I am putting in sound FX for my friends movie, which I am recording myself. There is a shot of cars driving down the road, but that was summer and now it's winter. The roads have been wet for two weeks. Is it possible that audiences can tell the difference from a car on the wet road, as oppose to dry, as long as I don't record obvious splashes hopefully?
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Can audiences tell the difference between incorrect car sounds like this?
- Thread starter harmonica44
- Start date
The answer is a kinda yes, kinda no.
As Gebo said, the audience might not know what's wrong, but if it's not what they expected, then they'll often feel like something is wrong. For instance, recording a real gun is unlikely to sound like a gun audiences are used to in films. It might not be enough for them to care about, but if there are too many things that are wrong it can add up and distract an audience from following the story.
That all being said, no single scene/sound effect is going to make or break a movie. Audiences are often tolerant of mistakes when a story is strong so long as it doesn't break their suspension of disbelief.
I'd say try it. Make a judgement call. If you have music soundtrack you may find that you can decrease the volume of the car effect and no one will notice. If you find out later that it's too distracting or way too obvious, then go and rerecord the effect later or find some sfx stock sound footage.
As Gebo said, the audience might not know what's wrong, but if it's not what they expected, then they'll often feel like something is wrong. For instance, recording a real gun is unlikely to sound like a gun audiences are used to in films. It might not be enough for them to care about, but if there are too many things that are wrong it can add up and distract an audience from following the story.
That all being said, no single scene/sound effect is going to make or break a movie. Audiences are often tolerant of mistakes when a story is strong so long as it doesn't break their suspension of disbelief.
I'd say try it. Make a judgement call. If you have music soundtrack you may find that you can decrease the volume of the car effect and no one will notice. If you find out later that it's too distracting or way too obvious, then go and rerecord the effect later or find some sfx stock sound footage.
There is a very obvious high end "whoosh" sound associated with damp/wet road surfaces. As has been previously stated the audience may not say "wet road" to themselves, but they will notice that something is slightly off, so there is the risk that it will pull them out of the illusion.
Okay thanks. I will wait a few days before I record hopefully it will dry out. Stock sounds are recorded with difference equipment in different acoustic areas, so I am hoping to get my own since I can make my own recordings match better. In On Her Majesty's Secret Service, if I remember correct James Bond drives a car on the beach, and the tires screech. Not sure if the audience noticed a problem with that or not.
The only option I have is to wait till the wet roads turn to ice and snow, but will that help any? The music has already been scored for this section of the movie and there is not music in this area, so all their is to hear is sound FX. It's actually the opening shot, so I don't want them pulled out of the illusion right in the opening of course.
The only option I have is to wait till the wet roads turn to ice and snow, but will that help any? The music has already been scored for this section of the movie and there is not music in this area, so all their is to hear is sound FX. It's actually the opening shot, so I don't want them pulled out of the illusion right in the opening of course.
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Typical "we have to make it more exciting" direction. Audiences are far more sophisticated and discerning these days, especially when you can watch films over and over and over. There are those who delight in finding even the smallest of minor flaws in films, as exhibited by the "Goofs" section on IMDB. BTW, under certain conditions tires can screech on the beach; I've chirped tires when starting off, although the high speed screech you mean isn't very credible.
Another thing, though, is that 40 years ago*** cars were quite noisy compared to today; back then you may have gotten by with a damp road surface because engines could clearly be heard, and mufflers were not required in many states. (I can still remember "hot rods" with "cherry bomb" mufflers.) Go back to "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" and you will hear lots of engine noise. These days, in the real world, you hear mostly tires on road surface. Sound designers currently make vehicle sounds for film more exciting by recording the engine and tail pipe very close up and blending those into the mix.
If you want a "trick" for your pass-bys... leave the car in first or second gear; the engine will be revving much harder during the pass-by if that is what you want. There are also several ways to record them; a stereo mic, a static shotgun or hyper, or you can follow with a shotgun or hyper on a pistol grip. You also record the interior at the same time. Practice safe sound; use wind protection!!!
*** EDIT: Better make that 50 years ago; damn I'm getting old!!!
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If there's no music, not much else going on in the scene and the car-by's are the main focus of attention, then in all likelihood the audience will specifically notice the incorrect sound effect. If the car-by's are not the main focus of attention, then as others have said, the audience will just feel something is wrong rather than being aware of the specific sonic error.
