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watch Fight Scene from 2010 Feature Length Film

This is a fight scene from a feature film I shot back in 2010. The picture quality is poor but this was a stepping stone for us to be where we're at now. The fight does showcase some of the energy we've incorporated into our fights today. Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcuadt3KxDk
 
the only comments I have is that the sound feels a bit off and a little "big". The fighters lack emotion.... It's like watching two rock'em sock'em robots kick the hell out of each other... It's fun to watch, but I'm not feeling the fight emotionally.


If it's any help , i've attached a fight scene I directed a couple years ago. Lars Lundegard was the stunt coordinator for the film.

https://vimeo.com/hmmllc/review/47518691/c3f9da66eb try this one...
cheers
geo
 
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Hi Georgia, thank for the comment. This was shot over 2 years and I would say we have improved significantly since then. Your link does not work with me though, could you try re-sending it. Thank you.
 
Great job, overall, but I would agree with Georgia, it lacks the emotional depth that a fight scene needs. A little more variety on sound effects could help, and also a couple close ups of fighters regrouping after getting punched would help bring out the emotion--helping your audience to feel what the actor is going through.

Other than that, I loved your camera movement and that overall stunts of the actors. Great job, and I'm sure you've done even better the last couple years.

Plus, I love Scotsman! They've got to be some of my favorite people--especially "Noble" ones. ;)
 
Thanks for the comment, ZOProductions. I'm glad you like us Scots :)

Hi Georgia, that fight was well executed and filmed. Not too sure about the open palm hits. Also, the 180 degree rule break threw me off the scent slightly.

The camera was also very close in and the cuts were very sharp. I personally don't like this style but this is what Hollywood films and such do these days.
 
This is a fight scene from a feature film I shot back in 2010. The picture quality is poor but this was a stepping stone for us to be where we're at now. The fight does showcase some of the energy we've incorporated into our fights today. Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcuadt3KxDk

the only comments I have is that the sound feels a bit off and a little "big". The fighters lack emotion.... It's like watching two rock'em sock'em robots kick the hell out of each other... It's fun to watch, but I'm not feeling the fight emotionally.


If it's any help , i've attached a fight scene I directed a couple years ago. Lars Lundegard was the stunt coordinator for the film.

https://vimeo.com/hmmllc/review/47518691/c3f9da66eb try this one...
cheers
geo

These are both on the same exact level to me. Both could've used a much more specific approach to camera, as the actors aren't selling the action they're trying to deliver.

Good try to both of you.
 
rules are meant to be broken sometimes... ;)

That might be true but it's very jarring in that scene.

I have to say that I'm not a huge fan of people saying 'this is what's wrong with your film and here's a version where I've done it better'. Not terribly helpful.

@Graeme: I enjoyed your scene and thought it was pretty well choreographed. I think that having proper, professional sound design would help enormously with selling the action but it's definitely a hell of a lot better than I could do. For the film I just shot, we had a single bit where a character has to put another character in a headlock and it was really tricky to do it well- so I have a lot of respect for what you've done!
 
Hey Nick,

First, I never said mine was better, it was just another fight scene. I've shot way better stuff, and I've shot way worse in my career, its just a fight scene.... one of many... Second, i'm not really interested in your opinion.


cheers
geo
 
Hey Nick,

First, I never said mine was better, it was just another fight scene. I've shot way better stuff, and I've shot way worse in my career, its just a fight scene.... one of many... Second, i'm not really interested in your opinion.


cheers
geo



Whatever, Georgia. You posted your fight scene in *response* to someone else posting their fight scene. Whether your fragile ego will admit it or not, the implication you made is that your video is superior. Well, it's not. Your fight scene looks amateur and has a couple clumsy edits. None of my business to point out its flaws until you have the nerve to *post* it as some sort of serum; then you have the nerve to tell Nick that his rather politely preferred opinion doesn't matter to you. It's a forum, lady. It's all about opinions. If you don't wanna hear other people's opinions, go write a blog and disable the comments so you can shout in a vacuum.

Good work, OP. Trim the scene in half or find some sort of situational shift midway through the fight. A couple of the bigger bloke's punches look choreographed, but you've got some brilliant hits, too. I bet you already know what to fix. Just bite the bullet and remove any combat that you think *might* look fake and I'm sure you'll get it right. As for the *sound*, that's a question of genre. As an example, Bourne films aim to be lifelike but Asian films happily go over the top. So you gotta adjust your sound effects to your genre. Great start, though. Sincerely mean it.
 
Hey Nick,

First, I never said mine was better, it was just another fight scene. I've shot way better stuff, and I've shot way worse in my career, its just a fight scene.... one of many... Second, i'm not really interested in your opinion.


cheers
geo

Hmm.

