Discouraging web essay ("Don't make a film...")

[Joe999]

I came across this website today when googling for "what does a producer do"; anyhow, it is sure is discouraging -- spells it out that competition is so fierce for filmmaking that one's chances of making an indie film that gets seen let alone makes money is all but zero. I would be interested in thoughts or feedback on this article, how realistic or unrealistic are the essay author's thoughts, etc.
http://www.stillbreathing.com/onlocation/tenthings01.html

 

[Beeblebrox]

I don't know who Jim Robinson is, but there wasn't any point in there that I really disagree with.

 

[Joe999]

Well, in the least don't you think the author (Jim Robinson) uses hyperbole? I quote him "For a film to exist,... It means ... a couple thousand business lunches, fifty thousand or so phone calls and three hundred shouting matches."

I don't know who Jim Robinson is, but there wasn't any point in there that I really disagree with.

 

[Beeblebrox]

Your mileage may vary. I can't say this was my experience with my first film (thank goodness) but it is with many - especially with bigger budgets. But really I mean to agree with his overall points, not so much the individual details.

 

[Loud Orange Cat]

I do it all for fun.

 

[John@Bophe]

I do it all for fun.

Right on, ROB!

 

[Joe999]

Yes it probably is true what that author says, at least that 400 or so feature films are made each year by filmmaker wannabees as well as the major studios, i.e. about a film a day. All hoping for fame and fortune. What I have to wonder though, and I am speaking from deep within the dark abyss of ignorance, is what percentage of those 400 films are of high [studio] quality--proper lighting, a great script, composed music; and how many are of the ultra low budget no budget with no talent actors, crappy lighting, cheap loop music, etc. (I have seen a more than a few of these no budget cheap horror flicks for rent at Blockbuster, and I am befuddled how they made it to the shelf for rental-- did the producers sleep with a distributor, or are they the granddaughter of a Hollywood mogul, or what?

So I guess I am asking or speculating on the importance of QUALITY. If a producer really puts together a budget to allow for good actors, maybe even a name actor, and has a kick-ass DP, a kick-ass film score, a great script-- what are the odds of making it to the big screen, or at least straight to video and other windows? I would think that sort of film quality would put one above many of those 400 films cranked out each year?

Your mileage may vary. I can't say this was my experience with my first film (thank goodness) but it is with many - especially with bigger budgets. But really I mean to agree with his overall points, not so much the individual details.

 

[StevenUK]

I do it all for fun.

Yep, me too. If you have that attitude every success is brilliant and every failure a learning experience.

I never plan to make any money out of my film work, but that doesn't mean I don't try to make them commercial viable... just in case.

I suppose, for me, people watching my work (without being forced) and enjoying it is my goal at this stage.

Steven

 

[clive]

The idea that the market is saturated with good product just isn't true... it isn't. The opposite is true

So whilst it is true that everyone and their dog is writing a script... and, it's also true that more and more people are pushing films into production... what isn't true is that there is a glut of good product.

The real problems with the industry can be nailed down to a couple of simple issues:

1) Everyone thinks they can write a movie script... but almost nobody can (caused mainly by the fact many people can't tell the difference between having an idea for a movie and writing a script)
2) Everyone thinks they can direct a movie... but almost nobody can (caused by people thinking that watching movies is an education in itself)
3) The people who think they can write scripts have absolutely no idea what the basic requirements of the industry are... are also unwilling to accept constructive criticism... and enter the market place often without ever having read a professional screenplay
4) The people who attempt to produce and direct movies by and large can't direct actors; have limited technical skills; can't tell a good script from a bad one; can't tell a good performance from a bad one; and, fervently believe they can recreate a Hollywood movie on a sub $500 camcorder... because everything can be fixed in post.

The end result of this mass delusion, is a spec script market that is harder to get into than it was fifteen years ago... because producer's and agent's offices are drowning in a deluge of unreadable crap.

The film market is suffering from the same problems... the sheer weight of technically inept, ill-conceived crude is over whelming sales agents and distributors.

Now, the real problem isn't that people are trying to write scripts or even that they are trying to make films... the real problem is that almost everyone seems to think they can enter the industry without any real effort.

People take their first idea... turn it into a script and then fling that script out into the market

People take their first idea... turn it into a script, make a film... and then throw that into the market.

The problem isn't that people try... it's that they appear to have very little critical ability when it applies to their own work.

 

[Joe999]

I have to believe that is true. And as I keep studying screenwriting, and write my own scripts, I keep hearing that 90% of scripts are not even structured properly (Syd Field method, Hero's Journey, et al), another 5% do not have a good concept. So having a good concept and good structure puts a script into the top 5% right there. Then as you suggest I imagine everybody is running out with $1000 digital camcorders to make a movie, perhaps even with onboard shotgun mics, music loop or $99 casio keyboard soundtrack music.

