Budget Vs. Quality of Help

Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC

Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC

I had an interesting discussion with some studio actors about why Indie films are so bad.

Budget!

Indie films are financed by low income individuals and sometimes get some crowdfunding. The level of help we can expect from Craig's List, Mandy, NYCastings, and Crew web sites will be low with people who do acting and crew work as weekend gigs, or during their free time. They are not professionals.

Studios pay actors millions because they want the best in the business. There is a higher caliber of camera operators, DPs, and production designers in studio productions. Why? They are paid more.

So, as hard as we try and think we can fix things in another production, the low caliber of help will keep us from shooting something like what is on the big screen ot even the small screen.

These actors who flake are lost souls. They don't know what they want in life and are most certainly not professional actors.

So, keep this in mind for future productions. It will help keep things in prospective of what to expect when we film.
 
I really think that most of the problems that you've faced, Mike, come from this constant stream of negativity. If cast and crew feel like the director/producer thinks that everyone around him is unprofessional, then that's hardly a fun and productive place to work.

If you treat people in a friendly, positive and professional way then they will respect you and reflect that. If you treat people with the expectation that they are going to flake, make grandiose claims that you can't back up and generally make people uncomfortable, then yes, you'll find that things don't always work out.

You should also remember that if you Google 'Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC' many of these Indietalk threads where you are publicly criticising and ridiculing cast and crew will come up. Personally, if I was in talks to join a project and I saw that sort of thing, I'd probably try and avoid it. No-one wants to join a team that's being led by someone who is constantly spouting off on the internet about how rubbish everyone else is.
 
Yep, you can't make an indie film unless you drop at least $5k. If you really wanted to make it good, you'd spend at least $10k. Also, finding people who love the process and the end product, and enjoy being part of a collective effort even though they aren't paid loads of money is a waste of time...

Sorry if that sounded dickish, but that's what I see when I read your post. The two most important attributes of a filmmaker (imho) are problem-solving and storytelling. More money doesn't make you a better storyteller, nor does it make your problems disappear - it just replaces them with new ones.
 
Sorry to disagree with you guys, but the studio people are spot on.

How many people here have problems with flakes I read all the time?

Flakes are lost souls. I know enough of them to know that's true.

Getting some of the actors to rehearse was like pulling teeth with small children.

Too many DPs are know it alls who know nothing.
 
maybe you are finding people from the wrong places? I have worked with some fantastic actors, who are according to their union statuses "professional actors" yet they were willing to work for free, took direction perfectly and performed amazingly!
 
I'm going to have to disagree with the idea that you can't have a good cast and crew without shelling out the big bucks.

I know a lot of professionals (myself included) who do the mundane paid work to pay the bills, but will jump at the chance to work on an indie that offers a good story or a unique challenge for little or no money simply because they like the project.

Many members on my crew for Predatory Moon are people who work in the television/video/theatrical business as their "regular job" but are offering their time, skills, and equipment because they love the idea of working on a feature film. True, we are shooting mostly on nights and weekends to accomediate them, but I do not believe that will effect the quality of the project.

In my own experience on micro-budget indies, a lot of the value goes south because of lack of planning and rushing to get a project done in as little time as possible by skipping over little steps like blocking scenes or even just making up a shot list. Or they try to film too much in one day and end up having to "settle" on okay-ish takes (or even drop scenes completely) as they run out of time.

I can't tell you how many times I've been forced to rush FX work because I waited around the set all day while the director was trying to decide how he wanted something shot (no planning ahead). I tell every director I work with that they should schedule several hours for their bloody or complicated FX scenes. In the abovementioned cases, I'm lucky if I get even an hour and the quality of my work certainly suffers because of it.

So I really think it comes down to careful planning and taking your time to find the right people for your cast and crew who are as serious about the art as you are.
 
Here's the thing: It's about who you know, not how much money you have.

I'm friends with quite a few professionals who will help me out for free if I need them, and I will work for free in my downtime for friends if they need me.

Sure, payment is a better way of guaranteeing that a person you're hiring is of a certain quality, but unless you're paying union rates, then the simple act of paying someone doesn't mean they're any better than those who work for free.

I've worked on shorts with $500 budgets where the cast and crew have both been working professionals in the industry, but came together because they liked the script, or for a favour. Hell, I've even borrowed cameras (including REDs) for free because of people I'm friends with, or people who owe favours to me (or who I now owe favours to).

I've worked on a lot of low budget films but never experienced the 'flakes' you speak of, and certainly never heard of an actor who wasn't keen to rehearse with the Director.
 
