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How do you write fight scenes like this, believably?

In a lot of movies, there are scenes like this, where a two guys point guns at each other, and then drop them in order to have an unarmed fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5KjROcT4II

Other movies do it too like Coriolanus (2011). Sometimes it's not even to have an armed fight, and one person wants to take the other alive, like Natural Born Killers (1994). I couldn't find those clips online though. But how do you write it so that two guys point guns at each other, and do not shoot. I mean if I myself were in that situation I would shoot if someone pointed a gun at me, and I already had one pointed at them.

I asked a few cops who I acquired for research for the script for, and they said they would shoot immediately as well in those situations, so how do you write a situation where you don't want two armed men to die just yet and point guns at each other without shooting, and make it believable?
 
In a lot of movies, there are scenes like this, where a two guys point guns at each other, and then drop them in order to have an unarmed fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5KjROcT4II

Other movies do it too like Coriolanus (2011). Sometimes it's not even to have an armed fight, and one person wants to take the other alive, like Natural Born Killers (1994). I couldn't find those clips online though. But how do you write it so that two guys point guns at each other, and do not shoot. I mean if I myself were in that situation I would shoot if someone pointed a gun at me, and I already had one pointed at them.

I asked a few cops who I acquired for research for the script for, and they said they would shoot immediately as well in those situations, so how do you write a situation where you don't want two armed men to die just yet and point guns at each other without shooting, and make it believable?

Caveat Emptor, I know next to nothing about filmmaking.

I say this as a longtime advocate of and believer in more realism in motion pictures, novels, comics, etc; don't bother. It's a convention by now. People have seen it so many times, they accept it as just one of those silly things that work in movies and not in reality. Like how everything has to make a sound, foreshadowing, music follows the narrative, etc. Part of the art. I've come to believe realism is more about tone and voice than physics or logic.

On the other hand, it's a cliche. But you already knew that.

As for making it work, channel the idea that these two fellas DIDN'T WANT to shoot each other. They both kinda knew the other would feel the same way, too. So they go into the "gun pointing process" with it in their heads that the other guy doesn't want to pull the trigger either, so they both are at the "if he twitches I'll blow his head off" point. And neither gives a bad move, so they both sorta slowly aim away, then lower their weapons. I'd have them both be very conscious of the other's movements, and have them mirror each other precisely, so as to not give any advantage. (I could see a very Pulp Fiction type scene here, with some funny dialog where they negotiate to mirror one another, set the rules, etc.)

Also, despite what I said about "twitching," you should consider having each guy move. It's much easier to get shot if you're standing still. If you're moving, even at walking speed, you're much harder to hit. You're also much closer to going faster (running or diving/rolling for cover) if need be, since you're already moving. And what's wrong with not being twitchy while heading for cover? Maybe they should be walking before they see each other. Then they each draw a bead, but keep moving. Much easier to believe that way. It seems there are a lot of ways to lessen the unrealistic impact, which should be your goal if you want to keep it as written.

The key is that each of them would rather beat the other to death than shoot him. Shootin's too quick for that *(@*!.

I'm sure it's been done before plenty of times, but, having them both point guns and pull the trigger and find their guns empty is technically a way to fulfill your requirements: they both draw, they both point. Sure, they pull, but it doesn't do anything. So then they go at it hand to hand.

If you insist on making it realistic, just write it differently. They shoot at one another, bobbing and weaving, taking cover, until they're out of ammo. Or until they're both reloading, and they negotiate a "let's step out and settle this hand to hand" agreement.

Hope that helps.
 
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You don't. Those scenes aren't ever convincing (to me).

I suppose the general premise is that the characters are so "honourable" and have so much respect for one another (despite their hate), they'll fight it out "fairly," "man-to-man." I don't buy it, but that seems to be how a number of movies justify it.

Otherwise, you could just written it so both lose their weapons prior to the fight. E.g. One has jumped from a moving car and dropped his gun somewhere. The other goes to shoot him, but is out of ammo. Cue fist fight.
 
Both guys think they're the most bad ass, want to beat the other guy at h2h is a decent motivation. The end of Lethal Weapon is the best example I can think of. They didn't point guns at each other and then hesitate, but they really wanted a piece of each other and Riggs was willing to chuck police procedure and his advantage to give it a whirl. And in that much I think the scene was believable.

Cheese, I think "pride" or "arrogance" make believable substitutes here. Not really for the idiocy of hesitating, but definitely for a believable reason to want to put down the pistols and duke it out.

