[Community Project] Sound Design

[AudioPostExpert]

Here are some questions, notes and suggestions on how to interpret and/or modify the script to maximise the effectiveness of sound design to aid the storytelling. Here's the link again to the draft script for reference.

Scene 1 (EXT. WOODLAND AREA, NIGHT): Are we going to be hearing this dialogue from the perspective of it being recorded on the cellphone along with the cell footage? Or, are we going to be hearing it as if we were there, ie., not as part of the cell footage? If it's the latter, it would be useful to have a minute or two of the sound (ambience) of the woodland scene, preferably in stereo as we might be able to use it in the final mix. Mono is better than nothing but it would then act more as a guide. If recording the ambience in stereo then 30 secs of mono "room tone" in addition to the ambiance would be useful.

Scene 2 (EXT. SAN FRANCISCO BEACH, DAY): A. Beach scenes are usually tricky as far as audio is concerned. The sound of waves breaking/lapping is irregularly rhythmical and so makes decent picture and dialogue editing very difficult/impossible and due to it being broadband noise it is difficult/impossible to remove. In all likelihood this scene will need ADR'íng. B. If possible, get a master-shot of the beach, preferably including one or more of the following: a nearby road/traffic, industrial or commercial dock area, boats, planes, jet skis, bus station/stop, fun fair, bar or indeed anything else which makes a noise! C. Again, if possible, a stereo (preferably) or mono recording of the location for guide purposes would be useful.

Scene 3 (INT. ARTIST’S STUDIO (RICHMOND, VA), DAY): Where is this studio? An urban/city center, in the countryside or a suburb? Is there any possibility of a shot of establishing this location? Is there any possibility of establishing the nearby presence of: a construction site, someone mowing their lawn, a train line/station, airport, school playground, etc?

Scene 4 (EXT. NEAR AUSTERLITZ PYRAMID): A. Again, a recording of the location to act as a guide would be most useful. B. If it's a very quiet location, maybe at some point one or more of the actors could briefly/subtly respond to a sound in the distance, maybe while smoking? If it's not so quiet consider a shot which briefly visually establishes what's causing the sound.

Scene 5 (INT. BEDROOM (WELLINGTON), NIGHT): When looking out of the window, is there a way to very briefly establish the presence of one of the following: a train line/station, transport depot, hospital, factory or any other point of aural interest which operates at night?

Scene 6 (EXT. FOREST AREA, DAY): A: Again an aural guide of the location would be useful. B. Where is this wooded area, is there a distant logging operation? Can we visually establish there is some logging related operation going on in the distance or at least the odd truck/vehicle using the road?

Scene 7 (EXT. OREGON SMALLHOLDING, DAY): Any chance of visually establishing the presence of some running farm machinery when Samuel runs across the yard or in one of the rundown buildings?

These are just suggestions, we don't always need to visually establish the reason for a sound but it does dramatically improve audience believability and in some cases is essential. These suggestions are to allow the logical presence of a background ambience with occasional sounds which can push through that ambience.

For those who maybe unaware, we can vary the level of this ambience (and/or those occasional SFX within it) to add tension, increase the pace/tempo/shape of various parts of each scene, add emphasis to the dialogue, change/affect the aural POV (for example, create an aural link between our "real location" and the location as perceived by a particular character) as well of course as creating a believable aural world beyond just the picture frame. Here's a hypothetical example: Maybe we see a brief distant shot of a saw mill (band saw SFX) and hear the last few words of Vern's phone conversation just before we cut to Scene 7. Now we can add the distant/very distant band saw sound once Vern gets out of his truck. The sound of an operating band saw varies as it goes through thicker/denser wood and it also starts and stops, we can use this to make the action more dramatic; maybe the saw sound dips or even stops when Vern spots the liquid and maybe it starts up again when Vern sniffs and recoils. We're talking about a very distant quiet saw sound here, very subtle, hardly noticeable if you're not specifically listening for it. On the other hand, we might make the saw sound so quiet that it can't be discerned at all from the background ambience or we might leave it out altogether. The point is that we have an aural storytelling tool which we can logically employ (if necessary) once we've seen how the dramatic impact of the scene plays out on screen during/after picture editing.

G

 

[NickClapper]

I think APE is spot-on here, about filmmaking in general.

An holistic approach is exactly the way that a filmmaker should approach any project. The conception of should consider how the film looks, how the film sounds, and how these things interplay. The phrase mise en scène is used as a way of describing the visual feel of a movie, and people get wrapped up in that. That phrase, in my opinion, makes a mistake by excluding the aural landscape of a picture – each time we consider a sound, we should consider the visuals (or lack thereof) to accompany it. Each time we consider some visuals, we should consider the sound (or lack thereof) to accompany it. Because they're handled separately and require separate technical expertise, it's too easy to think of them as being discrete parts of the film. But with an holistic approach to the process, we should first define what our film is, and how it does that, in complete, aural and visual terms. A script is written with a complex mixture of mood/tone/intention/style, and in order to properly interpret that on screen, we need to consider the way the sense interact/support/conflict with one another.

