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Alternate suggestions on VO?

My feature, "Angels of Death" is a military flick. (Kinda...) I have a pretty solid story, but I'm finding dialogue pretty difficult. I feel like everything these guys say seems very cliche and overdone. So I came up with something that I liked better. Using voice-over to get inside the character's head. Cut the chatter down to a minimum on screen and let their thoughts play in the background.

One of the things all military groups seem to thrive on is the soldier's commitment to each other. I wanted to show that through VO, and to give the film depth in the theme of the unit's togetherness. (Sort of a "band of brothers" type theme) But I want to do something different. Any suggestions on how I could do that with VO?
 
I’m not saying it won’t or can’t work, but I don’t know how well or how long that would play out for in VO.
I can see maybe a few times in the story if you tracked across or moved from soldier to soldier in their down time (Or not) and did different things with them to lessen the dialogue between them, like one guy is always on the radio talking to someone that we don’t hear, another guy is always telling stories or a long multi part story about back home, we hear another guys thoughts as he is writing/reading letters to/from his sweetheart, we hear another guy always praying and then maybe there is a guy that hates the military/authority that we hear sarcastic/pessimistic thoughts from, but that would get old fast too. Are you sure the VO would be any less cliché than the dialogue? If you follow the problem dialogue backward is it stemming from anything, like disinteresting/shallow or samey characters? Not enough conflict? Too little subtext? Anything like that?

-Thanks-
 
I’m not saying it won’t or can’t work, but I don’t know how well or how long that would play out for in VO.
I can see maybe a few times in the story if you tracked across or moved from soldier to soldier in their down time (Or not) and did different things with them to lessen the dialogue between them, like one guy is always on the radio talking to someone that we don’t hear, another guy is always telling stories or a long multi part story about back home, we hear another guys thoughts as he is writing/reading letters to/from his sweetheart, we hear another guy always praying and then maybe there is a guy that hates the military/authority that we hear sarcastic/pessimistic thoughts from, but that would get old fast too. Are you sure the VO would be any less cliché than the dialogue? If you follow the problem dialogue backward is it stemming from anything, like disinteresting/shallow or samey characters? Not enough conflict? Too little subtext? Anything like that?

-Thanks-

Great suggestions! Thanks!

Some of the characters need work, but they are all pretty interesting. And there's an almost inhuman amount of conflict. I think my biggest problem is that I focused on the lead a little too much. I originally wrote this just as the story of the unit's commander, and while the plot still involves him quite a bit, in my research I found out how important teamwork and cooperation is to these guys.

I also think I need some (small) conflict between the characters. I'll have to cook up some ideas...
 
You may want to "flesh out" the characters. Create entire life stories for them for your own purposes. Where are they from? What was the family like? What are things that happened to them before the war - relationships, jobs, etc.? The basis for their relationships with each other - besides having the military experience in common - are going to be based on the answers to those questions. You may want to watch (again if you've seen it already) "Saving Private Ryan". After D-Day the introduction of Upham gives the troops a reason to talk about Captain Miller. The other soldiers they meet along the way supplies fodder for other conversations. The night in the church, the aftermath of the attack on the abandoned radar station and the wait for the German attack before the bridge battle gives more insight into the characters.

You also want to think about using visuals and audio to give insights into the characters. Their physical interactions, tone of voice (even just a snort or a grunt) or a look on a face can give clues to their relationships. Maybe something the characters see or hear trigger memories for a conversation.

Does one of them have a noticeable habit? Do they carry pictures of love ones? Does one of them whistle, or likes an unusual type of music? Is one of them the silent type - or talk way too much? Is one of them very religious? Does one of them swear and curse with every other word? Very stupid? Very educated? A hero? A coward?

I've had the privilege to speak with lots of veterans - WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, the Persian Gulf, Iran and Afghanistan. They very rarely speak about combat, mostly about what happens between. But when they do talk about actual combat they mostly talk about fear and anger; and how it motivated them. It was very different for each one of them.

One thing I have found in common amongst professional soldiers - as opposed to draftees - is a most uncommon sense of duty. The draftees just want to survive, get it over with and go home; but their actions and motivations varied depending upon the war - WWII (fighting for a cause) vs. Viet Nam (why the hell are we here?) for example. Another thing; it was used in a film (I forget which one) but was true in the conversations I had with vets - "You're stuck with the friends you came here with; you don't make any new ones."