Not a big fan of this attitude, to be honest. We get too many people round here who think they're big-shots and seem to take pleasure from trying to demonstrate their superiority to people who are just starting out or have more limited resources. A couple of people criticise your scene and suddenly you're not interested in people's opinions- bit rich coming from someone who only had criticisms for the OP.
 
As for the *sound*, that's a question of genre. As an example, Bourne films aim to be lifelike but Asian films happily go over the top. So you gotta adjust your sound effects to your genre.

I agree, if you want to make a scene in the style of an incredibly low budget '70s Kung Fu film, with sound so bad the film becomes a comedy rather than a thriller then yes, you can get away with terrible sound design. But, the OP's scene has been created more in the style of the Bourne films than a '70s Kung Fu film!

...the implication you made is that your video is superior. Well, it's not.

You've got to be joking?! Georgia was specifically identifying the sound as a problem in the OP's scene, which it is. The sync is poor in places and the variation, EQ and positioning of the sound FX is particularly poor and the mix overall, including the music, is so poor there's a phasing muddy effect which reduces the clarity, impact and therefore the energy. The opposite of what the OP states he was trying to achieve. These faults all serve to detract from the suspension of disbelief and pulls you out of the scene emotionally rather than into it. Georgia's sound design on the other hand does completely the opposite and you don't think it's better??!!

It sounds like the OP has put a lot of time/effort into the sound of the scene but unfortunately it's rather obvious, he doesn't have the equipment, experience or knowledge to pull it off successfully. I'm not trying to be insulting here, just provide a honest evaluation/criticism which hopefully the OP can gain something from. I believe that's what Georgia was trying to do as well and she has been good enough to post an example of what a well respected audio post professional can accomplish.

By listening and comparing the two clips analytically there is a great deal which can be learnt from Georgia's example but of course if you can't hear the patently obvious difference, can't tell that it's in a different class of craftsmanship or how it benefits the emotional impact of the scene then Georgia was indeed wasting her time and was right to leave this thread.

Not understanding how powerful a filmmaking tool good sound can be, not understanding how it can be used to manipulate audience response and not even being able to tell the difference between good and very poor sound will, IMHO, severely restrict the potential of any filmmaker. You should be thanking Georgia for her contribution to this thread, not insulting her for it. Then again, if her contribution to this thread is literally falling on deaf ears, then maybe by trying to explain it I'm wasting my time too?

G
 
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To AudioPost,

Regardless of whether Georgia's video has better audio than the OP's video, the fact is Georgia posted her unsolicited scene as a sample of a fight scene that deserves to be studied. That's an arrogant thing for her to do and it opens her work up as fair game for criticism. Be honest here, if it's truly necessary to give a didactic example of something, you could quickly scrounge up a scene on YouTube from an existing action flick. Something well known. Something a large number of people acknowledge is good. That's what any decent teacher would do.......... not quote from her own shoddy work. Then she dodged a very accurate and polite criticism of her own visuals with a misleading statement about the "rules." Then she proceeded to deny that she had placed her scene in a superior position to the OP's in the first place, which is a laughable denial. Then she dismisses Nick's tame involvement altogether by saying she's not interested in his opinion. That's rude. Then she bales on the thread as a whole by saying the exchange is wasting her time, which is, I don't know, mate, I don't have the words for that. Self-involved? If you're going to bail, just bail. Don't make a parade out of it so that you get the last word in. That's a schoolyard tactic.

And now you're attempting to defend her actions? You're saying I should "thank her"? Sorry, chum, whatever lecture you're trying to give on the value of audio doesn't do much to salvage this lady's lame behavior.

As to you questioning my judgement on whether her video is truly superior, I stand by my statement -- it ain't. At best, her scene is on par with his. From a standpoint of "Hey, check out this fight scene," both scenes need work. From a post production standpoint, HER fight scene would need just as many hours of re-editing as the OP's fight scene, if not more. For the OP's scene, when it comes to low budget indie stuff like this, he could download fight sound effects from the net or foley them (even un-referenced, if necessary) in his own garage in very little time. Guys do this frequently with really nice fight scenes posted on the high volume YouTube channels and the results are phenomenal. Great look, great sound, great cinema. Moreover, the OP simply needs to REMOVE certain shots from his piece to improve. That's easy. Removing stuff is easy. That's not the same burden as Georgia having to CREATE new visuals to make her scene pop. Because, as you seem to be shirking from admitting, if Georgia wants to make her scene better than the OP's as a whole, she'd need to reshoot certain parts of her visuals or do some major picture edits to make her fight look better. Doing the math on this labor, since her scene potentially needs MORE post production hours to be an exciting scene, I'll state it again, her video isn't superior.