 

[David.rhsc]

RE: Beach sound:

We can easily provide as much "room tone" as you guys want/need. I was also concerned that we may need adr if there is too much interference. Fwiw we will have an audio pro on set and should be able to have lavs for the talent. Still a big challenge.

As far as picking the location for audio friendliness, the more populated the area around the beach the more difficult it becomes to shoot on the DL, but not impossible. I can think of several with one or more of the listed audio features.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

We can easily provide as much "room tone" as you guys want/need.

30secs should be fine. The difficulty could be in capturing a "room tone" rather than an ambiance. An ambience for example would include the sounds of individual waves breaking, whereas "room tone" would not, the ambience might also include the sound of other people on the beach whereas the "room tone" wouldn't. For this reason, depending on how close to the sea's edge you are filming, it might be worth recording a minute or so of "room tone" from much further away from the sea edge and/or with a shotgun mic pointing away from the sea. IE, "Room tone" which contains a little of the "roar" of the sea but no individual waves. In other words, unless you're going to be filming quite a long way from the sea's edge, I'm suggesting two "room tone" recordings, one where the actors were filmed and one from much further from the sea's edge. This could be useful during the dialogue editing process and invaluable if we end up having to ADR some or all of the scene.

If your PSM has the equipment and time/inclination, a stereo recording of the sea (waves breaking) would also be extremely useful. Ideally, using a spaced pair, say 12ft or so apart and if possible closer to the waves (say half the distance or so) than the actors are/were from the waves. This recording isn't essential, just useful.

Fwiw we will have an audio pro on set and should be able to have lavs for the talent. Still a big challenge.

That's useful! Lavs + boom + a PSM who knows what they are doing, are all going to add up to a higher possibility of avoiding ADR. Obviously though, the closer you film to the actual sea edge and the bigger the waves, the louder the waves will be and the more problematic the production sound recording. On the other hand, being closer to the waves might be visually more appealing, so the visual and audio pros and cons are something you're going to have to weigh up.

The more populated the area around the beach the more difficult it becomes to shoot on the DL, but not impossible. I can think of several with one or more of the listed audio features.

There are various solutions to visually establishing audio features without having them impact the production sound. A couple of points to consider which you probably know already but are probably worth clarifying for others:

1. We are only talking about visually establishing audio features, these features don't have to be visible throughout the scene, a second or so is all that's needed, although having them visible throughout the scene is certainly not a problem. This opens up various possibilities, for example, a master-shot taken from a slightly different position than the two shot, MCU or whatever.

2. Distance; we only need to be able to make out an audio feature visually, it doesn't need to be very close, centre frame or even fully in focus, we just need the visual hint. This opens up the possibility of an audio feature being visible but so quiet (or even inaudible) due to the distance from our shooting position that it doesn't impact the production sound recording.

G

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Foley

Up till now, I've mainly discussed Sound Design in terms of visually supporting/creating storytelling (audience manipulation) options from background sound/s, more commonly called "atmos" in film speak. In this post I'll present some suggestions/notes to consider regarding Foley.

Background: For those who are not sure, Foley are the intimate sounds made by our characters, most commonly footsteps but also the picking up, putting down, touching, moving or using of objects/tools/implements, clothes rustling and that sort of thing. What separates Foley from other types of SFX is that it's performed and recorded in a studio (Foley Stage) in sync with the running picture. The term "Foley" gets a little confusing at the no/lo budget level when some/much of the "Foley" may actually be sourced from libraries rather than recorded in sync by a Foley Artist. This technically makes it SFX rather than actual Foley but many/most still use the term "Foley" to describe this type of intimate SFX. Foley is essential for a number of reasons, not least of which is that a scene will just sound wrong/unnatural without it! Beyond the necessity of having Foley, just like all other SFX, we have a certain amount of latitude in the precise character and balance (volume relative to the other SFX and dialogue) of the Foley and we can use this latitude to manipulate the audience and aid the storytelling.

It hopefully goes without saying that we don't want to actually hear/record any of these Foley suggestions in the production sound recordings. These suggestions mainly revolve around the idea of creating movement which could produce (even extremely quiet) sound. Just as with the atmos ideas mentioned in the OP, these are just suggestions to get you thinking and there are countless other Foley sounds which might be more appropriate and/or easier to film depending on the precise details of each shot.

Scene 1 (EXT. WOODLAND AREA, NIGHT): Nothing to particularly mention here as our characters are all off screen. Except to mention that when filming/recording Steve's first line, you obviously don't need to record the bag rummaging, just record clean dialogue and leave enough time/space to add this Foley in audio post.

Scene 2 (EXT. SAN FRANCISCO BEACH, DAY): Maybe before or after Mark lies back on the sand we see him (or Louise) playing with the sand, repeatedly grabbing a handful of sand and letting it run through their fingers. This will provide a useful opportunity to emphasise dialogue/pauses in the dialogue and provide audio movement and interest. Remember though that the Foley will tend to make the audience focus more attention on the character making the noise, so the director/unit director will need to consider if/when this added emphasis/focus is beneficial to the story.

