How much contrast is too much?

[harmonica44]

I am practicing with color grading to get a certain look. I like the ideas of high contrasts used in some movies like Saving Private Ryan. I tried pushing the contrast a little in different shots. I can shoot on no contrast and do it in post as well, but I did it in camera this time to an idea of where to be, since I am still learning 'curves' in post and what not.

How much contrast gets to the point where it's too much in these shots do you think? Pardon the bad lighting, as I did this under natural light:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT_cqfONRac&feature=youtu.be

It's also hard to judge cause different contrast looks much different under different lighting, but you want to pick one setting for the whole movie, so the picture matches from shot to shot of course. Thanks!

 

[Metrostar]

"This video is private. "

I am just getting into this with my feature. It's the last thing to do and I've been putting it off. I have a character wearing all black in a scene and what stopped me upping the contrast was the point in which I started losing detail on the blacks.

 

[harmonica44]

Oh sorry. How is it now?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT_cqfONRac

 

[Metrostar]

Oh sorry. How is it now?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT_cqfONRac

It works now. I think you could probably go further with the contrast.

Also,

but you want to pick one setting for the whole movie.

I might not be understanding this right, but I am going through mine scene by scene to get the right look. If I applied one blanket setting to my whole timeline, some dark scenes would just be too dark. Forgive me if I misunderstood you.

And I am not an expert. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[ChimpPhobiaFilms]

Saving Private Ryan was a war film, using contrast and desaturation to emulate the intensity of war and the way that WW2 footage/photographs looked, and to show the brutality and harshness of the environment (to say the least). But I don't think that we can know how much contrast is too much unless we actually heard what the story was about and the scene specifically, in context. But generally, when the image looks unappealing and fake-ish, that's when there's too much contrast. But it really depends on why you are pushing contrast to the place where you want it to be, and what effect that will actually achieve.

 

[harmonica44]

I just want to achieve a dark suspense look for a thriller short project. Kind of like how a lot of film noir movies have the black areas crushed down. Not that I am shooting B & W, but I want to be able to push it as far as it can go and look good with color.

When I say I want to pick a contrast level setting for the whole movie, what I mean is, is that I want every scene to match so the movie has a consistent look and does not jar the movie viewer, if the look changes to much from scene to scene. For example, the feature I helped out on last year, got complaints, that each scene looked too different. The contrast was one of the problems and I could totally tell that it was high contrast in daytime scenes, compared to low contrast at night. I don't want to have a jarring mismatch to the viewer in the look changing. So what I figure the best logical thing to do is, is to take the darkest scene, apply as much contrast as you can to give the look you want, without it looking like too much, and then use that for the whole movie, so the look matches throughout. Unless this is a bad idea?

In the video my contrast in the camera ranges from -2 to +2, in both examples. When I start going past -1, it starts to look possibly like too much, but it's hard to determine between -1 and +2, as to what is too much.

 

[ChimpPhobiaFilms]

I just want to achieve a dark suspense look for a thriller short project. Kind of like how a lot of film noir movies have the black areas crushed down. Not that I am shooting B & W, but I want to be able to push it as far as it can go and look good with color.

When I say I want to pick a contrast level setting for the whole movie, what I mean is, is that I want every scene to match so the movie has a consistent look and does not jar the movie viewer, if the look changes to much from scene to scene. For example, the feature I helped out on last year, got complaints, that each scene looked too different. The contrast was one of the problems and I could totally tell that it was high contrast in daytime scenes, compared to low contrast at night. I don't want to have a jarring mismatch to the viewer in the look changing. So what I figure the best logical thing to do is, is to take the darkest scene, apply as much contrast as you can to give the look you want, without it looking like too much, and then use that for the whole movie, so the look matches throughout. Unless this is a bad idea?

In the video my contrast in the camera ranges from -2 to +2, in both examples. When I start going past -1, it starts to look possibly like too much, but it's hard to determine between -1 and +2, as to what is too much.

Most noir films have heavy contrast because of how they were lit. If you want film noir contrast, consider getting some lighting gear, and using certain lighting tools such as cookies and filters to achieve the look you are trying to get. As far is it looking good, there is no 'this much' or 'that much', because none of us can tell you the exact settings unless in the location and with your gear.

I don't recommend each scene having the exact same amount of contrast, color, etc. etc. etc. Locations should be distinguishable and not cause confusion, which again can depend on the locations you are thinking about using. But if you are worrying about consistency and there being too much or too little, I recommend you shoot as flat as possible, then adding contrast later so that you have more control over the final look and do not regret a shot or series of shots having too much contrast.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. But even if I shoot flat and add it in post, the same principle still applies. You have to add the same amount to each scene, or else it will look to different. So it seems like it's the same principal for consistency.