Do lots of reading, watch lots of war films, but, more importantly, talk to actual veterans.
 
I like Alcove's advice.

I'd also like to add that personally, I don't generally like V.O. narration one bit. For me, it has the effect of pulling the audience out of the movie. Reminds us that we're watching a movie. Makes suspension of disbelief more difficult.

Filmmaking is a visual medium. Show, don't tell.

Then again, maybe your movie is one of those exceptions to that rule. My favorite movie, after all, uses TONS of VO narration. In that case, I definitely noticed it, and let is slide because the info supplied by this VO would have made the movie 6 hours long, instead of 3, if they hadn't resorted to a good deal of exposition. So, does your story really have good reason to use VO?
 
I dismiss the VO that describes to me a scene much like Cracker, yet--I believe that out of context dialogue from a previous scene that originally earthed unrelated, that now happens to be relative played beside a section further in the movie, is a well-placed coming together within the narrative.

For example, an Activist lands the money-shot on the House of commons doorstep, as a political representative exclaims the new budget scheme that will see the country delve into further repression.

We hear the cause raw, without the added forethought and pre-assumption of the Activist, meaning we make the decision for ourselves, without being tainted by a bias VO.
 
Background Info:

The team is a special operations unit. They are at war for these scenes.

Carlos is the main character, but again, his men aren't supposed to be unimportant. The story is about the team.

Royce and Tanner are the second leads. They're only semi-"fleshed out" but I'm working on that. Royce recently was shot in the arm and re-enters the first scene fresh from the hospital.

SNIPER and SOLDIER are obviously undeveloped. They aren't extremely important but they're part of the team.

This is a very rough draft of two scenes and how I have tried to add in a little more from the other guys. I didn't write it in "screenplay format", I just wrote it. Once I finish it, I'll dress it up a little more.

I had to remove some details because I'm paranoid about things getting out too soon. That's what ALL CAPS means. If you figure out something that gives away, please don't shout it out.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Act II: 4 “COUNTRY 7/22/2003 10:00 AM”]
[Carlos in voice-over:] “The intel was solid. That informant gave up everything. The BAD GUYS, their loyalists, estimated troop strength, everything he knew. We assembled in a hotel three blocks away from the target building. 101st and 7 ground regiments were supporting; they were to form the parameter while Task Force 20 moved in on key objectives.
Members of the BAD GUY party were all militant loyalists to the BAD GUY family. Somebody had to move in first and secure their headquarters as we expected the heaviest resistance there. We all knew who that would be. At least we weren’t alone this time. The rest of GOOD GUYS was going to secure the target building.
This was a major op. Ace of Hearts, Ace of Spades. Two of a kind. The cards were on the table.”

The scene begins with Carlos and his men loading/cleaning their guns and ammunition. They fit themselves with body armor and mentally prepare for the mission as Royce walks into the room.

[All:] “Heeeeyyy!”

[Tanner:] “Good to see ya brother, how’s the arm?”

[Royce:] “Well it sure as hell makes jacking off a bit harder but I’m not complaining. I had Kim Kardashian changing my bandages while I was in.”

[SNIPER:] “Yeah? And It looks like they did a real nice job except that they forgot to fix that big ass hemorrhoid you call a face.”
[He and the men laugh over this. Royce punches him playfully.]

[Royce:] “Damn, it’s good to be back in the shit. I never thought I’d catch myself saying that, but to tell you the truth, I’d rather be here than there any day. It’s like Post-Traumatic is contagious in those shit-holes.”

[Carlos:] “We’re glad you’re back, Royce. Today should change the war. Let them know back at home that progress is being made.”

[Royce:] “Why do you think I’m here? I couldn’t let you guys go out there without me and have all the fun. This Colt bites like a snake. I’m ready to let these assholes feel my pain.”

[SOLDIER:] “Jesus Christ, you still have that thing? Phantom, you have got to be the craziest mother fucker I’ve ever met!”
[SOLDIER slaps Royce on the shoulder as he says this.]

[SNIPER:] “Aren’t we all? We volunteer to jump out of airplanes and get shot at for a living. Besides, he isn’t worried about the BAD GUYS. They can’t shoot for shit. And even if they could, that’s what we got you for doc.”