Scene 3 (INT. ARTIST’S STUDIO (RICHMOND, VA), DAY): 1. Maybe as (just before/after/during) Sophie says; "It’s looking good.", we see Carl pick up his palette and mix paint (with a brush) and then start to apply it (paint) after he shrugs? Maybe he applies more paint to the brush before he shrugs again? We can now continue the Foley painting sounds (even better if the painting is now out of shot), stopping this Foley at certain points to emphasise the dialogue (such as when Carl says; "I’d rather it was good."). 2. When Carl looks round in irritation, maybe he could actually turn (change position) on his chair or even move the chair itself slightly? We can add some Foley clothes movement (and maybe some chair movement) to provide some aural emphasis to his irritation/undercurrent.

Scene 4 (EXT. NEAR AUSTERLITZ PYRAMID): There's already quite a lot of Foley implied in the script but obviously we don't want to hear any of the cameraman or soundman gear set-up Foley in any of the production dialogue recordings. 1. When Robin shakes his head to compose himself, maybe he could also straightens some clothing?

Scene 5 (INT. BEDROOM (WELLINGTON), NIGHT): 1. When Simon/e awakes suddenly maybe he/she can sit up abruptly or at least twitch/move? This will allow for some sudden bed creak and bed clothes Foley for emphasis. 2. Maybe he/she could gently tap rather than just touch the the computer screen?

Scene 6 (EXT. FOREST AREA, DAY): There's quite a bit of Foley opportunity already in this scene, which is just as well because with so little dialogue the Foley will need to carry the scene! 1. Depending on the weather/climate, maybe Vern could be wearing a nylon type coat/jacket? Normally we'd avoid nylon like the plague because it's so noisy and can make recording clean dialogue almost impossible but again, with so little dialogue, some nylon type clothing justifies heavier/more Foley (if needed). 2. Rather than bending over to examine the black liquid maybe Vern can squat down? If he's wearing some leather walking boots we've got the perfect excuse for some evocative leather creak type Foley. 3. Maybe when he pulls his fingers out of the liquid a drop or two can drip back into the puddle? One or two viscous Foley/SFX drip sounds could paint a far more icky aural picture than the visuals/dialogue could achieve alone.

Scene 7 (EXT. OREGON SMALLHOLDING, DAY): We've already got the justification for some nice squelchy footsteps, maybe an unzipped coat for some flapping Foley would be useful too?

Scene 8 (INT. SMALLHOLDING BEDROOM, DAY): Nothing specific here, there's already some Foley and vocalisation (panting, face mask breathing, etc.) potential. Samuel shifting his weight impatiently, pacing around and any other animated movements throughout the scene would add another dimension to the soundscape. An old creaky wooden floor would be even better for the shifting of weight/pacing, although again, we wouldn't want to capture any of the creaky wooden floor sounds in the dialogue recordings.

Scene 9 (EXT. SAN FRANCISCO BEACH, DAY): There's already quite a bit of movement in this scene but maybe Mark can absent mindedly rub or scratch his leg (for example), shuffle his feet or something while on the phone, maybe the rubbing (or whatever) gets faster as "his face grows more concerned."? This Foley will almost certainly be extremely quiet (almost inaudible) in the mix of dialogue, relatively close traffic noise, plus some of our previous beach ambiance but even at a very low level it will subconsciously increase the tension and emphasise the growing concern.

The two remaining scenes probably don't need more than is already implied in the script but consider additional movement (Foley opportunities), particularly in the Artist's Studio, to help maintain the tension/pace.

G

 

[David.rhsc]

30secs should be fine. The difficulty could be in capturing a "room tone" rather than an ambiance. An ambience for example would include the sounds of individual waves breaking, whereas "room tone" would not, the ambience might also include the sound of other people on the beach whereas the "room tone" wouldn't. For this reason, depending on how close to the sea's edge you are filming, it might be worth recording a minute or so of "room tone" from much further away from the sea edge and/or with a shotgun mic pointing away from the sea. IE, "Room tone" which contains a little of the "roar" of the sea but no individual waves. In other words, unless you're going to be filming quite a long way from the sea's edge, I'm suggesting two "room tone" recordings, one where the actors were filmed and one from much further from the sea's edge. This could be useful during the dialogue editing process and invaluable if we end up having to ADR some or all of the scene.

I think I understand what you mean here. In addition to a traditional "room tone," recordings of other, specific ambient sounds from the beach will aid in the post process, yes?

If your PSM has the equipment and time/inclination, a stereo recording of the sea (waves breaking) would also be extremely useful. Ideally, using a spaced pair, say 12ft or so apart and if possible closer to the waves (say half the distance or so) than the actors are/were from the waves. This recording isn't essential, just useful.

Hmm, she'd very likely have the inclination and gear - it's more a question of our time on the day. I don't foresee too much issue there. Also, I or someone else could go back to the same spot, same time of day, and get the extra stereo recordings. Probably not as ideal as the same day, though if we shot in the morning and did the stereo recordings at the end of the day the tide would be different, and thus a different rhythm/intensity. Not sure which approach is better?