Background Info: The level subtlety to which the ear is sensitive is really quite amazing, the tiniest of sonic weaknesses can pull an audience out of the suspension of disbelief. Creating a dramatic sound mix which pushes the story along is an art because it's not just about sourcing and mixing authentic sounding Sound FX. This fact is almost entirely ignored in virtually all indie films and is one of the main reasons why audiences in general find indie films static and boring. The difficulty is that you need a team (or teams) of highly experienced, skilled audio personnel and an even more skilled Supervising Sound Editor and Sound Designer to record, edit and design all these sound FX, and indie films just don't have the budget. Add to this that most indie filmmakers aren't particularly interested in sound and the usual solution seems to be to ignore the whole issue. This is one of the main differences between indie filmmakers and the major studios, who want their audiences to be engrossed in the artificial reality their film is trying to create, and is why they consider it essential to budget $1m+ for the audio post.
G
Background Info: The level subtlety to which the ear is sensitive is really quite amazing, the tiniest of sonic weaknesses can pull an audience out of the suspension of disbelief. Creating a dramatic sound mix which pushes the story along is an art because it's not just about sourcing and mixing authentic sounding Sound FX. This fact is almost entirely ignored in virtually all indie films and is one of the main reasons why audiences in general find indie films static and boring. The difficulty is that you need a team (or teams) of highly experienced, skilled audio personnel and an even more skilled Supervising Sound Editor and Sound Designer to record, edit and design all these sound FX, and indie films just don't have the budget. Add to this that most indie filmmakers aren't particularly interested in sound and the usual solution seems to be to ignore the whole issue. This is one of the main differences between indie filmmakers and the major studios, who want their audiences to be engrossed in the artificial reality their film is trying to create, and is why they consider it essential to budget $1m+ for the audio post.
G
Yep. Well after I am done putting the sounds in, I am sending it off to an audio engineer to be all polished up, along with the rest of the movie. Well my friends are. But I am the one putting the sounds in. Two cars are the main focus of attention, but perhaps I can record some other outdoor noises, that you can hear but not see, cause they are out of frame. Hopefully it will add to atmosphere as well. I thought about construction workers making noise, but there is none of that going on to record right now. I am trying to use my own judgement. My judgement tells me that maybe the car is wet sounding because parts of the road are wet that we cannot see. Not sure if how much harder the audience would think about that.
I get what you mean about indie's not having enough sound. Perhaps that's the reason why at a local film festival, a lot of the movies just seemed quiet or like there was something missing. I already put sounds of a dog barking off in the distance, in the movie. I just thought it would add a layer (shrug). I wanted seagull sounds for another scene but they have all migrated unfortunately.
I get what you mean about indie's not having enough sound. Perhaps that's the reason why at a local film festival, a lot of the movies just seemed quiet or like there was something missing. I already put sounds of a dog barking off in the distance, in the movie. I just thought it would add a layer (shrug). I wanted seagull sounds for another scene but they have all migrated unfortunately.
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You have to be very careful of this. Ambient sounds like birds or crickets are okay because the audience is used to hearing but not seeing these sounds. Your construction sounds, however are human made and, quite often, need a visual point of reference to establish them.
I am a disciple of Randy Thoms rule of sound - the audience can only process two and one half sounds at a time. If you put in too many sounds it becomes a washy wall of sound mush where the audience cannot discern individual sounds.
When I'm doing my sound design I am a fan of the "Wall Of Sound" approach, but I am always cognizant of what I call the "Michelangelo Process." Michelangelo said that the sculpture was already inside the marble; all he had to do was chip away the unneeded bits. So my plethora of sounds will be whittled down to Randy Thoms two and one half sounds during the mix. The focus of the sounds can change on a cut-by-cut basis, or may remain static depending upon the needs of the film. This is one of those situations where experience and judgement play a major role. The Foley of a person walking - footsteps, cloth, keys on the belt, etc - becomes the single sound of a clothed, equipped human being in motion. But when the shot is a close-up it may be more cloth than anything else, on a wide shot it may be the footsteps. All of the individual sounds created for a vehicle - tire, engine, tailpipe, rattles, etc. - may also be considered a single sound. The same applies here; the engine may be more prominent during a close-up, the tires on a mid or long shot. However, during a chase scene the engine sounds may be the most prominent no matter what the shot to add the excitement of the "speed" of the engine sounds. And there are many instances where one of the individual components of the "stacked" sound is considered a whole sound, so others may fall by the wayside. This is why the sound designer/supervising sound editor should be present during the mix.
