Conundrum: Upgrade Options from the GH2

Graeme

Graeme

I've been using the GH2 (Hacked) for my filmmaking, and I've finally got some $ for new gear, so I'm looking to upgrade and trying to decide what is the best option :yes:.

Cravat: I own a lot of Nikon Glass and also do Photography (20% of the time these days, 50% when traveling) which I use on the GH2 via a third-party adapter, and the 20mm f1.7 pancake from Lumix (plus 3rd party wide adapter). :huh:

I also have a KC-Lite Jib, a basic slider, tripod, 502AH Fluid Tripod, and assortment of LED lights etc. I'm looking at getting more gear (better slider & dolly) but the center piece - the camera - needs to be considered for form-factor.

GH3 --> Logical Upgrade but unsure if it will be significant quality upgrade over the hack, but 1080@60fps sounds great. Same as what I'm doing now, but perhaps I can splurge the money I'm saving on the body and get some MFT oriented glass (think Nokton F0.95 etc).

D800 --> Finally can fully utilize all my Pro (f1.2/f1.4/f.18/f2.8) Nikon Glass natively :D but concerned that the video quality will actually drop and heard low-light is not the best :( [D600 has video issues, so does the D7100 so they are both out on principal]. I'd get a SmallHD screen to account for the lack of swivel screen on the camera itself, unlikely to use the HDMI port for recording 'raw' as I've seen some videos and the improvement is extensively minor for the extra amount of data and complexity you need to handle.

FS100/700 --> XLR inputs and form factor make it a consideration, also it has some slow-motion options that I like. Downside is that new these are pretty pricey and there are a lot of other cameras in this range (C100/300/500) which could also work...

BMCC --> Raw for $3000! But its a smaller the MFT sensor (talking MTF mount version). Its an option simply because I shoot only cinematic pieces and not events/news so I can get a Cage and all that jazz to make it work, and again some cine MFT lenses.

Scarlet --> Amazingly nice camera, Nikon Mount Option :D, RAW etc, Lots of Slow Mo Speeds to consider, but super-pricey and I'd likely slap a Recorder on the side as I'd use Raw sparely cause the Red-branded memory is so dammed expensive and the added workflow hassle/time. In the end to go this option I'll be looking for the cheapest method (New Body, likely used/third-party everything else)

Things I'd Like:
  • FF or APC-S sized sensor as MFT has been given me issues on the wide shots, new lenses can solve this problem but that adds $$$ and ultimately I'm looking at bigger cameras later.
  • Slow-Mo Options as I enjoy the effect
  • Suitable for Green/Blue Screen Keying
  • Single-Man Operational as I tend to be a one/two man crew on my shots
  • Image Quality & Codex as to be as good as the GH2, I don't want to drop in quality
  • A Dynamic Range boost would be nice, but so far I don't have a lot of complaints with the DR on the GH2 as it has a histogram

Things To Note:
  • Lots of Nikon Full Frame Glass
  • Video and Photography would be a Plus
  • PC using Adobe CS6
  • Self-Funded Hobbyist, so I don't have clients etc, this is for me (and my fellow filmmaking friends who I help out all the time, Ottawa has a great local independent filmmaking community).
  • Budget is $10,000 but I'd ideally like to not spend that all on the camera, I have about $4K-6K of other things I'd like to get as well (sliders, dollys etc).
  • Most of my films are part of contests (see need for deadlines) where I'm producing between 1-15minute short films in 3-60 days, some potential prizes but I haven't won yet (gotten top ten a couple of times).
  • Latest Short Film --> Heaven Cent to give you an idea of the kind of work I do now (someone asked me to make a serious sad movie for a 72 hour film competition... rather than my quirky everyone-dies films).
  • My next project(s) will be a Steam-Punk Series and I'm looking at making a Canadian Spy Movie in the Summer Place Marker Website --> www.MattMartinMovie.com)

Basically I'm looking for advice and input, looking at going to NAB next month as well, but that's mainly for supporting gear, software, and resources than the camera's themselves (I'll be looking but if I walk in not having a short-list I'm going to waste all my time trying to compare every camera on the floor).
 
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Hi Graeme - I upgraded from the GH2 to the GH3, and am very happy with it - but my budget (and my cinematic ambitions) are a little more limited!

With a $10,000 budget and Nikon lenses (I have a few), I would have gotten a used Sony F3 and an inexpensive Nikon to Sony FZ adapter. I would hang on to the GH2 for stills and save up for sliders and support.

Next step down for me would have been a new $8000 FS700 body for the HD slow motion - and a Nikon to Sony NEX adapter, again hanging on to the GH2 for stills.

Below that would be a new $4200 FS100 body plus the $1298 GH3 for stills, leaving plenty of headroom for sliders and support.

Below that would the GH3 for both stills and video. I am really happy with this camera.