But even in film noir, there are still wide shots, outdoors in the sun, that still have a high contrast. You cannot control the lighting but they still add a lot of contrast to the film in post. Saving Private Ryan is a good example. Even the scenes that are shot in the open field, they do not light the sun so it's shadowy, cause they can't. But there still a lot of contrast in the grading itself. That's what I want for the scenes outdoors, that cannot be lit with shadow patterns. I want high contrast grading like SPR.

 

[cheeseandachallenge]

Change it until you think it looks good, then get someone elses opinion?

But you want to be doing a lot of this with your lighting. For outdoor shots that means shooting at hours that the sun will be at the right angle to cast the kinds of shadows you want.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. That makes it tougher, especially if you want to shoot in wide shots, downtown, where a lot of buildings block the sun. I keep trying to post a still photo example, but I cannot get it to upload to this site for some reason... I will keep trying. But even if I can make the sun 'shadowy', how do I make the shadows appear more black, without choosing a consistent high contrast in grading? It seems that even with shadows, they only go so black, at regular middle contrast and it needs more, even if you try to make them dark on set.

 

[WalterB]

It's too much when only pure black and white remain
(Or 4 colors)
Unless that's the look you are going for, than it's not too much...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hfSQbRGGiw

With the same contrast settings in a camera you can still have different contrasts: depending on direction, softness and brightness of light, the use of color and exposure.

If your shadows are too bright, your light is too dark, or spilling into the shadows.
That's where grading can help.

BTW,
about your test shots: the second half shows more affinity than contrast.

Saving Private Ryan uses a kind of bleach bypass to get that look.

 

[ChimpPhobiaFilms]

Okay thanks. But even if I shoot flat and add it in post, the same principle still applies. You have to add the same amount to each scene, or else it will look to different. So it seems like it's the same principal for consistency.

I recommended that you shoot flat so that YOU HAVE MORE CONTROL. If a certain shot has too much contrast, are you going to want to change all of the shots to fit that shot? Shoot as flat as possible and play with it in post, especially since you're unsure as to how much contrast is too much. Look, each shot does not have to have the exact amount of contrast and brightness, etc. etc. etc. Edit your film and correct/grade to make your footage with both the look you want, as well as the consistency you want. There's no mathematical equation or straight answer, just grade until you're happy with it. I can't tell you "this much" or "that much". You don't want every shot to look exactly the same, that gets boring. You don't want greatly differing shots (unless you're using inconsistency as an effect). Find a balance... just try to match them. And if you're still struggling with it... unsure of how and why, then I recommend you post it here and get some feedback and other opinions of whether or not it matches... and if people say that it doesn't, go back to experimenting and smoothing things out, or get a better colorist than you to work on it. Oh, and if you're worrying about consistency, post a short film. Not like the one you posted in this thread, a short scene so we can see what's inconsistent and consistent to you, what matched and unmatched settings are, and what matching all of the settings in every single shot achieves.

But even in film noir, there are still wide shots, outdoors in the sun, that still have a high contrast. You cannot control the lighting but they still add a lot of contrast to the film in post.

Lighting can be controlled outside as well, with reflectors and powerful lights. And yes, they can add contrast in post. That's why I'm recommending you try to achieve your desired amount of contrast in post.

Saving Private Ryan is a good example. Even the scenes that are shot in the open field, they do not light the sun so it's shadowy, cause they can't. But there still a lot of contrast in the grading itself. That's what I want for the scenes outdoors, that cannot be lit with shadow patterns. I want high contrast grading like SPR.

Ok.... then throw on a bleach bypass filter and adjust to your liking.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. You say to shoot flat in case one shot has too much contrast compared to the others. But why would that happen, as long as you don't change the camera settings? It seems that if you leave the camera set to the same settings, for the shoot of a whole movie, then the contrast should stay the same throughout from shot to shot, no? By leaving the settings to the same, I mean sharpness setting, contrast setting, saturation, etc. It seems that there shouldn't be a problem in mismatching as long as the camera is set to the same settings throughout a shoot. Unless I am wrong?

I have also shot flat, and tried grading shots differently, but still trying to be consistent. But it doesn't work. Even if you raise the contrast by 25% for example, you can still tell a difference, when it cuts to the next scene, and the contrast is at 0 or below, if shooting flat. At least I can tell, unless I am paying too much attention.