While having a smaller budget does restrict what you can do (as in limits your options), it doesn't mean you aren't allowed to pick talented people for your cast and crew.

From what I've read from multiple posts that I've seen you write, I suspect that the issues you're having is stemming from your leadership skills and possibly the quality of your stories.

Of course there are professionals who won't lift a finger unless they're paid a lot, there are a lot of professionals that are already set up for life who are really looking for some interesting work to be a part of. Money isn't that much of a motivator for these people. If your project (and you) aren't the right fit for them, they're not going to work for you for free (or for virtually nothing).

Don't take this as a dig, but I suspect the crew you're picking have chosen you as their mark and are trying to get as much money from you as possible. I think you may need to rethink your strategy and change your circle of friends to people who are more in tune with your goals.

Then again, I could have it all wrong. If you're not offering your cast and crew fair terms, that could also be the reason. No one really wants to work for a boss who expects you to work for free when they have the expectation to pocket all the proceeds if the project becomes a success. People don't like being treated fair, that can mean they don't like being taken advantage of.

Creating win/win situations is the key to lasting relationships.
 
Remember the quality triangle?

7b7f0125_triangle.jpg


From an economic standpoint Time is Money.

And that's what so many indie projects fail to do. They do not have anything resembling a real budget (six figures), but fail to expend the extra time and energy, especially in preproduction, to make up for the budgetary shortfalls.
 
Sweetie said:
Then again, I could have it all wrong. If you're not offering your cast and crew fair terms, that could also be the reason. No one really wants to work for a boss who expects you to work for free when they have the expectation to pocket all the proceeds if the project becomes a success. People don't like being treated fair, that can mean they don't like being taken advantage of.

Creating win/win situations is the key to lasting relationships.
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This. I've crewed for horrible Directors who have taken advantage of the entire below-the-line crew (who were mostly only working for expenses) and yet blamed every single thing that went wrong on the crew - one great example would be when he'd spend 3 hours rehearsing on set (after having rented a warehouse to rehearse in for 6 weeks prior to filming), then blame the crew as the reason we weren't completing our days (he of course didn't stop to think that camera was up and lighting was set in <1 hour)


Alcove Audio said:
And that's what so many indie projects fail to do. They do not have anything resembling a real budget (six figures), but fail to expend the extra time and energy, especially in preproduction, to make up for the budgetary shortfalls.
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Also this.

You need to realise your own weaknesses and surround yourself with good crew who can make up for those weaknesses.

I'd also assert that anyone who behaves like this:
Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC said:
Too many DPs are know it alls who know nothing.
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Is not really a DP. There's a difference between being a DP and a camera operator, and many who would even struggle to call themselves an operator cling to this idea that they are somehow a DP even though they've never lit anything in their life (a friend of mine recently gaffed for a short indie and rocked up with a van full of lighting and grip equipment - the 'DP' they'd brought in from interstate took one look and said 'what do we need that for? I've got a 5D, we don't need lights'. True story)
 
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With my own stuff, the crew is getting better. Most of the cast made it to the end and remain loyal.

But, there are some that will be replaced, if there are future productions. We are working on a funding plan and will have a meeting about it in about two weeks with lawyers. We are also looking to get a studio attached in a join venture. The studio is overseas.

There is a learning curve involved in getting surrounded with good people.

My people already know the costume constructors in China got fired for the horrible work they did, especially with the silver demon hunter costumes. There is a place in China we will use for Amazon military uniforms, cyborg uniforms, green and red suits. But, we are looking for a new costume construction company for alien and monster costumes that look authentic.

My second DP was better than the first one. But, there is still criticism about the camera work and some of the actors acting. Going SAG will fix that problem because I can get some of my studio friends into the production with better talent and name recognition.

I keep a list of my flakes and I recommend others do too.

Remember Scotty from Star Trek?

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
 
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Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC said:
Sorry to disagree with you guys, but the studio people are spot on.
How many people here have problems with flakes I read all the time?
Flakes are lost souls. I know enough of them to know that's true.
Getting some of the actors to rehearse was like pulling teeth with small children.
Too many DPs are know it alls who know nothing.
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I haven't done as many project as most of people on this board, but we shot 99% of my first feature (with 2 scenes left to be shot in first week of January). Everyone on my cast and a tiny crew are volunteers. 22 characters (mixes of professional actors and noobs), 12 locations, and we shot for 2 months (mostly weekends, with some occasional weeks and late into night). No flakers.