That's useful! Lavs + boom + a PSM who knows what they are doing, are all going to add up to a higher possibility of avoiding ADR. Obviously though, the closer you film to the actual sea edge and the bigger the waves, the louder the waves will be and the more problematic the production sound recording. On the other hand, being closer to the waves might be visually more appealing, so the visual and audio pros and cons are something you're going to have to weigh up.

Touching on some of the points above (point the boom away from the waves, etc). Since the scene takes place in the early AM, I was likely not going to be point the camera at the ocean save for to establish the beach. AM here puts the sun on the land side, and I'd rather backlight with that and bounce than have the sun at the camera's back and pointing at the water. Speaking generally of course, but this has the effect of placing the ocean mostly behind camera and similarly mostly behind the mics.

There are various solutions to visually establishing audio features without having them impact the production sound. A couple of points to consider which you probably know already but are probably worth clarifying for others:

Apologies - what I meant to say was that the more built up around the beach, the harder it is from a "permitting" perspective. Particularly in SF proper. Our more "remote" beaches are easier to use while going unnoticed.

1. We are only talking about visually establishing audio features, these features don't have to be visible throughout the scene, a second or so is all that's needed, although having them visible throughout the scene is certainly not a problem. This opens up various possibilities, for example, a master-shot taken from a slightly different position than the two shot, MCU or whatever.

2. Distance; we only need to be able to make out an audio feature visually, it doesn't need to be very close, centre frame or even fully in focus, we just need the visual hint. This opens up the possibility of an audio feature being visible but so quiet (or even inaudible) due to the distance from our shooting position that it doesn't impact the production sound recording.

G

Gotcha, will keep these things in mind as we scout/block.

Scene 2 (EXT. SAN FRANCISCO BEACH, DAY): Maybe before or after Mark lies back on the sand we see him (or Louise) playing with the sand, repeatedly grabbing a handful of sand and letting it run through their fingers. This will provide a useful opportunity to emphasise dialogue/pauses in the dialogue and provide audio movement and interest. Remember though that the Foley will tend to make the audience focus more attention on the character making the noise, so the director/unit director will need to consider if/when this added emphasis/focus is beneficial to the story.

Love this kind of stuff. Maybe it is because I have done some C-camera operating, but I love picking up nervous gestures, fidgeting, and the like.

Scene 9 (EXT. SAN FRANCISCO BEACH, DAY): There's already quite a bit of movement in this scene but maybe Mark can absent mindedly rub or scratch his leg (for example), shuffle his feet or something while on the phone, maybe the rubbing (or whatever) gets faster as "his face grows more concerned."? This Foley will almost certainly be extremely quiet (almost inaudible) in the mix of dialogue, relatively close traffic noise, plus some of our previous beach ambiance but even at a very low level it will subconsciously increase the tension and emphasise the growing concern.
G

We'll likely work with our actor on this - that way whatever gesture he chooses to portray the growing concern/tension will be more natural than if our director picked one for him. Either way, similar to above, very into this sort of thing.

 

[wheatgrinder]

APE, very good stuff, im trying to internalize, so if I sound like Im echoing you, then im on the right track.

From a practical point of view, we need to clearly define in as much detail as possible what remote units need to capture in both image and sound.

Using the Oregon example of the creaky wood floor is perfect. Getting a shot of a boot stepping on the old wooden floor as an insert could be used to help define the sound space in the viewers\listeners mind. At first thought you might think that a specific CU insert would overkill, but remember,were talking about a range of producers with varying levels of experience. I could easily imagine that a director COULD chose to shoot the entire scene so tight as to never actually show the feet of the actors moving on the floor. By insisting that there be at least one shot that clearly shows the boot stepping on the wooden floor, we can guarantee that the necessary visual queues are available in the edit. If it turns out the director chose to shoot wider, with a good doorway entry or something where we can see a squeaky floor atom (is that the right use of atom?), then we don't NEED to use the insert.

So your suggestions need to become specific shot requirements. I think that its going to be necessary for each remote producer to present a shot list before shooting. That way we can go over it and make sure those visual queues for sound are hit..

 

[AudioPostExpert]

In addition to a traditional "room tone," recordings of other, specific ambient sounds from the beach will aid in the post process, yes?

That's not actually what I meant, although yes, recordings of other specific ambient sounds will very likely help the post process. What I meant was that it might be beneficial to record 2 different "room tones". The reason for this is that the "room tone" of where on the beach you choose to film might, if you're close enough to the sea front, include the sound of individual waves and therefore be unusable as room tone. Recording a second "room tone" track, much further away from the sea edge (to eliminate individual wave sounds from the recording) would likely be extremely useful.

