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Better to not use a flat color profile in this case?

S

sandeepthefifth

I've been using DSLRs to create films for a while now and understand why so many people use 'flat' colour profiles such as Cinestyle. My question is, is it better to not use a flat profile in the hypothetical case where you want the final output to look like the Standard Picture Style (on a Canon DSLR)?

The rationale being that if you shoot flat, you then have to push pixels values around to get your film looking like the Standard profile - this introduces artifacts as you're dealing with compressed video.
If you shoot with the Standard Picture Style, these adjustments happen in camera before they're compressed to h264 - therefore significantly less artifacts due to compression. Or is this assumption wrong?
 
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Not wrong at all, many high profile DSLR shooters say that you should set it up in camera, for just that reason.

Shooting flat can give you a bit of an advantage for some things, but it's quickly lost if you have to grade it too much in post.

CraigL
 
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My understanding is that shooting "flat" is mostly to avoid blowouts and crushed blacks.
POTENTIALLY it allows for some more latitude in color grading.
But compression does create some issues to deal with.
 
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Here's my take on it:

Camera sensors aren't made to perform at their peak on profiles like CineStyle or flat dialled in profiles. I shoot my FS100 on standard picture profile, just because it gives me the best results in my opinion.

I'd say shoot standard, especially if you wanna get that look in post anyways!
 
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at the end of the day, all you can do is film and test it yourself and do whatever suits you, there is no wrong or right answer, I also believe that Cinestyle was made together with technicolor and Canon so that it would be native of some sorts, it just gives you different results in filming, I prefer the cinestyle as I can do more with the colour without it looking muted.
 
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The best way to explain this is to say think of standard DSLR output with no coneprofile as the kind of thing where what you film you can play straight on a TV. Thats how consumer cameras work, they bake in a profile so what you get out of the camera you can then play straight on your TV...easy.

However if you want to flexibility in the grade like a lot of filmmakers the cineprfile is better as it distributes the values so there is no clipping. Emphasis on distrabution of data, its not compression. This allows you in post to redistribute the data better (in the blacks and highlights) to get a look you want and not one the camera has determined for you by giving more contrast and less wiggle room.
 
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Test, test, test.

It's difficult to say one way or the other which will work best for you and your workflow.

Indeed, if you're looking to colour grade your footage, then by all means shoot flat and grade it later. If you are a talented colourist, or the person doing your grade is a talented colourist, this can be a good way to go as you are attempting to force a logarithmic colour space and maximise your dynamic range. Many DPs swear by the flat profiles on DSLRs.

However:
Many don't. It can be pointless to shoot flat, especially if the look you're wanting in the end is not all too different from what you otherwise would have gotten had you just shot with the Picture Style you like. Indeed, if you're not going to be grading later, or you're not too confident with grading, this can be a better way to go. DSLR compression is only 8-bit (256 'shades') so you don't have a lot of room to play later. For this reason, I like 'locking it in' in-camera.
 
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The limiting factor is the codec - because we're limited to 8 bit color in camera you give up a good deal of dynamic range in the midrange when you use a flat color profile, which is less than ideal in terms of things like skintones. If you don't have a high-dynamic range scene then you're better off with a profile that favors the midrange. If you can use one of the standard profiles and get a good exposure set up so that the histogram doesn't clip on either end then you're probably better off without the flat profile unless you're specifically going for a look with extra detail in the shadows.
 
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Thank you all for the replies - this has been very helpful! I'll choose when and where to use flat profiles carefully and depending on the situation. And like many have you have said, if I'm aiming for an in-camera look I should get it in-camera.
Thanks again for the advice.
 
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I've done tests and this is what I've come up with. It says on these shooting flat tutorials, to turn down the brightness, contrast, saturation, and sharpness.

I understand the contrast and brightness, since you may want your movie to have a low contrast naturally, or you want more room to play in post. So it seems that it's okay to play with that, and works well.