My biggest advice is to learn how to adapt.
Yes, we had no rehearsal time. But we ran the lines as we were driving to the location. We carpooled with the lead cast so we can run the lines. Sure, the rehearsal space wasn't a nice air conditioned room with free cucumber water, but I wasn't trying to be hollywood over here. We get to the location, actors swapping into their wardrobe, getting make up. While they're doing their thing, my audio guy and me quickly light up the location, run cables, etc.

Before we started the production I told the cast that my crew isn't a standard "hollywood-wanna-be" production. I needed cast that wouldn't mind learning some basics gaffer/grip or any other responsibilities. And everyone loved it. Nobody sat around. Everyone was constantly moving, whether help with lights, help another actor with make up or hair, or help with set decor.
Its all about letting them know upfront how you run your set, what you expect from them, and what they can expect from you.
Oh, and never tell your cast/crew that the wrap is at 7pm but work everyone till 9pm. If you have to shoot until 7 pm - you better let people go at 640pm. Doesn't matter how much someone gets paid. People HATE to stay longer when they planed to leave. And if that happens consistently - you'll run into some biiig problems... Is there anything could be done to shorten the shoot time? Less unnecessary camera set ups, overly complex lighting?

Also, ALWAYS positive attitude. I had so many instances where I wanted to grab my camera by the strap and smash it against the wall. Can't do it. Smile and move onto the next set up. Always be busy and try to stay as much as you can within the vision field of your crew. They will see how busy you are and that will naturally drive them to do things as well.
They're interested in volunteering/work on your project, so there is something that drove them to you. And if they're bailing - thats probably because someone who is in charge f*cked something up. Whether its an attitude of the pack leader or lack of confidence or something else..

Open and friendly communication is the key. As long as the crew know exactly whats going on with no sweetened bullsh*t - I think you'll be good :)

Wow, this turned into some rant lol..
 
No one can plan for Murphy's Law.

You just have to endure it.

I've faced Murphy's Law more than once with equipment that was brand new and didn't work out of the box. And, divas who held back productions.

The best book I ever read about directing was how one has to face Murphy's Law. Sometimes, pot luck will get you through it. Other times, there is no luck.
 
=7

Is not really a DP. There's a difference between being a DP and a camera operator, and many who would even struggle to call themselves an operator cling to this idea that they are somehow a DP even though they've never lit anything in their life (a friend of mine recently gaffed for a short indie and rocked up with a van full of lighting and grip equipment - the 'DP' they'd brought in from interstate took one look and said 'what do we need that for? I've got a 5D, we don't need lights'. True story)
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:lol::lol::lol:
 
gotta agree with everyone else, Modern, sorry.


The good studio folk are often those who've proven themselves through indie films. They then made connections, and yes money helps, but it's not what makes the movie. Remember, for every good studio movie, there are 10 bad ones. For indie films you gotta double or triple that, but the good ones impress you even more. (wow! They filmed that in a week with $100? EVEN BETTER!)


As for rehearsal, some actors hold that it actually hurts a performance in film. And not every movie spends that much time on rehearsals. Not particularly sure if its true or not, because that just sounds ridiculous.
 
No one can plan for Murphy's Law.

You just have to endure it.

I've faced Murphy's Law more than once with equipment that was brand new and didn't work out of the box. And, divas who held back productions.

The best book I ever read about directing was how one has to face Murphy's Law. Sometimes, pot luck will get you through it. Other times, there is no luck.
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I so disagree with this. I've been working in event management for the last 15 years (well not for the last year). Compared to a film set, event management goes disastrous more often than not. The truth of it, it happens to particular organizers over and over again where the better organizers seem to get off without coming under the wrath of Murphy.

I can tell you from first hand experience, even with the most seasoned organizers thing still go wrong. The difference between is really in the preparation. Not only do the best organizers have a plan of what will happen, but plans upon plans and contingencies in case something goes wrong. It can be as simple as person y can handle person x job in case they fall sick or cannot turn up.

I can tell you one thing, the majority of problems happen due to poor choice of staff and/or poor training of the staff. Not only is it important for staff to know their job, it's also important to know what's expected of them for this particular job. So many issues can be cut out from the start by simple choosing the best crew for your style.

A pro tip: You really need someone looking after the staff, especially if you're working on the film. While you may not necessarily need dedicated people to fill the roles of Caterer, 2nd AD or Payroll Officer, those duties they fill are essential to have done or your staff may revolt or even worse, actively sabotage your future endeavors.
 
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