Contemplating Software Change

S

Scorer

I currently use Adobe Premiere and AE. I'm getting fed up with them though. It is annoying for me because I can get much better quality with my edits in AE than Premiere due to the fact that Premiere can't export a color bit higher than 10 or so, yet I can't really fully edit a film in AE due to the fact that it isn't really designed with that in mind. I can use dynamic link, but certain things from premiere won't transfer over, and quite frankly the use of so many programs to edit one film in it's entirety is getting annoying.

Any suggestions for another program that is great and might make my workflow a little easier? I would prefer something that has a lot of availability for extras (such as supporting software like Neat Video, Twixtor, etc.) And hopefully a well designed and logical program, as I will have to learn to use it from the ground up.
 
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Scorer said:
Premiere can't export a color bit higher than 10 or so, yet I can't really fully edit a film in AE due to the fact that it isn't really designed with that in mind..
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You can't fully edit a film in AE.. because of premiere's export limitations. that didn't make any sense to me
 
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Because I generally edit scenes together, and then take it into after effects for color grading and anything else it may need, and then it goes back into Premiere so that it can be exported with audio.
 
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As I said, I think you're out of luck really.

You could try Avid, though I don't think your supporting software will all work in Avid.

On top of that, I haven't heard of a real benefit of having more than a 10bit color space. I'm fairly sure cameras don't records in anything above 10bit and I'm also fairly sure cinemas don't project above the 10 bit color space. I read a bit of theory a while back about the virtues of 8bit, 10bit and 12bit. While I have to admit, it mostly went in one ear and out the other, the conclusion was that the extra jump from 10 to 12bit didn't meet the cost to benefit to warrant using.

Could there be an issue with your workflow that is causing the deterioration?
 
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the DV rebel guide walks through a workflow that has you do your final output from AE.

AE will support multiple audio tracks. But really the solution to your particular issue would be to just render out an audio track from Premiere, import an EDL or the project itself in AE, eliminate/mute any audio that comes in with that, drop in your full audio track you exported from premiere, do your final color grade, and export.

Or better yet, use davinci resolve lite (free), version 10.x includes a bunch of editing tools, and full audio support. Pull your highest quality footage into it initially, and render out proxies to edit with, export an EDL from premiere, import that back into davinci, replacing the proxies with the original footage, color correct, and grade, then export to whatever format you need/want.
 
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da vinci is going to be the go to editor once it is more complete, I suspect the bloom in around 4-5 years, after that Adobe must surely be forced to turn after effects and premiere into a combined programme the days of separation are long gone and more and more demand for combined programmes will come into play.
 
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I don't know if I agree with that prediction. I think there will always be specialized software that is _really_ good at the one thing it does. The problem, really, is that a lot of software tries to do too much.

Editing, for example, there's really no need for all the color correction and compositing tools within an editor. An NLE should really be focused on knocking out quick edits by focusing strictly on high performance on the timeline.

*shrug* Hard to say I guess. I do see things going more toward consolidated do-everything tools. But I don't know that it's the ideal solution.
 
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On the lower-end, we'll see more 'all-in-one' solutions for sure - look at the popularity of FCPX with it's built in colour editor, for example.

At the high end, there will always be a need for software that is the best at what it specifically does. This is why most high end post houses have Avid as NLE, colour in DaVinci, Lustre, Scratch, Baselight.. then online in the same software, or something else.

I personally don't think there's an actual demand for all-in-one software, and realistically they'd be cutting down their profits by consolidating software.

DaVinci is a pretty average NLE, overall - but it's great at what it was designed for.

What's your source format? If DSLR, your footage is already 8-bit anyway, so there's no benefit in going higher.

Also, I believe PP has max input of 16-bit and max output of 10-bit

But, I'd be interested to know what your source format is. ARRIRAW is 16 bit.

Also, you need a monitor of the appropriate bit depth to actually be able to see the difference.

But I wonder what the difference actually is that you're seeing?
 
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jax_rox said:
On the lower-end, we'll see more 'all-in-one' solutions for sure - look at the popularity of FCPX with it's built in colour editor, for example.

At the high end, there will always be a need for software that is the best at what it specifically does. This is why most high end post houses have Avid as NLE, colour in DaVinci, Lustre, Scratch, Baselight.. then online in the same software, or something else.

I personally don't think there's an actual demand for all-in-one software, and realistically they'd be cutting down their profits by consolidating software.

DaVinci is a pretty average NLE, overall - but it's great at what it was designed for.

What's your source format? If DSLR, your footage is already 8-bit anyway, so there's no benefit in going higher.

Also, I believe PP has max input of 16-bit and max output of 10-bit

But, I'd be interested to know what your source format is. ARRIRAW is 16 bit.

Also, you need a monitor of the appropriate bit depth to actually be able to see the difference.

But I wonder what the difference actually is that you're seeing?
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It's DSLR footage, but I have had problems with noise after color grading. The footage is high quality and looks fantastic, but when I color grade it seems to bring out a lot of noise. I had heard that this could be to the fact that I was color grading at 8 bit, and that it was recommended to color grade in AE with the settings at 32.
 
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Grading at the highest bitrate possible with allow you to push colors further, but it's not going to hide noise.. the noise is already in the image data.

Resolve includes some noise removal tools, not sure what all is included for that in the free version though.

Also, the NeatVideo plugin yields pretty incredible results, and is fairly affordable.

Here's a mediocre example comparing total sh*t input with output run through Magic Bullet Denoiser and the same video run through Neat Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wznIlC8hUh0

Of course, the best way to combat noisy footage is to prevent it in the first place.. Use ample lighting, and shoot with a lower ISO. Lower the ISO, the less the noise. Likewise, the more light, the lower the ISO you can use, and the more information there is in the overall image.


32bit float will allow you to push color values beyond 255, where 0 is full off, and 255 is full on.. 32bit lets you push those to many multiples of full on without actually loosing (clipping) the data.

But, if the noise is already present in the image data (trust me, it is even if you can't see it), you're going to see that noise more noticably when you start tweaking contrast, brightness and other color levels.

In other words -- garbage in, garbage out. Get the best quality source you can. Then treat that data with care to prevent degradation for as long as possible throughout the post process.

In an ideal workflow -- from the standpoint of ideal image quality -- your EDIT should be done with proxy footage, the coloring done against the original, highest quality source footage, and you should only render the final output ONCE.
 
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