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Field Recording/ mixer+recorder question

M

MirageFilms

I currently use two cameras in my work. I do documentary film and non-fiction commercial work. I use a JVC HM-100 and a Panasonic GH1. For commercial work I run dual sound with the DSLR and sync audio in post. I want to improve my audio recording. I currently use a Zoom H4. The pre-amp and gain controls aren't very good on the recorder. I either end up with too much hiss or audio signal levels that are too low with the H4.

I am looking at getting a field mixer. 1. So I can add more audio inputs and have greater control over sound mixing. 2. I want to use it as a pre-amp to solve the gain problem with the recorder. I am also hoping to try and improve my sound recording skills with multiple mics with practice projects.

Sound is my weak point. Is this a good option for achieving better sound with the same recorder? Also, if anyone has any good suggestions for a field mixer for around $300, or can tell me some details on important specs I should look at before buying a mixer. Thanks
 
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For $300 you will not get anything that will be much better than the Zoom. Yes, you will get increased gain, but depending upon the mixer, you may need in-line pads (as much as -50db) as the output from the mixer may be too hot for the inputs of the Zoom.

The only "budget" field mixers that I would recommend (and I've only used them direct to camera) are the PSC DVPro-Mix 3, the Sign Video ENG-44 and the Rolls MX422. They are all in the $400 to $550 range. I do not know if you will need the in-line pads (you'll need two at about $25 to $50 each depending upon how much attenuation you need).

Besides the Zoom, what other gear do you have? I would assume that you already have a shotgun and a hyper-cardioid with a boom-pole, shock-mount, blimp, dead cat, etc. Why do you need the extra channels on the mixer?
 
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I have the H4. The pre-amp in that one seems to be quieter than the H4n from everyone I have talked to. The H4 was kind of a disappointment to be honest.

My audio equipment consists of two cardiod shotgun mics (Azden SMG-1X/ Rode NTG-2), two wireless lav systems (Sennheiser G2 and G1 system), and a stereo condenser mic (AKG C1000s).

That's good info. for me to know about the line-in pads. Would the mixers you do recommend be a viable solution to the gain issues. I can't bump the gain level on the H4 above low, or there is too much hiss. When it's on low gain my db levels on the H4 read at around -30db to -35db. This is with a shotgun a couple feet from a vocal sound source.

I wanted to get a mixer to fix that issue and I wanted to do some more complex audio capture in some video work with a friend on multi-camera shoots.
 
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The issue of low gain with the NTG-2 - as well as the mk012 - has come to light in recent months. The much more expensive mics seem to have better luck as they have higher output gain. As I've mentioned before, the Zoom and similar products are aimed at musicians who tend to work at much higher volume levels (think Metal, etc.) than production sound for film/video.

And that's another issue with the Zoom and similar recorders; they do not allow for proper gain-staging.

The H4 has dedicated line-in inputs which the H4n does not. The H4n requires -50db padding, the H4 may only need about -10db depending upon which mixer you get.
 
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ROC said:
The Zoom doesn't have a mic/line input switch?
Click to expand...

Nope. Neither is there pre-amp gain control, only input level control.

The H4n is low impedance for both the XLR and 1/4" inputs. I've heard stories of people plugging a live console XLR to 1/4" inputs of the H4n and frying the mic pres.

The original H4 has low impedance XLR input and high impedance 1/4" input, although the 1/4" is much more sensitive than is the norm.
 
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Wow. Interesting.

I don't think turning a line level down 50dB to then be recorded on the H4n newly through it's pres would sound very good, but I guess you have to do what you have to do, huh?
 
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The H4/H4n and all of their cousins (Tascam DR series, Alesis Palm, etc.) were never meant for production sound; they are aimed at musicians. Let's face it, not many film/video folks need a tuner, a metronome, or distortion or the other 49 effects. The mic pre-amps have intentionally low input levels; they are meant for screaming vocalists, blaring guitars and pounding drums. That's one reason why Zoom can get away with such high noise floor levels.

The only reason that the H4n is popular is that it's $300 and is the only one in that price range that has XLR inputs. For another $200 to $300 you can purchase a true budget field recorder aimed at production sound usage.
 
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Thanks for the insight on recorders Alcove. And we've got people like Steve Weiss and Philip Bloom selling the Zoom recorders as solid audio recorders for video sound. (Though, to be honest, both of those guys annoy me).

It sounds like I would be best off investing in a solid recorder then, as a next step in improving my sound equipment. Are there any solid true budget field recorders you recommend Alcove?

I am also looking for a book on the theory and technical skills behind sound design, specifically aimed at those who work in video production. If you have any favorites, I would love to get a recommendation on a good one.
 
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Yup, they're being PAID to SELL a PRODUCT by the MANUFACTURER; of course they sing its praises. It will also be in their contract as an endorser of the product that they will not say negative things about the manufacturer or the manufacturers products in other forums. I'm sure that they have a Zoom as a back-up to the back-up of the second back-up system. That is not the same as reliance upon it as a first line professional unit.

Check out the Oade Brothers web site. They do modifications on the most popular budget field audio recorders such as the Fostex FR2-LE, the Edirol R44 and the Tascam HD-P2 plus others, although those three are the most popular. Oade rebuilds/restructures/replaces the signal path and reinforces a few of the controllers (details vary depending upon which recorder, obviously). The most amazing part is that the modded recorders don't cost much more than if you buy the original unit from a retailer. (And no, I don't work for or endorse them.)
 
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General

Sound Design: The Expressive Power of Music, Voice and Sound Effects in Cinema - David Sonnenschein

The Practical Art of Motion Picture Sound - David Lewis Yewdall

Audio-Vision - Michel Chion, Claudia Gorbman, and Walter Murch

Producing Great Sound for Film and Video - Jay Rose

Lowering the Boom: Critical Studies in Film Sound - Jay Beck and Tony Grajeda



Specific

The Sound Effects Bible: How to Create and Record Hollywood Style Sound Effects - Ric Viers

The Foley Grail: The Art of Performing Sound for Film, Games, and Animation - Vanessa Theme Ament

Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures: A Guide to the Invisible Art - John Purcell


I've read lots of other books, but these are my faves. You may also want to check out filmsound.org and, believe it or not, there are some really great vids on YouTube; and Rode University, even though it touts their products, has some great information. Oh, yeah; here's a link to my blog that gives the raw basics so you have an idea of what everyone else is talking about.

http://www.myspace.com/alcoveaudio/blog
 
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Thanks for all the advice. After looking at some of your books and looking through the table of contents on some others I bought Sound for Television and Film (3rd Ed.) by Tomlinson Holman. Looking forward to reading it.
 
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