Drat, blast, d@mnit, just venting

G

gorillaonabike

D@mnit. So far, I have co-produced (and acted in) a great little short. However, when it came to doing my own short, it was a nightmare.

All my pre was great, the shoot went down with a few hitches but nothing too major and my first 'all my own short' will be OK(ish) provided I can get myself a nice composer. However, what has driven me nuts is people promising to do something and simply not doing it. My nice editor, a talented young guy, simply did not edit. Sure, he is learning and at some point will get moving and do stuff but he does not have a job, earns no money and has all the time in the world to edit.

Now, I am lumbered with this, have to learn to edit on a completely alien package and am sorting it out myself. In addition, if he'd just let me get on with it myself, I'd have had a completed package months ago but he committed to something and simply didn't do it.

And on the second shoot I foolishly left a chunk of pre to someone else meaning the whole thing went pear shaped. It's not a huge issue as it was a learning experience - that I should take care of my own pre.

My next short will be better but I just wanted to vent... AAAARGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!

OK, that feels better... Incidentally, does anyone else have this problem?
 
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Oh yeah, plenty of times!

The one thing that sometimes helps is to agree to a deadline in advance - with some (but not all) people that limits procrastination.

Also if you're paying people (even a small amount), pay them part up front and the rest when it's done (or gradually as certain targets are made).

Good luck!
 
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Every shoot. But, when doing so, you find the people who are as into it as you, and keep inviting them back. Eventually, you have a whole crew of dedicated on the ball people on your set.
 
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knightly said:
Every shoot. But, when doing so, you find the people who are as into it as you, and keep inviting them back. Eventually, you have a whole crew of dedicated on the ball people on your set.
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I have an awesome DoP. I can't believe how amazing this guy is for absolutely free. I'll lose him soon as he's just getting waaayyyy too busy with paid stuff.
 
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If you can't find a composer there are two options for getting music for your short:

1) You can find a music creation program, one I have used that you can get a demo of is Fruityloops - there may be others you can use too.

2) Use some royalty free music. I found a site that I have used before:

http://incompetech.com/

There you will find music that is free to download. You may not find what you're after but if you do and you only like a portion of the music you can edit out what you like and use that.
 
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A clusterfudge is pretty much how most fledgling projects sound like.
Unless you're with an an exceptional bunch of friends it often takes several of these projects to develop a tight crew that actually givadam, pay or no pay.
 
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We got the knife in the back last night ourselves.

Got Kohlman Files back from the guy doing VFX and color correction on it and there are multiple problems. The guy had this footage for close to 6 weeks and what I got back was a mediocre color correction and very few of the things that VFX could have fixed (for example the half frame flash from a camera flash discussed in another thread) actually fixed. On top of this there is a scene where he did digital zoom on a shot and forgot to re-size the resulting frame back to 1920x1080 so for about 3 seconds the screen goes letterbox. What this last one tells me is that he couldn't even be bothered to watch the damn thing after he rendered it out because there is NO WAY he could have missed that one if he had.

Luckily he gave me back the drive with the project and all the files, BUT he used CS6 not CS5.5, so now I have to take the afternoon off work download CS6 trial, and fix his major screw ups for the screening this weekend. Going to have someone re-do the whole project, but right now just have to get the worst things resolved so it's presentable enough to show people this weekend.

This is a guy who is very talented and I KNOW has the ability to do a good job, he just didn't give a shit. I'd be less pissed if he hadn't really hounded me about letting him do this post work. Begs me to let him do it, then does a shitty job. ARGH!
 
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For these significant projects, do you guys consider giving material copies to editors to do their thing while retaining originals to just discreetly edit it yourself for your own version to compare semi-finished products?

Or am I being ridiculously paranoid?
I should just trust people more often, right? (FWIW, I wanna be wrong, but am afraid.
what.gif
)
 
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I do retain everything and the "deliverable" from the person is a hard drive with their project files on it (so I don't have to start from scratch), but I have my own stuff to do (producer duties like promotion, etc...) I don't really have the time to do post work I SHOULD never have to use.