Edit: I should add the gratuitous advice that it's really, really, really, really realistic to have a couple of people who are both getting an adrenaline dump, shooting at one another and actively moving and/or seeking and using cover fire lots and lots of bullets at one another and not hit a thing. More realistic than having them hit each other, in fact. In my mind, having most of these scenes result in both shooters running out of bullets and having to use other weapons or their hands against one another would be more realistic than not.
 
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Okay thanks. Well the thing is, is that I already have enough scenarios of people running out of bullets and having their guns knocked out of their hands, causing them to have to fight. There are so many times I have to write this, just to have cops get rid of their guns for my story, that I feel it has become to repetitive, and I should come up with new ways for them to loose the guns, so I don't keep using the same two ways.

If a cop and a villain both point guns at each other, but don't shoot and decide to drop their guns, I could write it so that the police captain gets frustrated with this, and thinks he has an arrogant, prideful and macho cop on his hands, who is going to screw up, if he continues to do unintelligent things like that. That way, we have another character commenting on it, so it may come off as more of a natural character flaw, rather than unnatural maybe?
 
If you've watched The Raid II, now that's a film with overly-choreographed, unbelievable (literally) fight scenes if ever I saw them.

I haven't seen 2 yet, but I recall #1 being that way.

Hey everyone lets all stop shooting and fight hand to hand now!!
It was so stupid I've actually recommended to people not to even watch the film.
 
Okay thanks. Well the thing is, is that I already have enough scenarios of people running out of bullets and having their guns knocked out of their hands, causing them to have to fight. There are so many times I have to write this, just to have cops get rid of their guns for my story, that I feel it has become to repetitive, and I should come up with new ways for them to loose the guns, so I don't keep using the same two ways.

This sounds like something that I would turn off mid-viewing.
 
Okay thanks. Well the thing is, is that I already have enough scenarios of people running out of bullets and having their guns knocked out of their hands, causing them to have to fight. There are so many times I have to write this, just to have cops get rid of their guns for my story, that I feel it has become to repetitive, and I should come up with new ways for them to loose the guns, so I don't keep using the same two ways.

If a cop and a villain both point guns at each other, but don't shoot and decide to drop their guns, I could write it so that the police captain gets frustrated with this, and thinks he has an arrogant, prideful and macho cop on his hands, who is going to screw up, if he continues to do unintelligent things like that. That way, we have another character commenting on it, so it may come off as more of a natural character flaw, rather than unnatural maybe?

This doesn't sound like action that advances a narrative, this sounds like fluff.
 
Well it advances the narrative as much as it can, but audiences want action scenes when it comes to thriller stories, so I have to allot for a certain amount of action scenes to appeal the audience. I'd say for a 90-105 minute thriller, you need about 25 minutes action probably.

So that's a lot of shooting and having characters to get rid of guns, in order to not have so many bullets fly, so other characters can get away and live.
 
audiences want action scenes when it comes to thriller stories, so I have to allot for a certain amount of action scenes to appeal the audience. I'd say for a 90-105 minute thriller, you need about 25 minutes action probably.

So that's a lot of shooting and having characters to get rid of guns, in order to not have so many bullets fly, so other characters can get away and live.

Precisely. Fluff.
 
If your action isn't even important to the story then it won't just be mindless, it'll be mind-numbingly boring.

audiences want action scenes when it comes to thriller stories
No, they want to be thrilled. "Thrill" is typically derived from the building of tension and it's inevitable moment of catharsis (how this relief is played usually deems whether it is a satisfactory film or not). Tension and suspense ISN'T derived from action. Action can come (perhaps in that cathartic moment), but it's far more thrilling to watch 2 people stalking each other through an abandoned warehouse, where each turn of a corner could see the death of our hero, than it is to see them punching eachother up. If you want action, then when one eventually finds the other, you can have your punch up.

I haven't written a thriller, or done much study of thrillers (not really my thing), but where did you get your "25 minutes of action" from? I don't recall watching many of films I'd call thrillers having that much action. If '25 minutes of action' is indeed a norm, you either need to be willing to subvert it (as I suggested, lots of thrillers don't have a heap of action - so barely subversive imo) then you need to consider whether you're writing your story in the right genre.
 
No, this is a new script treatment I have. It's the one I wrote from this premise from another thread:

http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=55165

If your action isn't even important to the story then it won't just be mindless, it'll be mind-numbingly boring.