 

[wheatgrinder]

Contrast has little to do with camera settings. Any setting in camera is just tweaking the data before it gets captured. This is something you DONT want. You want all the data your little camera can capture. Thats why we turn off sharpening, turn off any contrast boosts, any color boost etc.


Set up the lighting so that the brightest subject and darkest area are neither clipping white or going completely black. With DSLR this will by necessity mean your entire scene is lit to within 3 or 4 stops. If you have a light meter you can do this quickly. Its common to go for a 2/4 split (or 4/6, 6/8) .. this means darkest material properly exposed at f2 and lightest properly exposed at f4. Of course your camera can only be set to one fstop setting so you split it.. f3 or so .. hence the 2/4 split. You bring up or bring down light levels so that everything exposes 1 stop below or one stop above f3 for your chosen ISO, Frame rate and shutter speed. This does not tell you HOW to light your scene, only how dark and how light the different areas in the frame can be.

So if you want the high contrast look of half the face in shadow you still position your lights the same, just that you will likely bring up the fill in the shadows to keep it from going completely black..

Shooting flat means that all the data within the frame fall near the middle of the sensors optimal range, that nothing is very dark or very bright, again, not saying the scene cant have variation, rather, you light and capture to keep those variations under control. The goal is to get the data. All the data.
In post you can easily increase saturation to your desired look.

NOTE. Dont expect to drop ONE look or effect on the entire movie and expect it to work, its not like that, it never works out.. Each shot must be CC'd individually, not just corrected by styled too.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. Why must each shot be done individually, when the goal is to make them all look the same though? Wouldn't it be more logical to grade each shot the same so they match to the viewer? Like for example, you don't want to have a Matrix green look on Actor A, then have a Godfather sepia look when you cut to the shot of Actor B of course.

That's just an example, but what's the point of grading each shot differently when the viewer expects a match when cutting from actor to actor, or shot to shot? I'm sorry, I just still don't get why I should do each shot differently, when the goal is to make them look the same and consistent, like you are watching the same movie.

 

[wheatgrinder]

Okay thanks. Why must each shot be done individually, when the goal is to make them all look the same though? Wouldn't it be more logical to grade each shot the same so they match to the viewer? Like for example, you don't want to have a Matrix green look on Actor A, then have a Godfather sepia look when you cut to the shot of Actor B of course.

That's just an example, but what's the point of grading each shot differently when the viewer expects a match when cutting from actor to actor, or shot to shot? I'm sorry, I just still don't get why I should do each shot differently, when the goal is to make them look the same and consistent, like you are watching the same movie.

You want them to LOOK the same yes, Im saying its impossible to apply one look to every shot and have the shots all LOOK the same.. there are too many differences between each shot for that to work.

Pick the shot you think looks best. Correct and grade that shot how you want the entire scene\movie to look then use that as your reference for all the other shots in the scene\movie. Since each shot is different it will require different tweaks to match the reference....

The idea that you can do a "correction pass" shot by shot, and then lay a "look" pass over the top of that never really works out like you think it does. Most times you end up tweaking each shot again anyway..

 

[Metrostar]

NOTE. Dont expect to drop ONE look or effect on the entire movie and expect it to work, its not like that, it never works out.. Each shot must be CC'd individually, not just corrected by styled too.

I have been working on my feature this evening and I can definitely concur with this! I just want to give up, it's so time consuming!

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. But in the projects I have shot so far, I have not been having the problem of shots looking different. The only reason that happens is if a light was poorly placed and does not match the rest of the shots. Or if a light is too close and therefore to bright in one shot, as oppose to being further away in the next. But this did not happen often, and as long as the ISO, WB, Aperture, shutter speed, and picture style, is locked, the shots all looked the same as long as the lighting was consistent.

Is the lighting the only mismatch or do other things in the color cause it?

 

[WalterB]

.....

Is the lighting the only mismatch or do other things in the color cause it?

Have you ever looked at colors?
Have you noticed that yellow is often brighter than blue?
Do you understand color? Saturation? Complementairy colors? Saturation contrast? Saturation affinity? High key? Low key? (It latter 2 are NOT over or under exposing, but use of light or dark colors)

The same settings of light and camera often result in the same look, but not always.
We don't say that you should grade each shot differently (like your green and sepia example), but than in most cases you need to grade each shot individually to get the same look.
I often grade one shot and copy paste those settings and sometimes it's okay like that, sometimes it needs extra tweaking.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. But to me, all the colors seem to look the same in a scene, as long as I have the settings locked. I will keep looking and see if I can find what you mean. If I come across this, then for sure I will correct it.