I wasn't paying this guy, BUT as the mantra goes, that's totally irrelevant. If you say you will do it, then you should do it 110% to the absolute best of your ability. If you don't want to do that, say so and don't take the gig.

It's not a disaster. I can make it presentable over the next couple of days, it's just about the 3rd or 4th time on this project that something I haven't really experienced before has happened. People I trusted letting me down.
 
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Rodney Petrie said:
If you can't find a composer there are two options for getting music for your short:

1) You can find a music creation program, one I have used that you can get a demo of is Fruityloops - there may be others you can use too.

2) Use some royalty free music. I found a site that I have used before:

http://incompetech.com/

There you will find music that is free to download. You may not find what you're after but if you do and you only like a portion of the music you can edit out what you like and use that.
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Thanks for this. Incidentally, I am fortunate to have the services of an (amateur) award-winning pianist. This individual has done everything from playing piano in a bar to accompanying professional classical musicians (including the best in Europe), won the oldest schools music prize in the UK and recorded for shows like 'Man in Music' which was on Channel 4 and still holds the record for viewers on a classical music documentary.

That's 'me' by the way. I'm not a patch on what I used to be, especially after a few beers, but still have a few skills.

In addition, I have a heap of royalty free music but all advice on where to find more of this stuff is great.

However, I am open to someone else with more focused skills if they are willing to do it for free because of the time issue. I have another short coming up plus need to colour etc...
 
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Gonzo_Entertainment said:
We got the knife in the back last night ourselves.

Got Kohlman Files back from the guy doing VFX and color correction on it and there are multiple problems. The guy had this footage for close to 6 weeks and what I got back was a mediocre color correction and very few of the things that VFX could have fixed (for example the half frame flash from a camera flash discussed in another thread) actually fixed. On top of this there is a scene where he did digital zoom on a shot and forgot to re-size the resulting frame back to 1920x1080 so for about 3 seconds the screen goes letterbox. What this last one tells me is that he couldn't even be bothered to watch the damn thing after he rendered it out because there is NO WAY he could have missed that one if he had.

Luckily he gave me back the drive with the project and all the files, BUT he used CS6 not CS5.5, so now I have to take the afternoon off work download CS6 trial, and fix his major screw ups for the screening this weekend. Going to have someone re-do the whole project, but right now just have to get the worst things resolved so it's presentable enough to show people this weekend.

This is a guy who is very talented and I KNOW has the ability to do a good job, he just didn't give a shit. I'd be less pissed if he hadn't really hounded me about letting him do this post work. Begs me to let him do it, then does a shitty job. ARGH!
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I feel your pain, particularly as I am experiencing it myself! AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Gonzo_Entertainment said:
I do retain everything and the "deliverable" from the person is a hard drive with their project files on it (so I don't have to start from scratch), but I have my own stuff to do (producer duties like promotion, etc...) I don't really have the time to do post work I SHOULD never have to use.

I wasn't paying this guy, BUT as the mantra goes, that's totally irrelevant. If you say you will do it, then you should do it 110% to the absolute best of your ability. If you don't want to do that, say so and don't take the gig.

It's not a disaster. I can make it presentable over the next couple of days, it's just about the 3rd or 4th time on this project that something I haven't really experienced before has happened. People I trusted letting me down.
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It is almost as if we are discussing the same guy!!! Very talented, better than me, did not deliver on time!!!!!
 
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It's called "professional pride" and some people don't have it. He's a kid, in his early 20's. I guess he really doesn't grasp that my once stellar recommendation of him for paying gigs is now "He did a very marginal job and took no responsibility for delivering a quality job on time". My co-producer was LITERALLY about to recommend him to a friend for a paying gig (likely several thousand bucks doing post on a reality show pilot). Needless to say, that recommendation was cancelled.
 