No, they want to be thrilled. "Thrill" is typically derived from the building of tension and it's inevitable moment of catharsis (how this relief is played usually deems whether it is a satisfactory film or not). Tension and suspense ISN'T derived from action. Action can come (perhaps in that cathartic moment), but it's far more thrilling to watch 2 people stalking each other through an abandoned warehouse, where each turn of a corner could see the death of our hero, than it is to see them punching eachother up. If you want action, then when one eventually finds the other, you can have your punch up.

I haven't written a thriller, or done much study of thrillers (not really my thing), but where did you get your "25 minutes of action" from? I don't recall watching many of films I'd call thrillers having that much action. If '25 minutes of action' is indeed a norm, you either need to be willing to subvert it (as I suggested, lots of thrillers don't have a heap of action - so barely subversive imo) then you need to consider whether you're writing your story in the right genre.

I could write suspense sequences like that. Have some stalk someone through a building. I can do it like that if that's better. I just want to write it so it has a general audience appeal. It just seems that audiences prefer more action when it comes to, well let's not call them thrillers, let's call them crime stories.

Even though The Chaser and Eastern Promises are credited as thrillers, they still have fight scenes in like these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrH4WM3fIao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEEcInsy3oA

Those movies are thrillers if I am not mistaken, and the filmmakers felt they had to put in fight scenes to thrill the audience, so wouldn't it be wise to put on in, since other filmmakers are doing it?

I haven't seen either of the The Raid movies, but the action in the trailers does look overdone, considerably. I am going for something much more low key, like The Chaser.
 
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There is a such thing as an action thriller. They exist.
Just like a sci-fi comedy, genres can be blended.

But to say audiences expect action in a thriller is wrong.
 
In some cases, it’s best not to confuse genres. Just because a thriller contains fight sequence or a shoot-out, it doesn’t automatically become an action movie. It’s still a thriller, the action sequences will have just suited the story (or, they’ll have been shoe-horned in for some reason, but that’s a different issue).

The problem with confusing genres is then the lack of understanding of audience expectations. If somebody asked me if I wanted to go watch a thriller, the last thing I’d be expecting is explosions and car chases. I’d be expecting something along the lines of “The Silence Of The Lambs”. If this thriller did contain explosions and car chases, then fine, so long as it works for the story. But it’s not then suddenly an action film.

THRILLER
ACTION

Which is your film, H44? Action or Thriller?

Regardless, none of that really helps in your initial problem, does it?

In “The Raid”, once the cops run out of ammo, they have to fight with their fists. They don’t continually pick up guns, choose not to shoot, put the guns down and fight hand-to-hand. If your characters do this, there’s a problem. I don’t think it’d be a case of just coming up with new ways for these characters to decide to have a fist fight. You may need to change entire scenarios, so that you don’t put your characters into these situations in the first place.
 
I want mine to serve the story of course. I do not want chases or explosions just for the sake of having them. There is one car explosions (which I plan on using action essentials for), but it's just so the villains can cover up evidence of them having used a car, since the cops are chasing them, and they have to get rid of it. That's one example, but it serves the story, since they have to get away.

When it comes to thrillers though, the audience still expects some sort of confrontation though. Audiences do not like characters to surrender quietly. For example, in The Silence of the Lambs, Lecter still had to fight off and kill two cops in order to escape from prison. The cops were not going to surrender quietly.

When Starling goes to question Buffalo Bill, Bill runs away from her, grabs a gun, and she has to sneak around the whole house to find him, and it ends in a gun battle still. If Bill surrendered quietly with no fuss and if the cops surrendered to Lecter with no fuss, audiences would have probably felt cheated. So I still need violent confrontation to thrill the audience, if that makes sense, cause audiences really want cops and criminals to not surrender without putting up a fight in movies.
 
I just want to write it so it has a general audience appeal.

that's the cart before the horse. Don't dictate what happens in your story based off of what you think an audience might enjoy; write a good story, tell it well, and your audience is much more likely to appreciate it.

So I still need violent confrontation to thrill the audience, if that makes sense, cause audiences really want cops and criminals to not surrender without putting up a fight in movies.

Not necessarily true:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=watch?v=hImAmM5-Fpg

Let the story dictate what's needed. Take expectation and turn it on its head (within the rules established by your film). Se7en was a detective thriller that served the entire first two acts as a clue-finding whodunit film, and in an absolutely shocking scene, John Doe just...up and surrenders. What seems like it would lower the stakes actually raised them exponentially due to some amazing story-craft.
 
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