Imagine this scenario; In the production dialogue recordings there is the continuous sound of waves breaking (albeit quietly in the background of the production dialogue). After picture editing we're going to have a problem because any edits within the scene are going to break the rhythm of the waves breaking and will sound weird/wrong. It's unlikely this problem can be solved during dialogue editing, in all likelihood some/all of the scene will need ADR but when editing and sync'ing the ADR a "room tone" which includes breaking wave sounds is going to be almost useless, this is where our 2nd "room tone" (without the breaking wave sounds) will be invaluable. In other words, having both "room tones" available in audio post provides the most options to salvage the production dialogue and/or make any ADR sound more natural/realistic.

I or someone else could go back to the same spot, same time of day, and get the extra stereo recordings. Probably not as ideal as the same day, though if we shot in the morning and did the stereo recordings at the end of the day the tide would be different, and thus a different rhythm/intensity. Not sure which approach is better?

To be honest, it doesn't really matter. You can never get two recordings of waves to match, no matter if you try and record at the same time and tide. Waves have an easily recognisable rhythm, which means unfortunately that breaking that rhythm tends to be very obvious to an audience. At the same time though the rhythm is not regular, which I know sounds like a contradiction ... how is it possible to "break" a recognisable (predictable) rhythm if the rhythm is irregular (unpredictable)? In all honesty I don't really know the answer to this question but I do know that doing audio post for beach scenes with breaking waves or river/lake scenes with lapping water always takes a great deal of time and I'm rarely totally happy with the results! In this scene though as we're not going to be seeing the waves in shot most of the time we don't need to sync the sound of the waves to a visual. Therefore the easiest solution would be to use a continuous recording of waves breaking and as clean dialogue as possible (without wave breaking sounds). Keeping the tracks separate in this way will avoid any issues of trying to match wave rhythms and so it doesn't matter when you record the wave SFX.

...this has the effect of placing the ocean mostly behind camera and similarly mostly behind the mics.

With the ocean behind the mics you're again increasing the likelihood of avoiding ADR. However, shotgun mics still pick up sound from behind and there's still at least a fair chance of having to ADR the scene.

Love this kind of stuff. Maybe it is because I have done some C-camera operating, but I love picking up nervous gestures, fidgeting, and the like. ... We'll likely work with our actor on this - that way whatever gesture he chooses to portray the growing concern/tension will be more natural than if our director picked one for him.

Sounds good. The only thing I'll remind you (and others) of, is that the brain works like a pattern matching machine. If we put Foley in for an otherwise not very noticeable action or gesture, the audience will automatically visually focus in on the source of that sound (the gesture or action). As filmmakers we of course use this fact to our advantage but we also have to be aware that it can work to our disadvantage. In this case for example, we might be wanting the audience to focus on Mark's facial expression (rather than say his leg fidgeting). Just something to consider when framing/composing your shot and when deciding what type of gesture and where on the body it occurs.

G

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Using the Oregon example of the creaky wood floor is perfect. Getting a shot of a boot stepping on the old wooden floor as an insert could be used to help define the sound space in the viewers\listeners mind. At first thought you might think that a specific CU insert would overkill, but remember,were talking about a range of producers with varying levels of experience. I could easily imagine that a director COULD chose to shoot the entire scene so tight as to never actually show the feet of the actors moving on the floor.

Personally in this case I think a CU of boot stepping on old wooden floor would be overkill, or rather, I can't see that it would help the pace and flow of the storytelling. We've seen Samuel run into an old building and we'll presumably see some of the room, both of which would imply an old wooden floor or at least make the sound of a wooden floor plausible. A INT shot which includes at least a little bit of the wooden floor would be ideal (especially if the the EXT and INT shots don't show a wooden construction) but we don't have to specifically see boots stepping on this wooden floor. On the other hand of course, if there's plenty of time and resources to film this insert, then having an extra bit of footage (which can easily be cut) can't hurt.

BTW, an old wooden floor isn't essential but having one (along with the types of movement I suggested) will provide additional storytelling enhancement opportunities/options.

I think that its going to be necessary for each remote producer to present a shot list before shooting. That way we can go over it and make sure those visual queues for sound are hit..

I think this is a very good suggestion!

You certainly seem to be on the "right track" and while planning in this kind of detail is time consuming, it will pay dividends in post and therefore of course in the finished film.

G

 

[David.rhsc]

Gotcha on both the second ambiance/tone and on the wave thing. I'm sure we'll have more to cover as this progresses.

 

[Cracker Funk]

APE, thanks for the thread. To answer you question, the scene in VA will most likely take place in one of two locations -- either a large garage that has been converted to be an artist studio, or a private residence. The garage space would be in an industrial part of the city. But the way the script is written, I think it'd make more sense for the studio to be in a private residence. In that case, the location would be urban, but a small city. The example you made of a lawn-mower would be very appropriate.

As we near shooting, I'll share details of the location, and any advice would be much appreciated!

 

[AudioPostExpert]

As we near shooting, I'll share details of the location, and any advice would be much appreciated!