[Tanner:] “Cap, this is going to be a hard one. I need you to keep out of the line of fire; I gotta save the band-aids in case dumbass over there shoots his dick off, okay?”
[As he says this he nods at Royce, referring to his recent injury.]

[Royce:] “Fuck you.”
[Carlos:] “I’ll do my job, you do yours Tanner. Okay? Just cover the man next to you and we’ll pull through. That goes for everybody. Eyes open. We’re going to be stirring up the shit. I need your best today.”
[Royce:] “Trust me Cap, I’ve been waiting.” [Royce smiles as he pumps his Mossberg 500.]
The men ready their weapons and gear then move out to the street.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sometime later...

Carlos lay prone with Royce on a hillside. He is manning an sniper rifle. They overlook a small roadside outpost. The rest of his unit is waiting in the bushes on the other side of the road. Three trucks full of armed men stop at the outpost.
[Royce over the radio headset:] “GOOD GUYS reporting; large number of tangos approaching the zone. Requesting permission to engage.”
[COMMAND:] “10-4 on that request. Confirm your last GOOD GUY.”
[Royce:] “Confirmed. Multiple hostile with small arms at the RP. Requesting green light to engage.”
[COMMAND:] “Copy that. We’re reviewing intel from the satellite feed. — You are clear to—”
[Carlos immediately starts firing his rifle. His anger is illustrated through graphic and violent kills downrange. He kills several BAD GUYS before the rest of the unit begins to join in firing. As he guns down the BAD GUYS, flashbacks of his family being murdered are shown.]

[Royce:] “GREEN LIGHT GOOD GUYS. ENGAGE ALL HOSTILES!”
[He shouts this over the loud sporadic gunfire from Carlos and his rifle.]

[Action audio fades to 15%.]
[Royce in voice-over:] “That night, the Carlos had a breakdown. No one else knew it but me. I hadn’t seen him like that even once in the six years we served together. He taught us that emotion in combat can kill you; that night however, it was more dangerous for the enemy. I wouldn’t have wanted to be on the receiving end of Cap’s rifle. He didn’t say a goddamn word. I realized then that whoever came after his mother and father choose the wrong family to fuck with.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Thanks!
 
You may want to "flesh out" the characters. Create entire life stories for them for your own purposes. Where are they from? What was the family like? What are things that happened to them before the war - relationships, jobs, etc.? The basis for their relationships with each other - besides having the military experience in common - are going to be based on the answers to those questions. You may want to watch (again if you've seen it already) "Saving Private Ryan". After D-Day the introduction of Upham gives the troops a reason to talk about Captain Miller. The other soldiers they meet along the way supplies fodder for other conversations. The night in the church, the aftermath of the attack on the abandoned radar station and the wait for the German attack before the bridge battle gives more insight into the characters.

You also want to think about using visuals and audio to give insights into the characters. Their physical interactions, tone of voice (even just a snort or a grunt) or a look on a face can give clues to their relationships. Maybe something the characters see or hear trigger memories for a conversation.

Does one of them have a noticeable habit? Do they carry pictures of love ones? Does one of them whistle, or likes an unusual type of music? Is one of them the silent type - or talk way too much? Is one of them very religious? Does one of them swear and curse with every other word? Very stupid? Very educated? A hero? A coward?

I've had the privilege to speak with lots of veterans - WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, the Persian Gulf, Iran and Afghanistan. They very rarely speak about combat, mostly about what happens between. But when they do talk about actual combat they mostly talk about fear and anger; and how it motivated them. It was very different for each one of them.

One thing I have found in common amongst professional soldiers - as opposed to draftees - is a most uncommon sense of duty. The draftees just want to survive, get it over with and go home; but their actions and motivations varied depending upon the war - WWII (fighting for a cause) vs. Viet Nam (why the hell are we here?) for example. Another thing; it was used in a film (I forget which one) but was true in the conversations I had with vets - "You're stuck with the friends you came here with; you don't make any new ones."

Do lots of reading, watch lots of war films, but, more importantly, talk to actual veterans.

I wrote a war movie based on the fact that I simply love war movies. I've always been a big military/weapon enthusiast so I'm pretty knowledgeable for having never served. (Which I might end up doing anyways for funding other projects and to get into my character's shoes. Not sure if they'd take me though... Heart-murmur.) Yes, I've seen Private Ryan, and pretty much all of the modern biggies numerous times. Black Hawk Down would have to be my favorite.