BTW, the score is considered one sound of the two and one half sounds; an ambience is usually considered a half sound.
Now you are touching on the area of professional level sound design, rather than the usual level of indie sound. The sounds which go into the atmospheres give the scene it's setting. When I was a university lecturer during one of my introductory classes to sound design, I used to play the students a scene of a worried grandmother in a sitting room having a conversation on the phone. I would ask the students what sort of building that sitting room was in and where the building was. After looking at me blankly (as students do!) for a few seconds they would eventually come up with the right answer, an apartment in an inner city tower block. They couldn't explain how they knew this though. This is the power of professional sound design, we'd put in the sound of heavy traffic and other sounds common to a poor inner city area but removed the frequencies and added other processing to correspond to those sounds being very distant and being heard through a closed window. This atmos was then mixed so low with the rest of the sound of the scene that it was almost inaudible. It was still just enough though to sub-consciously provide the location and context of the scene. How does this apply to what you're doing? Creating an atmosphere is not just about throwing some sounds in the background of the mix. You have to ask what you want to achieve and what scene you want to set. Dogs barking implies a poorer neighbourhood, birdsong implies spring or summer and a suburban or country location, etc. etc. This might seem like insignificant details but when it comes to sound design these details have a significant impact precisely because they are perceived sub-consciously.
Certainly the amount and depth of the sound is frequently an issue but there's an even deeper level as well that is almost always entirely missing. Using the example above of the atmos containing dog barks; what sort of dog barks? What breed of dog, how stressed, how aggressive, alarmed, what speed? Details like this can add tension and pace to how the audience perceives the scene even if the audience can barely hear the dog bark. You can build a scene with an number of these almost insignificant details, plus a bit of subtle processing and voila, you've created a sound scape which sets the scene in terms of: Time, location and most importantly, emotional response. This is Sound Design! When used coherently throughout the whole film and even to aid character development, This is the true meaning of the term "Sound Design". Sound design is NOT just the act of cutting in a few seemingly appropriate sound FX. Sound Design and Sound Designer are two of the most incorrectly used terms in fimmaking IMHO!
So in answer to your question, yes, adding depth is essential. You are on the right track but just scratching the very surface of sound design. If you think about it, you can use: Construction sounds, dog barks, seagulls, cicadas, a breeze through the leaves, aeroplane/helicopter noise, police sirens, church bells, distant thunder, prayer calls, sports crowd noise, sheep bahs, other road traffic noise, geese honking, train/tram/metro noises, cows mooing, fog horns, factory noise and so on almost ad infinitum! And, not only are there an almost infinite number of sounds you could use but you also have the choice of a wide variety of types/colours of each of those sounds. The question is, which ones best set the scene, create the energy/pace and elicit the emotional response the film requires? It's this understanding and use of Sound Design which is so lacking in indie films and why they so often feel slow, boring and/or seem to be missing something.
Trying to record everything you need for good sound design is going to be impossible without a team of people and serious amounts of time and money but there is a solution (albeit imperfect) for those with very limited/no budget, cheap or free online sound FX libraries like SoundDogs.
G
Cool thanks for the info! The dog barking in the distance is after a crime has been committed. I wasn't trying imply a poor neighborhood, but rather, a fowl stench of evil in the air. I don't know the exact breed of dog, but it was male and he looked a hound of some sort with a low voice. What you said about almost inaudible noise. A lot of times people will remove unwanted background noises, such as the fridge, or furnace. It's often a rule on here to help sell your film. But if low background noise is essential to creating the atmosphere, then wouldn't leaving in those appliance sounds, help advance the scene?