Do that and I'll be happy to provide some observations/advice. To a large extent though it's just common sense, a little creative thinking/imagination and of course consideration in the first place for providing sound design opportunities. In the case of an urban location then yes, a lawn mower springs to mind but also things like; light construction/DIY, light aircraft, light traffic, birdsong, children playing, etc. And then it's a case of visually supporting the presence (or logic for the presence) of any of those sounds in such a way as to not make it obvious that's what you're doing.

From a purely sound design point of view, the industrial area would be the better choice for a couple of reasons: 1. It would provide a sonic contrast with all the other scenes/locations in the film and 2. An industrial area provides a very wide/rich palette of potential sound design opportunities... Just as with cinematography and the other film crafts though, it's usually a mistake to think "purely from a sound design point of view"! So only go with the industrial area if you think you can make it logical to the story.

G

 

[WalterB]

It doesn't have to be limiting. If the script is wrong on the day, change it. If you want that improv feel, then record near perfect production sound, so none of the syllables/words need to be swapped out. Otherwise you're going to need ADR and you're going to loose all the spontaneity which was presumably the whole point of the improv in the first place.



File naming: Scene number + shot/angle/segment and take number + camera, for example, "Scn002b-Tk3a" or Scene number + shot and type and description, for example: "Scn002b-WildDX-characterName" or "Scn002b-WildFX-RummageInBag-mono" or "Scn002b-WildAMB-ForestNight-stereo" or "Scn002b-WildRT". The idea being that the audio files will automatically arrange themselves when indexed on name and that we know what each audio file contains just by looking at the filename rather than having to audition it. This saves time in audio post when you've got maybe 100+ audio files to deal with and an inordinate amount of time in the case of a feature or long form project which may have thousands of production audio files.

Sound Log: I'm going to suggest a custom sound log. We won't be using TC for example, which is included as standard in sound logs.
Header: Unit Director + contact details (email, skypename). PSM + contact details. Mic/s used. Recorder used.
Columns: Filename. Scene. Take. Circled. Comments. Mic (SB, HB, L, P, ST). "Circled" is a box to check for the best audio take. Comments is for any observations, faults or description of contents. SB, HB, L, P stand for mic types (Shotgun+Boom, Hyper-Cardioid+Boom, Lav, Plant, Stereo).



It was MP3, avoid at all costs the lossy compressed audio formats (MP3, AAC, etc.). The most common lossless format is WAV (.wav or .bwf), so I strongly suggest everyone/every unit uses wav at 24bit 48kHz, as mixing audio formats in picture editorial can cause errors/failure when exporting an AAF/OMF to audio post. Having said this, I think one of the NLEs, maybe a version of Premiere, falls over trying to export OMF with wavs and they need to be converted to aiff format (the other common lossless audio format). As every prosumer/professional recorder that any unit is likely to be using will definitely record in wav format (but may not support aiff) we should keep it all the same and stick to wav.



Depends what you mean by grey area. "Commercial standard" is not a single absolute line but a range, for example commercial theatrical standards are considerably higher than commercial TV documentary standards. I've been working to these standards for 20 years and my livelihood depends on me meeting or exceeding them, so I don't really know how to work any other way! It maybe for one reason or another that there are parts of the film where I can't meet commercial standards, for example; poor quality production sound files and not the budget/equipment/time/skills necessary to record acceptable ADR. If there's no practical option, I'll just have to do the best I can and accept lower than even commercial doco standards but I'd rather cross that bridge if/when it arises!

JFYI, at this point in time I'm working on the hope that Alcove will be available and amenable to the idea of being the Dialogue Editor and maybe with mikemcguill (who showed interest on the first page of this thread) also taking on some of the Foley? Of course I'm open to suggestions if either of them have a specific request and I'd fill in where necessary, in addition to all (or some, depending on requests) of the SFX/sound element design and all of the re-recording/mixing. Depending on the amount of time I have, the amount of help I get and the level of the film festivals we end up aiming for, I might even consider making a 5.1 mix (in addition to a standard stereo mix) but that's a decision which can be postponed until we're nearing the end of picture editorial.

G

Just put it here for the overview.

So you suggest to recod sound at 24bit 48kHz.
In camera recording is usually 16bit 48kHz. (I'm talking non DSLR's)
So I would need an external soundrecorder for the 24bit 48kHz .wav recording.

And record 'simple' sound on camera for syncing purposes only.

(Unless it's physicly impossible I'm used to recording in-camera. I even used to do the wirelessly with a boom. Got a need wireles set that needs to be tested in that config.)

In the Dutch scene we will probably use a boom with a NTG-2 (unless I get a soundperson with better stuff) and a rev-mic for the actually in movie video recording as 2nd track.

The sound of the environment will probably be birds, wind, leaves in the wind and maybe a road in the distance.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

In camera recording is usually 16bit 48kHz. So I would need an external soundrecorder for the 24bit 48kHz .wav recording.

24bit gives you more headroom, although the dynamic range bottle-neck will be your NTG-2 and your camera's pre-amps. It's not a huge problem if you record in 16bit 48kHz, Nick will just have to remember (be reminded) to convert to 24bit when importing into his NLE. Recording outdoors, into a camera with an NTG-2 is a lot to overcome and will almost certainly result in compromised audio quality, so if there's an option to get a soundperson with better equipment, I would definitely recommend it.