Now I've been trying to get veterans, but like you say, most don't like talking about combat. Or even the war at all. On top of that I'll have to talk to SF veterans, who are even harder to find.

What I do have is very insightful to the way these guys are and the way they think. A book called "The Real Team" by Dick Marcinko. (AKA the badass of badasses. Former SEAL and founder of SIX. He even has a video game now. lol) It is a Godsend for characters and basing them on realistic traits. Through the book, I can tell you that there are NO cowards, NO idiots, and that they are ALL HEROES in SF units. And none of them claim any of those traits which is the most remarkable part. I developed a HUGE amount of respect for soldiers after reading the first chapter.

Also very motivational read if you want to lead anything. I recommend it to anyone who can stomach the profanity. I cuss like a sailor so it's fine for me.
 
I think you could:

Weed out bits of the extraneous dialogue, stuff like “Oh yeah?” and “Aren’t we all?”

Make tighter use of the exposition, like kill off some of the “I can’t believe you still have that thing” and “You’re the craziest Mfer I know!” and “We get shot at for a living” or whatever.

And work in some more distinct voices or roles, like:

Let’s say Tanner is in charge.


TANNER
Glad to have you back Solider, how’s the arm?


ROYCE
Jacking off won’t be any easier, but I’ll live Cap.


Let’s say Sniper is the loud mouth.


SNIPER
‘Ey looks like they did a real nice patch job there O’Mally,
‘cept someone forgot to fix that hemorrhoid you call a face!


Let’s say Carlos is hardcore all core.


ROYCE
Damn, it’s good to be back in the shit!
Fucking post-traumatic is going round like the flu
in that place.
(shakes his head)
Some of our boys got it real bad.

Carlos reassembles a weapon.

CARLOS
Well today.. they gonna know it wasn’t for nothing, today
(slaps two weapon parts together)
They gonna see progress get made.


TANNER
Ok men listen up.


This is a quick example and obviously I haven't read the whole thing, but it looks like a bit shorter,
a bit more distinct and mindful of the exposition carefully and you should be fine.
(Some Subtext would likely go a long away as well.)


-Thanks-
 
I am most definitely not a writer, but a large part of my job is editing dialog. Your dialog sounds forced. Buddy is much closer.

One thing about any profession is that they have their own "tech speak", and on top of that there is also an "inside language" amongst tight groups of people based upon their past experiences together.

For the scene you posted you need to set it up. The audio and visuals set up place and time. Where is the mission brief taking place (nice, clean, hi-tech room or dusty hot tent?). What's going on prior to the brief? Is the squad is sleeping, taking care of gear, horsing around (a lot of which will depend upon the where)? How are they dressed, casually or mission ready? How is their mood? Tense, loose, lethargic, pissed? What can that tell you about the characters, their relationships and their situation?

A captain is supposed to be in command and tolerate no bullshit, and a good captain will rely heavily on his senior NCO (a la Capt. Miller and Sgt. Horvath in SPR). There's one relationship to build upon.

You can open your scene with squad banter, establishing a few personalities and relationships, Royce walks and receives his dose of good-natured harassment (who is or isn't happy to see him, who ignores him, etc.), and then Tanner strides in with his NCO (who is...?) to get down to business. How they greet Royce will provide more info about the relationships. How does Tanner give the brief? Terse, no nonsense or informal? Who asks what questions? Who makes suggestions, or complains?

Define time and place (I still don't know where they are or why they're there), flesh out the characters, then go back and re-write. Then get together a group of folks a read the script aloud AND RECORD IT. Listening back to the recording will tell you a lot about your script.

Oh, BTW, no soldier ever trusts his intel.
 
I am most definitely not a writer, but a large part of my job is editing dialog. Your dialog sounds forced. Buddy is much closer.

One thing about any profession is that they have their own "tech speak", and on top of that there is also an "inside language" amongst tight groups of people based upon their past experiences together.

For the scene you posted you need to set it up. The audio and visuals set up place and time. Where is the mission brief taking place (nice, clean, hi-tech room or dusty hot tent?). What's going on prior to the brief? Is the squad is sleeping, taking care of gear, horsing around (a lot of which will depend upon the where)? How are they dressed, casually or mission ready? How is their mood? Tense, loose, lethargic, pissed? What can that tell you about the characters, their relationships and their situation?