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If you don't ever see the dog in shot, you can put whatever dog bark you want in there to support the emotional response you are after. If the dog is in shot your options are more limited because a poodle bark sound will turn your required "evil in the air" into a comedy if the dog we see is a Great Dane. If you think about it though there are all kinds of different barks and growls dogs make, so there's still plenty of options even if you're restricted to one breed. Finding/recording what you want might be time consuming though!
I can see how this appears confusing, welcome to sound design!
There are two considerations:1. Distributors/broadcasters want clean dialogue as part of their delivery specs, so they can sell/distribute/syndicate to other territories where they might need to dump the dialogue, to dub the film/program in another language. So it's imperative that if there is say a fridge sound (for example) that it's only in the Sound FX stem and M&E mix and not in the dialogue stem.
2. There are a number of sounds, fridges and air conditioning are good examples, which have to be used with great care because they can easily be mis-perceived by an audience as interference and as a filmmaking error rather than as deliberate sound FX. This touches on another area of sound, sound effects design. It's often necessary to change, enhance or even manufacture the essence of a sound to match audience perception/expectation and to elicit that all important emotional response. Two old and trusted examples of this: 1. Using a synthesiser to generate low frequency tones and rumbles destined for the LFE channel to enhance explosions and 2. Layering recordings of human or animal screams at very low level within in the sound of gale or storm force winds, not so the audience is consciously aware of them but enough to manipulate them into feeling the evil or danger in the wind. There are countless other examples but these are just two golden oldies off the top of my head. Again, this is the very heart of good sound design and sound effects design, manipulating what the audience is feeling/experiencing, to enhance the story telling. And, there's no more powerful a way of doing that than going after their sub-conscious!
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To expand on APE a little bit...
Most appliances are "drone" type sounds; the human ear/brain will very rapidly "edit" this out of your conscious sound-scape. As I mentioned in my previous post the audience needs visual references for most man-made sounds. What reason would you have in a shot/scene/film to focus upon a refrigerator, dishwasher or clothes dryer? Just opening the 'fridge for a beer is not focus. If the focus is on an appliance there is something wrong or important about the appliance in question, and it becomes the sound designers job to turn it into a minor character. This means interesting characteristics, but they are intermittent sounds like buzzes, rattles, clanks, etc. And it is also very probable that the appliance in question is noticed by characters in the film. Otherwise it becomes just another drone of no importance and may be perceived as a sound error.
You have to keep in mind that the reproduction systems - both aural and visual - are extremely imperfect at reproducing reality. These imperfect reproduction systems put unwanted focus upon those sounds. We are used to 360 degree sound; at best films are front/back/left/right. Filmmaking is all about creating the illusion of reality. That means we have to eliminate during production or post those things which are naturally suppressed from our consciousness.
As an exercise you should take your best mic & recorder and record the ambience of your kitchen. You should sit there as quietly and motionlessly as you can while recording. Concentrate very hard on what you are hearing. After fifteen to thirty minutes immediately put on headphones or plug into your (quality) sound playback system and listen again. You will notice that artificial drone sounds - appliances, etc. - become very overly hyped.
So be very careful of appliances/drones as they can very easily be perceived as errors.
Ambiences in film are constructs; it's not unusual to have a dozen or more tracks to create an ambience. They also have "motion" and "destination" without being intrusive. This is incredibly subtle. In a film I did several years ago there were frogs from the nearby lake and lots of crickets during a key scene at the end of the second act which led up to a murder. As the scene progressed I increased the "tempo" and raised the pitch of the frogs and crickets to heighten the tension. After the murder - a single shot - the frogs and crickets thinned out to less than the beginning of the scene and slowed down, the pitch went back to normal as well. I worked long and hard to get it right; too much of any effect would make it noticeable, which, of course, would pull the audience out of the illusion.
Most appliances are "drone" type sounds; the human ear/brain will very rapidly "edit" this out of your conscious sound-scape. As I mentioned in my previous post the audience needs visual references for most man-made sounds. What reason would you have in a shot/scene/film to focus upon a refrigerator, dishwasher or clothes dryer? Just opening the 'fridge for a beer is not focus. If the focus is on an appliance there is something wrong or important about the appliance in question, and it becomes the sound designers job to turn it into a minor character. This means interesting characteristics, but they are intermittent sounds like buzzes, rattles, clanks, etc. And it is also very probable that the appliance in question is noticed by characters in the film. Otherwise it becomes just another drone of no importance and may be perceived as a sound error.