The sound of the environment will probably be birds, wind, leaves in the wind and maybe a road in the distance.

If there's any chance of you recording a couple of minutes of that environment (in stereo) that would be useful but don't worry about it if you don't have the time or equipment.

G

 

[cheeseandachallenge]

Given the simplicity of my scene, I'm likely to be recording on my Audio Technica at875r + tascam dr-40 on a mic stand (this is my ultra low budget setup for small productions). Since it'll be indoors and a controlled environment, this shouldn't be too much of an issue yeah?

How much does this frighten you? Ill be running and monitoring sound myself

 

[Alcove Audio]

How much does this frighten you? Ill be running and monitoring sound myself

I don't know about APE or anyone else, but it absolutely terrifies me.

Are you telling me that you can't find one person with rudimentary audio knowledge to swing the boom for you?

 

[cheeseandachallenge]

I don't know about APE or anyone else, but it absolutely terrifies me.

Are you telling me that you can't find one person with rudimentary audio knowledge to swing the boom for you?

Of the people I know personally, I have more knowledge (most of the film people I know dismiss the importance of sound as often is your own complaint, using a recorder on a boom, etc).

That doesn't mean I couldn't hire someone, but as far as I was aware this was a no budget project? Someone correct me if I'm wrong - but my previous attempts at finding sound people who want to work for experience (as opposed to pay) isn't great).

The dialogue shots will be mid-close shots, so getting in close shouldn't be an issue. I realise there are other issues, but as far as controlled/easy to shoot dialogue scenes go, I feel this is about as simple as it gets.

Edit: Actually there was a guy I went to school with who was a hobbyist live mixer for a few local bands. I think he studies law in this city. I highly doubt he knows anything of film, but I could get in touch with him if some of the skills are transferable?

Edit 2: In regards the prior sound design conversation, I just posted this in the cinematography thread.
One of the locations I was considering is quite pretty inside and outside - but it's a quiet street. However, Wellington is the hipster capital of New Zealand, and this street is one of the most hip streets around (even though it's in a quiet neck of the woods). Lots of people longboard (http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/AkHzr2T4piE/maxresdefault.jpg) down the street at weird hours. In the establishing shot I could get some drunk people passing by, and someone longboarding down the street, with the house in the background + the bedroom light turning on as Laura wakes up? The longboarding sound is quite loud, and the drunk people establishes the opportunity for both of those to occur once or twice through the scene. Would this give you something to work with? I figure it's something unique - but maybe it's not what you're after.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Given the simplicity of my scene, I'm likely to be recording on my Audio Technica at875r + tascam dr-40 on a mic stand (this is my ultra low budget setup for small productions). Since it'll be indoors and a controlled environment, this shouldn't be too much of an issue yeah? How much does this frighten you? Ill be running and monitoring sound myself

As Alcove said, it is pretty scary! Although at this stage of course all we have to go on is probabilities: The probability that a static mic will not cause insurmountable issues, such as very obviously off axis dialogue when the actor moves or excessive environmental noise. The probability of these issues is unfortunately quite high!

The dialogue shots will be mid-close shots, so getting in close shouldn't be an issue. I realise there are other issues, but as far as controlled/easy to shoot dialogue scenes go, I feel this is about as simple as it gets.

This obviously improves the probability of usable sound but it's still likely to be touch and go. Also, it's always a trade off; Generally, the better you organise your shoot for good sound quality, the more uninteresting/boring the shot.

Actually there was a guy I went to school with who was a hobbyist live mixer for a few local bands. I think he studies law in this city. I highly doubt he knows anything of film, but I could get in touch with him if some of the skills are transferable?

Relatively few of the skills required for live sound are transferable to film production sound. It's mostly just general audio theory which is transferable rather than the knowledge or skill to use production sound equipment or know what quality of materials are required.

Wellington is the hipster capital of New Zealand, and this street is one of the most hip streets around (even though it's in a quiet neck of the woods). Lots of people longboard down the street at weird hours. In the establishing shot I could get some drunk people passing by, and someone longboarding down the street, with the house in the background + the bedroom light turning on as Laura wakes up? The longboarding sound is quite loud, and the drunk people establishes the opportunity for both of those to occur once or twice through the scene. Would this give you something to work with?

It would give me something to work with, if this were a well budgeted production! For example, Walla (in this case a group of drunk Wellingtonians) is specific to the accent, even though you may not be able to hear individual words. While I could probably cobble together some reasonable walla with American accents, creating convincing walla for this scene would need custom recordings (with a loop group) and as I don't have access to a group of people with a New Zealand (let alone Wellington) accents, I would need to hire an ADR studio in Wellington. Also, I don't even know what a longboard is, let alone what one would sound like on a suburban Wellington street. So again, I would probably have to hire a local professional to record some for me.