It's an opinion either way, but since you're choosing to use words like "patently obvious" and insinuate that anyone who doesn't feel as you do has "deaf ears," you've opened the door up for opinions to become absolutes.
 
Look, this thread should never have become a comparison between the two scenes, that's where my problem lies.

The OP came here, asking for comments and advice on his own fight scene and very few people have bothered actually give him proper feedback on his film.

@APE: I'm not sure whether you've worked with Georgia or something but I can't understand that any disinterested party would be talking about that scene as though it were leagues ahead of Graeme's. It's a very different sort of fight, with a lot less choreography and, whilst the sound design might be much better, as a number of experienced people have noted on this thread (including Kholi, who is a superb cinematographer and director) there are a number of ways in which it is still lacking. I think that both of them have done good jobs to produce their fight scenes, and deserve credit for that. I just don't like the unreserved criticism mixed with the implicit suggestion that 'you could learn something from my scene...'
 
I'm not sure whether you've worked with Georgia or something but I can't understand that any disinterested party would be talking about that scene as though it were leagues ahead of Graeme's.

I've never worked with, met or to the best of my knowledge ever communicated directly with Georgia or even previously heard any of her work. I'm going purely on the merit of the two clips and the fact that Georgia was specifically evaluating/criticising the sound. In this regard, her work is clearly in a completely different league to Graeme's.

From a post production standpoint, HER fight scene would need just as many hours of re-editing as the OP's fight scene, if not more.

Georgia's scene is ready for broadcast/distribution whereas Graeme's would virtually need to be dumped in it's entirety and the audio post production started again from scratch. How on earth is Georgia's scene going to require more hours of re-editing than the OP's???

As to you questioning my judgement on whether her video is truly superior, I stand by my statement -- it ain't.

Georgia posted her unsolicited scene as a sample of a fight scene that deserves to be studied. That's an arrogant thing for her to do and it opens her work up as fair game for criticism.

...It's an opinion either way, but since you're choosing to use words like "patently obvious" and insinuate that anyone who doesn't feel as you do has "deaf ears," you've opened the door up for opinions to become absolutes.

Graeme is obviously a newbie/amateur when it comes to sound. No disrespect intended to Graeme, we all have to start somewhere.

Georgia on the other hand is a member of the MPSE (Motion Picture Sound Editors) guild and of the CAS (cinema Audio Society), these aren't organisations you pay to join, you must be invited and nominated. This means that not only must Georgia have been a respected audio post professional for a minimum of 5 years but she has also been judged by a panel of world class audio post professionals to have made "an outstanding contribution to his or her field of endeavor"!

Ironic you should describe Georgia as arrogant while at the same time putting your opinion (as someone with no professional audio experience) against my professional opinion, Georgia's opinion and by implication, that of a number of the world's top audio post professionals! If you honestly believe a beginner is creating better sound than such an internationally recognised and respected professional then yes, I question both your opinion and your judgement and IMHO, feel that maybe you should also.

IndieTalk is lucky to have someone of Georgia's knowledge, experience and professional reputation providing advice and even samples of her work. To be honest, I'm deeply shocked that not one of the recent posters to this thread seems able to tell the difference between very poor sound and good sound or recognise the difference between a beginner and a top professional. :(

G
 
Graeme is obviously a newbie/amateur when it comes to sound. No disrespect intended to Graeme, we all have to start somewhere.

Georgia on the other hand is a member of the MPSE (Motion Picture Sound Editors) guild and of the CAS (cinema Audio Society), these aren't organisations you pay to join, you must be invited and nominated. This means that not only must Georgia have been a respected audio post professional for a minimum of 5 years but she has also been judged by a panel of world class audio post professionals to have made "an outstanding contribution to his or her field of endeavor"!

Ironic you should describe Georgia as arrogant while at the same time putting your opinion (as someone with no professional audio experience) against my professional opinion, Georgia's opinion and by implication, that of a number of the world's top audio post professionals! If you honestly believe a beginner is creating better sound than such an internationally recognised and respected professional then yes, I question both your opinion and your judgement and IMHO, feel that maybe you should also.

IndieTalk is lucky to have someone of Georgia's knowledge, experience and professional reputation providing advice and even samples of her work. To be honest, I'm deeply shocked that not one of the recent posters to this thread seems able to tell the difference between very poor sound and good sound or recognise the difference between a beginner and a top professional. :(

This thread is absolutely nothing to do with her and, look what's happened, Graeme wants to get judged fairly and at his own level and ends up being called a 'newbie' and an 'amateur'.

I don't know about Graeme but I'd be pissed to read people singing the praises of someone else on a thread he created to try and get some feedback and constructive advice about his own filmmaking. You'll notice that pretty much every comment about Georgia's scene has focused on the camerawork, not the sound, so why you feel the need to keep returning to this comparison is a mystery to me.
 
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