You have to keep in mind that the reproduction systems - both aural and visual - are extremely imperfect at reproducing reality. These imperfect reproduction systems put unwanted focus upon those sounds. We are used to 360 degree sound; at best films are front/back/left/right. Filmmaking is all about creating the illusion of reality. That means we have to eliminate during production or post those things which are naturally suppressed from our consciousness.
As an exercise you should take your best mic & recorder and record the ambience of your kitchen. You should sit there as quietly and motionlessly as you can while recording. Concentrate very hard on what you are hearing. After fifteen to thirty minutes immediately put on headphones or plug into your (quality) sound playback system and listen again. You will notice that artificial drone sounds - appliances, etc. - become very overly hyped.
So be very careful of appliances/drones as they can very easily be perceived as errors.
Ambiences in film are constructs; it's not unusual to have a dozen or more tracks to create an ambience. They also have "motion" and "destination" without being intrusive. This is incredibly subtle. In a film I did several years ago there were frogs from the nearby lake and lots of crickets during a key scene at the end of the second act which led up to a murder. As the scene progressed I increased the "tempo" and raised the pitch of the frogs and crickets to heighten the tension. After the murder - a single shot - the frogs and crickets thinned out to less than the beginning of the scene and slowed down, the pitch went back to normal as well. I worked long and hard to get it right; too much of any effect would make it noticeable, which, of course, would pull the audience out of the illusion.
Okay thanks. I know what you mean by it sounding like an error. I've listened to dialogue that had to be recorded without being allowed to turn the freezer off. I'm thinking difficult sounds, such as cars on dry roads in the winter, I should just download free from online. As well as other difficult sounds that are time consuming to get. But those free downloads sound like they are from a different movie so it's more work to try to get it sound like this one. So I will keep recording with the same equipment they used, under similar acoustics to get that same sound. And only download sounds that I have to I guess. That way it will be less work to make those sounds match. Does this sound like a good idea?
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Making your own is always the best if you have the time (and budget).
Well of course, most of that stuff is very old, or not well recorded. In what way does it sound like it's from another movie?
There are lots of really good libraries out there if you want to spend the money. SoundDogs lets you buy by-the-sound, and you can also download libraries from them. It's always a worthwhile investment.
It's not much help now, but once you've established yourself as a sound guy you can trade sounds with others. If you remember, I mentioned that spend a lot of time in the field capturing interesting things to build my own sound library. When you work on projects for others you only use about 10% to 20% of what you record, so all of the rest ends up ini your personal library. (That reminds me, I need another drive for my sounds.)
This thread may be of some help...
http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=44090
Well of course, most of that stuff is very old, or not well recorded. In what way does it sound like it's from another movie?
There are lots of really good libraries out there if you want to spend the money. SoundDogs lets you buy by-the-sound, and you can also download libraries from them. It's always a worthwhile investment.
It's not much help now, but once you've established yourself as a sound guy you can trade sounds with others. If you remember, I mentioned that spend a lot of time in the field capturing interesting things to build my own sound library. When you work on projects for others you only use about 10% to 20% of what you record, so all of the rest ends up ini your personal library. (That reminds me, I need another drive for my sounds.)
This thread may be of some help...
http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=44090
Okay thank you very much!
It just sounds different as if it was recorded with different equipment or a different mic. Plus for a car for example, having to make it sound as if it were part of the street is challenging, as oppose to doing all of the recording for that scene, on the same street corner, to make it match. Maybe it's not a different mic that's the difference, but that. One website, I cannot remember which had sounds from The Dark Knight, as far as newer movies. I think what I might do is put a loud sound of a truck backing up, with it's alarm going off. Loud enough to drown out the lack of correct car sounds. Does this sound good?
It just sounds different as if it was recorded with different equipment or a different mic. Plus for a car for example, having to make it sound as if it were part of the street is challenging, as oppose to doing all of the recording for that scene, on the same street corner, to make it match. Maybe it's not a different mic that's the difference, but that. One website, I cannot remember which had sounds from The Dark Knight, as far as newer movies. I think what I might do is put a loud sound of a truck backing up, with it's alarm going off. Loud enough to drown out the lack of correct car sounds. Does this sound good?