The idea that the market is saturated with good product just isn't true... it isn't. The opposite is true

So whilst it is true that everyone and their dog is writing a script... and, it's also true that more and more people are pushing films into production... what isn't true is that there is a glut of good product. ...

1) Everyone thinks they can write a movie script... but almost nobody can (caused mainly by the fact many people can't tell the difference between having an idea for a movie and writing a script)....

 

[clive]

Ahh... but there is a flip side to this:

For every three writers who are writing from ignorance, there are another two who think anything high concept and structured to the hero's journey will automatically work... unfortunately that isn't true either. There is no magic formula.

And... the truth is acquisition format is largely irrelevant if you get the lighting, story, actors, sound, art direction and marketing right.

There are still just as many indies who think that HD, a 35mm adaptor, magic bullet and a few AE effects are enough to make a movie... and along side them another group who think enough of a budget, a professional camera, gaffer, sound guy and a name actor is the formula to success.

THERE IS NO FORMULA... If you want to make it in the industry make great films... that's it... period.

But with that said, knowledge is better than ignorance... and, a poor formula script is always going to be better than a poor, structure-less script.

I think the formula for development is basically... have an idea, write it, let people with more experience read it, learn from their notes... then try making something on zero budget. See for yourself what happens when your script interacts with the production process. Then with that experience hit the books, start with a new concept and write from what you've learned... by the time you've done that half a dozen times a writer will get to the point where they know what they are doing.

When it comes to production shoot on the best format you can afford... work with the best actors you can afford... hire as many professional crew as you can afford... and, finally never compromise even when the budget is zero.

 

[Beeblebrox]

I would think that sort of film quality would put one above many of those 400 films cranked out each year?

I think that's right. But the problem is that everyone we're talking about thinks that THEY have that film, the one that's going to break out ala Blair Witch. And as we're saying, 99% of those people are deluded about their own work.

I just sold a no-budget psychological thriller that will be on the Blockbuster shelves next spring. And believe me, I didn't sleep with anyone to get there. I'm not related to any moguls (I wish!). In fact, while I do have a couple of good contacts, I didn't use any of them. My movie spoke for itself. We sent it blindly to a few reps, one picked it up and sent it to his contacts, and one of them decided to buy the movie. So whatever you may think of these films, someone has to actually LIKE the movies they pick up, whether they're sleeping with the filmmaker or not.

At the end of the day, I don't think anyone should be actively discouraged from pursuing their dreams. But you have to have some realistic idea of what you can do and what your film is. Like those contestants on American Idol, even among the very few actual talents, only a handful have what it takes to be professional singers.

 

[Joe999]

I am sure your movie is good. But please, somebody go rent and watch these two movies, on the shelf at Blockbuster. Tell me how the frick these two films made it to Blockbuster-- I can not imagine any distributor thinking there was ANY redeeming quality to horror flicks like these (I watched them and they SUCKED BIG TIME; read the reviews for these at Blockbuster--my opinion was not isolated):
http://www.blockbuster.com/catalog/movieDetails/251282
http://www.blockbuster.com/catalog/movieDetails/336273
So my point, and remaining question, is how do crap arse movies like the above make it to DVD rental? And if such crap arse titles like the two listed above can make it, well pretty much any junk should in theory get a straight to DVD rental deal. Personally I would be embarassed to produce such junk as those two titles above, but perhaps their producers are smiling all the way to the bank for all I know.

... So whatever you may think of these films, someone has to actually LIKE the movies [distributors] pick up, whether [the producers are] sleeping with the filmmaker or not....

 

[knightly]

Here's mine that convinced me I'm not so bad...

http://www.blockbuster.com/catalog/movieDetails/178357

 

[Beeblebrox]

Personally I would be embarassed to produce such junk as those two titles above, but perhaps their producers are smiling all the way to the bank for all I know.

First of all, considering you may very well be one of these titles that someone bags on so dismissively, you may want to cool it a bit. There are undoubtedly going to be detractors of your work, even if it's good.

Second, when you're dealing with budgets this small and inexperienced filmmakers, the bottom line is that not everyone is going to like it (or appreciate it) and not every has to. That's the beauty of such low budgets is that you don't have to appeal to as many people in order to make your money back. Peppered in all the negative reviews of these movies are a few fans who like them. And that's all you can realistically wish for at this level. The Blair Witch Projects of the world that break out and become huge box office bonanzas are one in a million, and even that film has its fair share of naysayers ("how did this crap get made?!") to say the least.

The bottom line is that these guys have accomplished what you, thus far, have not. They made a movie and got it on a store shelf. And that may seem like a small feat to you, until you've tried it.