However saturation and sharpness I do not understand why should be turned down. Their is not a lot of room to play with color, as was stated, and who doesn't want their movie to be sharp looking. It is blurry with the sharpness turned down, and I don't think anyone would want that look, so might as well just shoot sharp in camera.

So it seems to me that only the contrast and brightness should be turned down, but that's just my conclusion so far, and over more shooting, I could change my mind.
 
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harmonica44 said:
I've done tests and this is what I've come up with. It says on these shooting flat tutorials, to turn down the brightness, contrast, saturation, and sharpness.

I understand the contrast and brightness, since you may want your movie to have a low contrast naturally, or you want more room to play in post. So it seems that it's okay to play with that, and works well.

However saturation and sharpness I do not understand why should be turned down. Their is not a lot of room to play with color, as was stated, and who doesn't want their movie to be sharp looking. It is blurry with the sharpness turned down, and I don't think anyone would want that look, so might as well just shoot sharp in camera.

So it seems to me that only the contrast and brightness should be turned down, but that's just my conclusion so far, and over more shooting, I could change my mind.
Click to expand...

you turn down the sharpness to emulate Film Look. Film is very soft and creamy with bloomy highlights. Zero Sharpness would give you something to that effect, you still have to play with it and experiment to truly bring out the Film Look.
 
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harmonica44 said:
I've done tests and this is what I've come up with. It says on these shooting flat tutorials, to turn down the brightness, contrast, saturation, and sharpness.

I understand the contrast and brightness, since you may want your movie to have a low contrast naturally, or you want more room to play in post. So it seems that it's okay to play with that, and works well.

However saturation and sharpness I do not understand why should be turned down. Their is not a lot of room to play with color, as was stated, and who doesn't want their movie to be sharp looking. It is blurry with the sharpness turned down, and I don't think anyone would want that look, so might as well just shoot sharp in camera.

So it seems to me that only the contrast and brightness should be turned down, but that's just my conclusion so far, and over more shooting, I could change my mind.
Click to expand...

You don't turn down the brightness ,who told you that by turning down the brightness you'll have more room in post?
 
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8salacious9 said:
I believe he is confusing brightness with exposure.. for which if you underexpose slightly you have a bit more room to adjust than if you overexposed.
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yea, that's what my film teachers hammered into our heads ALWAYS UNDER EXPOSE, NEVER OVER EXPOSE. you can bring some of those details back if it's under, but if it's over then all of those details are lost and washed out
 
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Color grading has so much more to do then simply changing the over all color of a scene. The OP stated if he wanted a video look, why not use the in camera presets, instead of a flat picture profile. To that I say, using the in camera standard profile might be exactly what you'd need to use.

I've been learning to use DaVinci Resolve, and its such a powerful program. There are many ways to isolate different parts of a scene, and effect change.
 
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harmonica44 said:
who doesn't want their movie to be sharp looking. It is blurry with the sharpness turned down, and I don't think anyone would want that look, so might as well just shoot sharp in camera.
Click to expand...

It varies from camera to camera. The thing is once you've shot it that way you can't change it later - and you have a lot more control over sharpening in post, so it's possible to get better results.

On my 5DmkII even the lowest sharpness setting results in things I don't like - slight haloing and added 'crunchiness' from sharpening false detail due to aliasing. I can sharpen in AE later and get much better results because I can tune the sharpening to exactly what is appropriate for a given shot.

On the mkIII they seem to have improved the sharpening algorithm - setting it at a notch or two above 0 seems to give a sharper looking image overall without haloing effects, and they've improved the aliasing situation quite a bit so that's no longer as much of a problem.

I know people who like to shoot the mkII with some in-camera sharpening though, so it really comes down to personal preferences and what you find objectionable, and what works best for your camera. If you aren't well versed in how sharpening works, and don't know how to tune it in post correctly, it's just as easy to make things look worse in post as it is in camera. So all you can really do is test and choose the look that you prefer.
 
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