A captain is supposed to be in command and tolerate no bullshit, and a good captain will rely heavily on his senior NCO (a la Capt. Miller and Sgt. Horvath in SPR). There's one relationship to build upon.

You can open your scene with squad banter, establishing a few personalities and relationships, Royce walks and receives his dose of good-natured harassment (who is or isn't happy to see him, who ignores him, etc.), and then Tanner strides in with his NCO (who is...?) to get down to business. How they greet Royce will provide more info about the relationships. How does Tanner give the brief? Terse, no nonsense or informal? Who asks what questions? Who makes suggestions, or complains?

Define time and place (I still don't know where they are or why they're there), flesh out the characters, then go back and re-write. Then get together a group of folks a read the script aloud AND RECORD IT. Listening back to the recording will tell you a lot about your script.

Oh, BTW, no soldier ever trusts his intel.

I don't care that you're not a writer. If the advice is good I'm down to listen, which I am finding to be the case with most of the people on here.

I have the where, and other things such as that, but I intentionally removed those details because I don't want to put too much of my script on the internet. The setting is a real life one, and because of that by putting those details online people can place piece of the plot together. I know it's harder to understand where I'm going with the script without those details, but the level of protectiveness I have for this screenplay borders on paranoia.

Tanner isn't the team leader Carlos is, but Tanner is also an officer. You could think of him as the NCO for the unit as far as how he fits into the equation, but technically speaking, in a SF group rank is much more elevated than in the regular Army. For instance, you normally wouldn't see a Captain on the frontlines getting their hands dirty, but in SF this is normal.

If you're wondering why Tanner orders around his XO, it's because of two reasons.
1. The team works more openly than the standard chain of command. Carlos encourages his men to speak up and that rank means little to him. After several years in the field together, they aren't afraid to speak to Carlos like another one of the guys even if he outranks them.
2. Tanner's the medic.

Sorry for the confusion and secrecy, I probably don't need to be so paranoid, but based on story alone, I truly believe that this script has the potential to make me rich. So I'm protecting my bread and butter here.

Now you're absolutely right about needing to flesh out the characters more, and you asked some pretty good questions that will help me with re-writes. I also agree that the dialogue seems sketchy. It looks too much like a script to me and not real interactions between the characters. I'll get to work on it and maybe re-post when I a little more satisfied with it.

- Thanks Again!
 
Okay, my next question is how much experience do you have with members of the military and actual operations. As I mentioned, I have met and spoken with numerous military types - my brother-in-law served on a boomer as a sonar tech, my best friend was an ordinance tech on a tin can, one of his current employees was a spec-ops type in Iran, and the members of the Del Vikings (I was their musical director for seven years) were all veterans of Korea and 'Nam. While with the Del Vikings we played a large number of PBA and Firemans benefit shows, and for some reason cops and firemen were willing to confide in me. To top it all off military history, especially WWII, is a hobby.

No matter what, chain of command is supremely important. The senior officer will always be in charge of the brief although others may provide the intel and mission parameters; the mission is his responsibility. He may lean heavily on subordinates, and as you correctly pointed out, spec-ops groups teams are generally much higher in rank and can be informal in context, but they still (or at least should) follow protocol.

I would suggest reading several of Tom Clancys non-fiction books as a start, especially "Special Forces" and "Shadow Warriors", and "Spec Ops" by William McRaven. The SOCOM.mil home page a a great place to start additional research.
 
I’m nothing special, but hey thanks. I think you will find mostly everyone here pitches in their many shades of two cents helpful when they can, and none of us seem to stop learning or adding to our own or to each other's arsenal of creative considerations. It’s good.

-Thanks-
 
Okay, my next question is how much experience do you have with members of the military and actual operations. As I mentioned, I have met and spoken with numerous military types - my brother-in-law served on a boomer as a sonar tech, my best friend was an ordinance tech on a tin can, one of his current employees was a spec-ops type in Iran, and the members of the Del Vikings (I was their musical director for seven years) were all veterans of Korea and 'Nam. While with the Del Vikings we played a large number of PBA and Firemans benefit shows, and for some reason cops and firemen were willing to confide in me. To top it all off military history, especially WWII, is a hobby.