Not a big fan of the D800 for video because of its moire issues.

Hope that's helpful,

Bill
 
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For Stills I'm still using my Nikon D90 (as I'm super familiar with how Nikon's work and all the Nikkor glass I have works with it), the GH2 is for Video-Only and Photography when I travel (as its smaller than a DSLR which is very handy when traveling).

FS700 is a very possible option, I don't know about the F3 (I dislike buying used gear over $2000 as there is often no warranty etc and if it breaks the next day your out of luck).
 
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Graeme, no particular advice, but some thoughts...

List what went wrong with the camera system used in your last 5 projects.
Look at that list and note down which if any of those problems could have been fixed with more preproduction? More time on set? More experience with the gear? etc.. The goal here is to identify ANY of the problems with your last projects were REALLY the fault of the camera system and not just your use of the system.

Now,
List what you would like to see IMPROVED (not "un wrong" but improved!) in your camera system in your next 5 projects.

Now, on this list are there improvements that can be achieved with accessories to your existing camera system? For example, maybe adding a set of nice high end cine lens will get you want you want. Maybe not..

For example no amount of tweaking\hacking will get you 1080P at 120fps on the gh2. (at least I dont think so, but those hack freaks wouldn't surprise me!)

Try doing a CBA for each camera. Cost Benefit Analysis.

For each feature of a camera look at the befits to you and your projects. If you in business this is easier, feature A should get me X amount of new business resulting in X amount of added income. However, if your like me the "benefits" are seldom about how much more I can "make" with this feature, rather its about serving some inner desire, it might not be a financial benefit, but it can still be a measured by amount of "happiness" achieved. In this instance, you CAN buy happiness..


I hope this helps your decisions process.


EDIT: Personally, for me, the next big change will be to move away from my "still" lenses. I love my old FD's but times are a changin..
 
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WheatGrinder,

Currently the GH2 (hacked) gives me good 1080p 24FPS footage in well lit areas. I also have the GoPro Hero3 Black for high speed/action cam for outdoor steady cam shots. Both these cameras serve me well but lack some of the newer/better features I want to use in my future productions (and have hampered my lastest ones)

CBA

Slow-Mo: Really want more slow-mo for my action scenes, using programs like twixor etc are okayish except they generally produce a lot of artifacts and take up a lot of time in post. Getting 60fps or better is a must.

Sensor Size/Lens mismatch: Currently my film cameras both have small sensors, however most of my lenses are Nikon Full Frames which end up being ultra telephoto on the GH2. Cost of buying new Pro lenses will add up quickly and a new larger sensor camera avoids this cost as I already have good photo glass. New Lenses for a GH2/GH3/GHX? Option will cost about $1500 a pop, so I'd need to see a Metabones speed adapter for Nikon --> MFT to stay with a small sensor.

Better Low Light: Looking at getting more light, but for no-budget hobbyst films I generally don't have the crew to do it in a timely manner. So the ability to shot in less light is vital so newer cameras have less noise etc.

Useable Features: Things like audio-out, XLR adapters, eronomics (full cage system costs about $2500 and up for a DSLR rig), etc would boost my audio, which although is not bad, is not the greatest. I'm working to improve that by getting sound people but not always available.

----

I'm going to NAB to work out options (such as an external monitor so I don't have to rely on poorly placed camera screens, and features such as false colour and focus peaking). But at the end of the day the camera is the center-piece of the film system I eventually go with so I'm trying to determine which camera system gives me the best bang for buck...

Of course with NAB comes new camera annoucements so the field may change, but I'd like to determine a "front runner" before the event so I can focus my pre-NAB planning on that, as it a big convention and I only have 2.5 days there to figure this all out (Pro Cameras are Rare in Ottawa and renting is expensive if a particular camera is available).
 
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I see only the slow-mo requirement being bettered served by a camera system other than the GH2.
I might accept that in camera sound could be an issue for you as a one man band, but if you have someone holding a boom, then they can work the external sound recorder too!

If your not getting good images from the gh2 in low light your doing it wrong :)

Full frame is a specious debate, by now you know that 35mm movie film frame is the same size as the GH2 sensor. The numbers etched on the side of the lens are just numbers, they aren't magical attributes.
Wide and fast is the problem, getting a FAST 17mm to cover those normal "full frame" wide frames are the expensive part..

Sorry, but it feels like your working real hard to convince your self that you NEED to use the nikon "pro" lenses.. If thats what you want then do it already! :)
 
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wheatgrinder said:
Full frame is a specious debate, by now you know that 35mm movie film frame is the same size as the GH2 sensor.
Click to expand...