 

[Joe999]

That is a cheap shot appealing to the fact that I have not made a film yet--that is not the issue, and not the point. The point is how do garbage films make it to the rental shelf at blockbuster. Of course opinions vary, but look at the reviews for those two films--they are utter garbage as evidenced by the statistical star rating system and also the written reviews by those duped into renting them, and if you think there is redeeming quality in them go rent and watch them-- it is painful to sit through more than 10 minutes watching them. Of course they are completed films, but they do not belong on the rental shelf of Blockbuster as a ruse to customers seeking films that have at least some redeeming quality to shell out $5 to rent them. So yeah, the producers of those films got them to the Blockbuster shelf, but why, and how? And if that quality of material can make it to DVD rental than I guess anything can, and the question of quality for making it to DVD rental is moot.

First of all, considering you may very well be one of these titles that someone bags on so dismissively, you may want to cool it a bit. There are undoubtedly going to be detractors of your work, even if it's good.

Second, when you're dealing with budgets this small and inexperienced filmmakers, the bottom line is that not everyone is going to like it (or appreciate it) and not every has to. That's the beauty of such low budgets is that you don't have to appeal to as many people in order to make your money back. Peppered in all the negative reviews of these movies are a few fans who like them. And that's all you can realistically wish for at this level. The Blair Witch Projects of the world that break out and become huge box office bonanzas are one in a million, and even that film has its fair share of naysayers ("how did this crap get made?!") to say the least.

The bottom line is that these guys have accomplished what you, thus far, have not. They made a movie and got it on a store shelf. And that may seem like a small feat to you, until you've tried it.

 

[directorik]

"but they do not belong on the rental shelf of Blockbuster"

I guess I better not tell you the titles of movies I have
directed or produced or written that have gotten release on DVD
and made a profit. And sit on the shelf of rental stores.

Yours is quite a cheap shot at those of us who enjoy making
movies. I respect that you want to only make movies that are up
to your quality standards. But to make a statement like that -
that movies you don't like don't even belong on the shelves of
renal stores or that my movies are a "ruse to customers" shows
disrespect for other filmmakers.

m. So yeah, the producers of those films got them to the Blockbuster shelf, but why, and how?

I wonder if you are really interested in the answer. You have condemned
the producers (like me) who make these movies and don't seem too
open minded. I know from reading your other posts that you aren't a
closed minded person and that you are passionate about making movies.
Maybe you should lighten up a little and show more respect toward
fellow filmmakers who don't feel exactly the same way you do.

There are other points of view - and they are just as valid as yours.

EDIT: After posting and rereading I think this came of harsher than I
intended. I understand that many filmmakers think that making
anything less then "quality" movies is not living up to the
potential. And I usually don't even give it a second because
I really love what I do. Even when I'm making a $20,000
horror movie with a bad script.

 

[Joe999]

...I wonder if you are really interested in the answer. You have condemned
the producers (like me) who make these movies and don't seem too open minded. I know from reading your other posts that you aren't a closed minded person and that you are passionate about making movies. Maybe you should lighten up a little and show more respect toward fellow filmmakers who don't feel exactly the same way you do.....

Of course I want to know the answer. Hey, if filmmakers want to make $10,000 horror flicks and get them on the shelf at Blockbuster, OK, but I want to know HOW they get there, if apparently quality is not so important. I thought I read in other postings in this thread how quality was so importan--perhaps that was just meant to pertain to theatrical distributiont.

These zero star rating horror flicks are--statistically (star ratings by blockbuster members)--garbage, even though perhaps a few people like them (who might just be cast members for all we know, plugging the film unabashedly). I am guilty for renting them thinking they were more than they were-- I should have done my homework and looked at the films' ratings prior to renting them, or noticed no thumbs up on them from reviewers, etc.; I was sold at the moment by the cover art, my downfall. I just want to know HOW such low quality flicks end up for rental (cover art?)-- if that is the case then as I said quality is not so important for getting a sale straight to DVD, and that is good news for filmmakers (apparently some here whom I have offended) who want to make no budget films and sell them straight to DVD. But then let's acknowledge that low quality can be distributed-- again, good news if that is all a producer seeks. Don't judge me too harshly until you rent those two titles.

 

[Beeblebrox]

That is a cheap shot

You've been consistently and blatantly TRASHING the hard work of other filmmakers, filmmakers who've thus far accomplished considerably more than you have, and now you're offended by a so-called cheap shot?

Why, at this point, should anyone bother to help you (especially answering such an elitist and condescending question), given how little respect you're willing to show your potentially fellow filmmakers?

 

[clive]

Guys, which of us, hand on heart, can say we've never rented or bought a DVD and wondered "how the hell did this piece of s*&* ever get distribution"

Of course, until Joe makes a movie, he is bound to have no idea just how difficult it is to make any film, even a very, very bad one...

Like I said before... the market isn't over run with outstanding product... it's very hard to get this anywhere near right... and, the it's also almost impossible to make a return on low end products, because the balance between spend and production values have to be watched like a hawk. It's easier to get than balance wrong than it is to get it right.

The reason these products continue to exist is the international market is large enough to support the distributor's investment... if not to provide a return to the film makers.