Unique sounds (like the suggested walla and longboard) can be an extremely effective filmmaking tool, provided they can be supported visually AND provided there is the budget to record them. At the very lo/no budget level, unique sounds are likely to be a serious problem. Therefore, as a general rule at this budget level: Distinctive sounds are good, unique sounds are bad! Hence my previous suggestions which will allow me to create an ambiance which is distinctive from the other scenes in the film but from easily available audio samples/library effects, rather than requiring expensive to obtain custom recordings.

G

 

[cheeseandachallenge]

As Alcove said, it is pretty scary! Although at this stage of course all we have to go on is probabilities: The probability that a static mic will not cause insurmountable issues, such as very obviously off axis dialogue when the actor moves or excessive environmental noise. The probability of these issues is unfortunately quite high!

This obviously improves the probability of usable sound but it's still likely to be touch and go. Also, it's always a trade off; Generally, the better you organise your shoot for good sound quality, the more uninteresting/boring the shot.

I agree, and you are of course right. The shots are sitting at a desk, so minimal actor movement will be involved, but I do understand the issues involved.

Relatively few of the skills required for live sound are transferable to film production sound. It's mostly just general audio theory which is transferable rather than the knowledge or skill to use production sound equipment or know what quality of materials are required.

Alright. I'll get in contact with him and see what he's doing these days. I'll ask around people I know again as well to see if anyone is actually available (the only person I can think of who is actually interested in pursuing a sound career is notoriously unreliable and ended up just not turning up to a shoot my friend was doing on any of their shoot days).

It would give me something to work with, if this were a well budgeted production! For example, Walla (in this case a group of drunk Wellingtonians) is specific to the accent, even though you may not be able to hear individual words. While I could probably cobble together some reasonable walla with American accents, creating convincing walla for this scene would need custom recordings (with a loop group) and as I don't have access to a group of people with a New Zealand (let alone Wellington) accents, I would need to hire an ADR studio in Wellington. Also, I don't even know what a longboard is, let alone what one would sound like on a suburban Wellington street. So again, I would probably have to hire a local professional to record some for me.

Unique sounds (like the suggested walla and longboard) can be an extremely effective filmmaking tool, provided they can be supported visually AND provided there is the budget to record them. At the very lo/no budget level, unique sounds are likely to be a serious problem. Therefore, as a general rule at this budget level: Distinctive sounds are good, unique sounds are bad! Hence my previous suggestions which will allow me to create an ambiance which is distinctive from the other scenes in the film but from easily available audio samples/library effects, rather than requiring expensive to obtain custom recordings.

G

Alrighty, got it. And so ya know, a longboard is just a long skateboard, aurally close to a skateboard on a similar street - though probably not similar enough for your standards. Oh and, there isn't a Wellington accent. There are really only two New Zealand accents - most of the country shares one, except the very deep south.
But I'll go back to looking for stuff that's more general.

 

[WalterB]

24bit gives you more headroom, although the dynamic range bottle-neck will be your NTG-2 and your camera's pre-amps. It's not a huge problem if you record in 16bit 48kHz, Nick will just have to remember (be reminded) to convert to 24bit when importing into his NLE. Recording outdoors, into a camera with an NTG-2 is a lot to overcome and will almost certainly result in compromised audio quality, so if there's an option to get a soundperson with better equipment, I would definitely recommend it.



If there's any chance of you recording a couple of minutes of that environment (in stereo) that would be useful but don't worry about it if you don't have the time or equipment.

G

I always record environment: whether to use as sound or as filtersettings for noice-reduction

What mic would you recommend?
Just in case I need to rent one.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I always record environment: whether to use as sound or as filtersettings for noice-reduction...

JFYI; for NR (noise reduction) this would not work well. Although it might not seem like it, room tone constantly changes, it changes subtly from moment to moment and there can be *relatively* significant changes when recording room tone before or after shooting as small changes in mic position and changes in cast, crew, set or equipmet positions will all alter the tonality of the room tone, even in fairly well acoustically controlled INT shots, let alone EXT shots! Using subtly (even virtually unnoticeably) different room tone as a template for NR will therefore remove some frequencies which you don't want removing and not remove others which need to be removed. For this reason, as far as NR is concerned, it is far more effective to find a few frames from the actual take you are trying to NR to act as your NR template.

What mic would you recommend? Just in case I need to rent one.

For recording ambiances (rather than for recording room tone), I would normally recommend an MS stereo pair but that can be a bit challenging. The simplest/easiest recommendation is for you to borrow/rent an actual stereo mic (the best you can lay your hands on). Failing that, a pair of mono cardioid condenser mics (same make and model), set up as an XY or spaced pair. If you have to go for a pair of mono mics, let me know and I'll explain how to set up an XY and spaced pair (if you don't already know). You'll obviously also need a mic stand (or pair of mic stands).

Alright. I'll get in contact with him and see what he's doing these days.

Maybe I gave the wrong impression? I was trying to explain that your friend's skills/knowledge of doing the sound for live bands will be of relatively little use, in other words, probably little or no better than someone who's never recorded film production sound before.

G