eufemism)

In other words: she probably means it's unlogical crap.
(On the other hand, I don't know what standard she compares it with...)

Better rewrite the draft and put it on IT.
You'll get a lot more bang for buck, I guess, if you get feedback from multiple ITers, so you can find out what doesn't work and rework the script to a better version and then maybe hire her.

 

[maz]

h44, it sounds increasingly like you're more determined to fill out a ticklist of bits from a load of movies that you've seen rather than to write the kind of movie you can actually make. Most big movies have huge budgets and at times there seems to be a battle amongst producers to see who can be the most bombastic and overblown. If you're on a microbudget, write to a microbudget. I read an article the other day about the difference between writing as a writer (where your imagination is the limit) and writing as a producer (where you know you'll be the guy who has to sort out all these complex scenes).

Look at your budget and the skills and resources available to you, and then write the best thing you can within those restrictions. It doesn't have a 6-minute car chase? Find another way. It doesn't have a 12-minute movie-style shootout where the gun-toting baddies who were taking headshots at will earlier on are suddenly unable to hit a barn door just so that the shootout fills up the time required? Find another way.

Don't get hung up on famous movies. They are famous because they did something clever or stylish, not because they had interminable chase scenes or shootouts. Find another way. Do something clever.

And post your script!

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. I will rewrite it to fit a budget. I cannot find lot of really low budget movies to get inspirations from. However, I can write it so that the shoot out will work on my budget. I know I shouldn't write a shootout on my budget. I tried to write it so the characters did not have to bring guns, but usually when cops go to arrest as dangerous gang, they will bring guns, and the gang knows this, so they will bring guns. As far as having a chase goes, if a gang is going to commit a crime, they will brin a getaway vehicle for when the cops come, rather than taking the bus, so therefore, cars are logically expected. But I wrote so that they have to abandon their cars right away, and the rest can be done on foot. It's hard to write on my budget, while still be logical in the plotting.

To answer the question when I say I set the bar higher and higher, the next script. What I mean is in all the above examples WalterB gave. Mainly I am trying to create a deeper story than before, but also with more twists and turns. More exciting with better dialogue as well.

 

[Sweetie]

I disagree with the 40 minutes, but that is just my own opinion.
My clip comes in at 24 minutes.

It's 40 minutes if you leave in all the crap that has nothing to do with a car chase. People being interviewed. Etc. Reporter talking to a camera. Scenes that do not show a car nor anyone even involved in the chase.

A bunch of intercutting.

Valid point.

Maybe if I start my film with a chase and then have a movie, and finish the chase after the credits i can get longest chase in history then too

Try it, see how people feel about it

But you need to pay homage to Gone in 60 seconds with the mandatory granny smacking the car with the umbrella.

 

[Alcove Audio]

I cannot find lot of really low budget movies to get inspirations from.

What the hell are you talking about? Don't look to movies for your inspiration, look inside yourself. If you need outside stimulation, how about: The news, history, anthropology, have torrid love affair... Get out there in the world and do something, even if it's just sitting on a park bench and people watching. Maybe volunteer someplace.

Thinking "small" may not be what you want to do, but it is what you should be doing. Working within limitations forces you to problem solve, which is a big part of the creative process anyway. And there is even the vague chance you will get to shoot one of those scripts, so you wont' have to rewrite down, only up in budget.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Here ya go....... Number 8 is especially germane..... As are 12, 14, 17 and 18.....


24 pieces of life advice from Werner Herzog 


1. Always take the initiative.
2. There is nothing wrong with spending a night in jail if it means getting the shot you need.
3. Send out all your dogs and one might return with prey.
4. Never wallow in your troubles; despair must be kept private and brief.
5. Learn to live with your mistakes.
6. Expand your knowledge and understanding of music and literature, old and modern.
7. That roll of unexposed celluloid you have in your hand might be the last in existence, so do something impressive with it.
8. There is never an excuse not to finish a film.
9. Carry bolt cutters everywhere.
10. Thwart institutional cowardice.
11. Ask for forgiveness, not permission.
12. Take your fate into your own hands.
13. Learn to read the inner essence of a landscape.
14. Ignite the fire within and explore unknown territory.
15. Walk straight ahead, never detour.
16. Manoeuvre and mislead, but always deliver.
17. Don't be fearful of rejection.
18. Develop your own voice.
19. Day one is the point of no return.
20. A badge of honor is to fail a film theory class.
21. Chance is the lifeblood of cinema.
22. Guerrilla tactics are best.
23. Take revenge if need be.
24. Get used to the bear behind you.








http://kottke.org/15/01/24-pieces-of-life-advice-from-werner-herzog

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. I have read over that list three times now, and will keep reminding myself. I am just scared of someone stealing the script or something, or even downloading it, that's all.

However, if that is not a risk, I will post it after I am done in the next draft I think. Mainly the issue in the writing I think with me, is that the reader cannot get a logical sense of the characters decision making. Characters have to make decisions here or there, and they are not the same decisions or thoughts that the readers have when they put themselves inside the characters heads. Especially if I want to keep the character a mystery, and even misdirect the reader intentionally, so they can be surprised later.

However, my friends and filmmaking collaborators say that the characters decisions and conclusions they come to, are illogical, or not what they would think of. But just because it's not what the reader would think of, does not mean that that particular character would think of that. I have to make it convincing to the reader that the character is suppose to not conclude what they would conclude and make the misdirection intentional and natural, which I am having trouble doing. In order to finish the last draft, or there any books or sites, or tutorials, that talk about ways to create convincing misdirection, specfically? A lot of books and sites talk about writing, but I could use one that gets into the real deep specifics of creating misdirection.

In other threads I also talked about having trouble progressing with the script because of legal technicalities in my story, in which it will come off as amateur if I make laws up so the story will work, so the legal road blocks also put me at a standstill. But I will continue with the new draft as quick as I can.

 

[Sweetie]

I am just scared of someone stealing the script

Trust me, no one is going to steal YOUR script.

Mainly the issue in the writing I think with me, is that the reader cannot get a logical sense of the characters decision making.

You'll need to learn how to write better. If the reader fails to understand, that's usually a failure of the writer.

the characters decisions and conclusions they come to, are illogical

That's a problem. This can cause the audience to lose their suspension of disbelief. Once you've lost that, you're screwed.

I make laws up

I suppose you can do that. Push too far outside the bounds of what's acceptable and you may fall into trouble area.

I could use one [books/training/course] that gets into the real deep specifics

What's the point in suggesting any? You don't pay any attention anyway. Before I dig into my list of helpful resources, you need to overcome my current image of you and prove to me that you're not a waste of time.

 

[Filman]

Harmonica, if the most experienced consultant you've found wants to change your premise, shouldn't you ask yourself if the one you have is optimal, before you do this newest rewrite, so you don't have to do it all over again with a better premise?