Actually, no, it is not the same size.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_4/3

he sensor measures 18 mm × 13.5 mm (22.5 mm diagonal), with an imaging area of 17.3 mm × 13.0 mm (21.6 mm diagonal), comparable to the frame size of 110 film.[3] Its area, ca. 220 mm², is approximately 40% less than the APS-C sensors used in other manufacturers' DSLRs, yet is around 9 times larger than the 1/2.5" sensors typically used in compact digital cameras.
Click to expand...

4-perf s35 has a frame size of 24.89 mm × 18.66 mm. I don't know the exact frame size of 3-perf, but it should still work out slightly larger than m4/3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_35

Even older Academy35 is larger than m4/3.

Great camera, but no point in misinformation.
 
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I'm looking for a step up from the GH2, and yes, good 'Pro' glass does make a Difference and I'm sure 'Cine' would too, but several thousands of dollars for glass is out of the picture right now as I'm focused on getting more capabilities out of my camera.

And as for the snark about "low light doing it wrong" my level of 'good' may be at a slightly higher level as I really dislike how the GH2 handles noise at low light areas (blacks take a green tinge of colour noise - luma noise I can cope but the only correction to colour noise is to de-saturate the image or know inside and out how to colour correct.

Plus the GH2 codex is nice, but not as flexible as I would like (coming from a Photography Background I'm used to 10/12/14-bit bit raw files that are very pushable compared to AVDHD).
 
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One can only hope Bill.

Waiting till after NAB is smart too as camera prices tend to drop to adjust to the new realities of the market place.

Timing just worked out this year, it will be my first time to NAB
 
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sorry for the sloppy data work and snarky remark.

I'm more interested in the emotional aspect of your decision making process then the actual choice you make. Maybe you are paralyzed by trying to use data to justify the emotional choice you already made. Perhaps you are seeking permission to make what your mind tells you is an irrational choice?

My advice?
focus on what you want and what is important to you. Toss the data out the window, its not helping you reach a decision. Your not a noob, your not going to make a stupid mistake expecting a $200 camera to deliver pro results. You intuit what is needed in a camera system. The only issue your having is justifying you choice to your higher brain, dont worry about it, any of the choices you have before you will be an improvement...next year it will all be different ... again..

EDIT: Going to NAB seems exactly the WRONG thing to do when you have money burning a hole in your pocket! But thats just me! lol
 
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No need to apologize. I have a tendency to be annoyingly pedantic and accuracy in that sort of stuff can trigger my OCD. :D

I can relate to the gear paralysis as well. While I'm not much help in this thread, I am interested to see where it goes.
 
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- Emotional Aspect -
I've been wanting a high end camera for a while, with some good bells and whistles that can expand the capabilities of the camera. I also want something that I can get good results on consistently - the GH2 again does well in daylight but indoors sometimes the ISO boost does cause issues.

I also have other issues (which could be solved with accessories) that basically are causing me grief and as I'm often (scratch that always) shooting no-budget films, either my own or a friend's, I tend to be a one-man show (or maybe there is an audio person) so the more I can do the simpler set-up the happier I'll be, even if it costs a bit more.

Emotion with Specs - number 1 pet peeve is when (and this seems like almost always) cameras get announced but by the time I could get it reasonably in my hands there is already a competitor's or replacement camera announcement right around the corner, so its easy to get into that "if i wait a few more months..." again using what I have now to cover the gap.

The RED debacle with the 3K Scarlet also hurt on the emotional side, I really liked the specs of that camera, and when they were talking $3-$6K with fixed Cine lens with slow-mo frame speeds etc; I was ready to buy. But as we all know that didn't happen (reasons need not be discussed) and I was unhappy, one cause it didn't happen and two because when I looked around at the alternatives I was disappointed at the costs/features and really what they did announce was the closest to what I wanted, but at a price 3x higher than what I wanted to pay (as they added a lot of features/abilities I did not need); plus the whole "cropped 1080p" for me was a turn off - again FF glass.

Now the emotion with Money... the GH2 is an EXTREMELY good value for money (with Hack), bar none (even the GH3 as nice as it is isn't as good dollar/value wise IMHO). This is causing me grief as you will see in the next section because upgrading is expensive, and at the end of the day I'm not getting a huge increase in capabilities except in the fringe areas. So I wait, hoping prices come down or a 'perfect' camera is released in my price range.

But nothing can be perfect, and when something is you tend to want more anyways, thus the foible of "Money Can't buy You Happiness"...

- NABShow -
For me it makes good sense, as access to these cameras/gear in Canada are limited (sure I can rent all the gear but I'd have to get at least 1/2 of it shipped from Toronto etc, but cost wise would end up more than going to Vegas for NAB). So its an opportunity to look/touch/quickly-try gear and talk directly to the manufacture to get answers and compare shop as it were; plus if there is any exhibit visitor discounts I could in theory take advantage of those (I'm aware there is no direct selling, but discounts for online sales etc).
 
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