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rayw said:
Yes, but do you typically do your own edit in tandem with the editor, supposedly editing faster and better than you?
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The point of hiring an outside editor is not solely because they can do it faster and better (although these things help). Usually a director would sit in with the editor so that there's constant consultation, but, even if you're doing it remotely, the communication will still be there. What the external editor gives you is a sense of distance- they're not related to the production, so they don't have little bits and pieces that they treasure or things from the set that they're desperate to bring in. They'll simply watch the footage and cut it in the best way possible for an audience who, like them, weren't present during production. The more you have invested in your film, the harder it is to edit it with the requisite ruthless and disinterested eye.

For The Flight of the Flamingo, whilst Cracker Funk is going to be editing the film, I'll probably tinker with a few scenes for a variety of purposes. Sometimes it'll be so that I can give the editor a rough idea of how I want the scene to look (especially when we're using single, long takes), sometimes it will be so that I can send stuff through straight away to the composer or other post-crew and, sometimes, it will be for promotional things, such as making sure that an actor has footage for their showreel or putting together something that I can show people who've invested in the movie.

These are just my thoughts, I guess everyone has a different process.
 
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NickClapper said:
The point of hiring an outside editor is not solely because they can do it faster and better (although these things help). Usually a director would sit in with the editor so that there's constant consultation, but, even if you're doing it remotely, the communication will still be there. What the external editor gives you is a sense of distance- they're not related to the production, so they don't have little bits and pieces that they treasure or things from the set that they're desperate to bring in. They'll simply watch the footage and cut it in the best way possible for an audience who, like them, weren't present during production. The more you have invested in your film, the harder it is to edit it with the requisite ruthless and disinterested eye.
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You're definitely correct in pointing out the fact that hiring an editor makes it much easier to kill your babies. I think it's a lot more than that, though. I think it's also true that a fresh pair of eyes can really help you see stuff that you might not have seen before.

As far as anything being "better", well that's obviously a loaded and subjective term. A simple matter of style and taste would make one person's better another person's worst. But that's kind of only as far as the style and pacing of the edit are concerned. In my opinion, I would call that the art of editing, and as with any work of art, the quality of one's work is 100% subjective.

But then there's what I would call the craft of editing. As with any aspect of filmmaking, there's a blurry line separating art from craft, but I do think that a distinction can be made. And craft just comes with time and practice. In addition to time and practice, it's also true that different people are suited better for different crafts, mainly because of their level of interest. For example, audio editing and video editing both require an incredible amount of patience and attention to the finest detail. I possess those qualities, and yet I'm a horrible audio editor. I think that's simply just because my level of interest isn't the same, so I wouldn't ever apply the same level of attention to detail as I would with video, and I probably wouldn't even notice as much detail, even if I were trying to (actually, I'm kinda good at editing music, but I think that's not the same as editing audio, in general).

For example, something as simple as continuity takes a lot of work, and sometimes some real creative puzzle-solving. That's the craft, and like any craft, practice makes perfect (or, at least better). Filmmaking is all about specialization. We can't all be awesome at everything, so put work in the hands of people who have practiced a particular craft.

The question of how much a director is or should be involved is entirely up to the director and producer, and wouldn't/shouldn't be the same for every production. As far as Hollywood editors are concerned, though I don't have first-hand knowledge, sources I've trusted have reported to me that the director's involvement in the edit can be wildly different, from one to another. Some directors won't let anyone else edit their work. Some directors will hire an editor, but want to sit next to them throughout the entire edit. Some directors will only occasionally check in. Some directors want nothing to do with editing.

Nick, it's a little different for you, since you're not just director but producer. And while a director can opt out of the edit, a producer obviously cannot. But again, your level of involvement is up to you. With us being separated by an ocean, obviously we can't do the sitting-next-to-each-other thing. But how often do you check in? Daily? Weekly? Wait until I've got a rough cut? And how in-depth do you want to call for changes? Are you going to critique it frame-by-frame? Or are you just going to comment on moods/pacing? All of that is entirely the choice of the you, the producer.

Excepting for a few trailers, this is only the 2nd time I'll have edited anything other than my own work, so I can't comment on what might be typical. Though, I'd venture to guess that most directors and producers would want to stay fairly closely involved with the edit, if not entirely on top of it.

Traveling new territory is fun, no? I'm pretty excited about it, and am hoping this leads to more editing jobs.
 
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