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Okay thank you very much!
It just sounds different as if it was recorded with different equipment or a different mic. Plus for a car for example, having to make it sound as if it were part of the street is challening, as oppose to doing all of the recording for that scene, on the same street corner, to make it match. Maybe it's not a different mic that's the difference, but that. One website, I cannot remember which had sounds from The Dark Knight, as far as newer movies. I think what I might do is put a loud sound of a truck backing up, with it's alarm going off. Loud enough to drown out the lack of correct car sounds. Does this sound good?
Sorry it posted twice, not sure what happened.
How so do sound guys do it in the professional world though when it comes to very complicated sounds, that are incredibly difficult, if not impossible to make? like say roaring plane engine, as a plane is about to crash, then the sound of the plane crashing. how would you get sounds as complicated as that without even having access to a plane?
It just sounds different as if it was recorded with different equipment or a different mic. Plus for a car for example, having to make it sound as if it were part of the street is challening, as oppose to doing all of the recording for that scene, on the same street corner, to make it match. Maybe it's not a different mic that's the difference, but that. One website, I cannot remember which had sounds from The Dark Knight, as far as newer movies. I think what I might do is put a loud sound of a truck backing up, with it's alarm going off. Loud enough to drown out the lack of correct car sounds. Does this sound good?
Sorry it posted twice, not sure what happened.
How so do sound guys do it in the professional world though when it comes to very complicated sounds, that are incredibly difficult, if not impossible to make? like say roaring plane engine, as a plane is about to crash, then the sound of the plane crashing. how would you get sounds as complicated as that without even having access to a plane?
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Once again, what is the visual reference for the truck? Keep in mind that you will not be doing the mix, so the rerecording mixer may not know what that sound is for.
Doing good sound design takes lots of patience. Wait for the right night - less traffic, etc. - bring your cue sheet (medium speed - 32 seconds, etc.) and even a DVD player if you want to for better visual references. Set up the mic and do a whole bunch of pass-bys at different speeds and in different gears. If you have a second distinctly different vehicle (you mentioned that there were two cars) do the same for that one. Keep a well annotated cue/take sheet (Take 1 - L to R - 1st gear - 40mph, etc.). Remember that you are building your sound library, so do a lot more than you need. Do long, short and medium starts and stops and the same for turns. If you can get permission to use a private road or a parking lot, all the better, and someone to help can be priceless. If you can have a second mic and recorder in the car(s) so much the better!
This is what sound designers do!
"The exercise of patience is the most difficult exercise of all."
Doing good sound design takes lots of patience. Wait for the right night - less traffic, etc. - bring your cue sheet (medium speed - 32 seconds, etc.) and even a DVD player if you want to for better visual references. Set up the mic and do a whole bunch of pass-bys at different speeds and in different gears. If you have a second distinctly different vehicle (you mentioned that there were two cars) do the same for that one. Keep a well annotated cue/take sheet (Take 1 - L to R - 1st gear - 40mph, etc.). Remember that you are building your sound library, so do a lot more than you need. Do long, short and medium starts and stops and the same for turns. If you can get permission to use a private road or a parking lot, all the better, and someone to help can be priceless. If you can have a second mic and recorder in the car(s) so much the better!
This is what sound designers do!
"The exercise of patience is the most difficult exercise of all."
Okay thanks. I don't quite get why I need a second recording of the inside of the car though. If the scene has cars in it, that are in the background, exterior of the car, wouldn't the outside sound more accurate? I'm willing to do both gladly, but need to understand the concept, so I can understand what I'm doing.
If you use it great. Getting it while you're there covers your ass... just in case. Some also do it to increase their sound library so you have more sounds on hand for next time, without having to go out and do time consuming (and sometimes expensive) recording.
It's like you getting more cut aways and cat in the window shots than you're ever going to need. In case something goes wrong or doesn't quite match to how you're expecting and its too hard to go back and reshoot.
It's like you getting more cut aways and cat in the window shots than you're ever going to need. In case something goes wrong or doesn't quite match to how you're expecting and its too hard to go back and reshoot.