No matter what, chain of command is supremely important. The senior officer will always be in charge of the brief although others may provide the intel and mission parameters; the mission is his responsibility. He may lean heavily on subordinates, and as you correctly pointed out, spec-ops groups teams are generally much higher in rank and can be informal in context, but they still (or at least should) follow protocol.

I would suggest reading several of Tom Clancys non-fiction books as a start, especially "Special Forces" and "Shadow Warriors", and "Spec Ops" by William McRaven. The SOCOM.mil home page a a great place to start additional research.

Good question. I'll answer the best and most honestly I can.

I've never been lucky enough to get an interview with any real vets or servicemen. (Yet... I will before I finalize the script.)
BUT, I am much more familiar with military than most civilians. This might sound a little boyish, but again I'll keep it honest. I've always had a fascination with military/war. (I know this is also sort of a negative thing to glorify, but it intrigues me.) I've studied up on tactics, military tech, and structure my entire life, mostly because I enjoy learning about such things. I have used it for storytelling in the past, but never as much as now while I'm writing my feature. I'm the guy who watches FutureWeapons and buys the Xbox games that have the most realistic portrayal of war. (I.E. Call of Duty instead of Halo) It is also hobby for me, but I know enough to build a good story with LOADS of details.

It should also be noted that I'm fascinated with weapons. That started with boyscouts. I'm actually a pretty decent marksman and because of that I'm a fan of sniping. ANY gun in a hollywood flick, I can tell you the name, caliber, mag size, variations, what war it was created in, etc. I'm particularly fond of the .308 round and the M14. Give me the JAE stock and I'm a surgeon with that thing : )

Firearms are just one thing, however. I find CQB a little more interesting than space age war. I have a good understanding of airstrikes, precision guided missiles, tanks, etc., etc., etc... I can talk about this stuff for ages.

With "Angels of Death", I've done my homework as well. I've looked at specific engagements and "added" my characters into the real world as well as studied up on the SF units in general. If I don't know something I'll come up with a filler and then go back and fact check it for accuracy.
I'm HUGE on realism, and especially so with the screenplay. Way I see it, I wouldn't want to watch a movie and say "Oh that's so fake! The Army doesn't do that!" and I doubt any serviceman/woman would either.

As far as chain of command, I agree with you. All the soldiers follow their XO, but I intentionally gave them a more laid back approach for each other based on what I've read from Marcinko. Naturally, because of this the men respect Carlos more. They'll follow his orders because they trust him and he's a good leader, not because he outranks them.

From "The Real Team":
The ten commandments of speck war:
- I am the War Lord and the wrathful God of Combat and I will always lead you from the front, not the rear.
- I will treat you all alike--Just like shit.
- Thou shalt do nothing I will not do first, and thus you will be created Warriors in My deadly image.
- I shall punish thy bodies because the more thou sweatest in training, the less thou bleedest in combad.
- Indeed, if thou hurteth in thy efforts and thou suffer painful dings, then thoug art Doing It Right.
- Thou has not to like it--thou hast just to do it.
- Thou shalt Keep It Simple, Stupid.
- Thou shalt never assume.
- Verily, thou art not paid for thy methods, but for thy results, which meaneth thou shalt kill thine enemy by any means available before he killeth you.
- Thou shalt, in they Warrior's Mind and Soul, always remember My ultimate and final Commandment: There Are No Rules--Thou Shalt Win at All Costs.

Micromanaging leads to Macrofuck-ups. Good people, talented workers, resent that kind of babysitting bullshit. Keep your hands off.


If you've seen Band of Brothers, I'd relate it to Lt. Dyke vs Lt. Spears. Carlos is like Spears as far as how he runs his command.

Also, I have the USMC's MOUT guidebook in its entirety, as well several other official useful resources of military knowledge. I love studying ancient warfare and WWII era, but I'm pretty sure you can tell that I'm more in tune with modern warfare. I just think military technology is the coolest thing in the world. If I had billions of dollars, I'd by a firescout for my RC toy : )

Test me : ) Ask me something that any military enthusiast should know and I'll answer without cheating. (No google, just from my head.) I'm no expert compared to the guys who do it for real, but compared to the general public, psssht!
 
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