A Problem With Echo

[Instag8r]

Hey, gang.
Let me start by giving you a little about my background and telling you about the project that I am working on.

I have been a still photographer since the early eighties. Most of it being spent as an art (read nude here if you wish) photographer. I have recently, especially since the onslaught of DSLRs, become interested in video. I am a newbie to video. I am self taught - still learning and have a long way to go.

For more than a decade I have worked with art (nude) models. The model-photographer relationship (can be) is a strange and sometimes very bizarre thing. People outside the art photography genre don't seem to understand the working relationship between photographer and model at all. This brings me to my project...

I am currently attempting to film a documentary about art models and photographers. It includes several models from around the country, male and female. Several photographer friends. And a few individuals that are both model and photographer.

I am using a Canon 5D MKII, Canon T2i, Zoom H4n and an Azden sgm-1x mic. I have lights and and a camera dolly.

I believe that I am doing okay the image quality and the story. The problem that I am having is with sound. My studio, the place where most of the actual still photography takes place is basically a large concrete box. The echo is terrible.

I originally tried to do the interview portions of the documentary in the studio but I have decided that it is better to do them at other locations because of the horrible echo. I attempted this project several months ago and had scrap a brilliant interview because the echo was too intolerable. I have since installed some sound deadening panels on the ceiling which, have helped with, but not eliminated the echo. This leads me to my questions...

Question #1 - I need to film photographer/model interaction in my studio. Is it acceptable to have echo in the audio during these portions of the video? There will be dialogue between models and photographers. This dialogue will more than likely be small. I will probably have portions of the photographer and or model interviews over the actual footage of the photographer and model working together. However i am not sure that i can do this 100% of the time.

I am sure that once the viewer sees the location they will understand about the echo but I am not sure that it makes it acceptable. I just think that 'echo - no echo - echo - no echo' in the audio could be very distracting. I am very critical of my work and try to get things as near perfect as I can. This is really frustrating to me but I don't know any other way to handle it.

Question #2 - Do all of the interviews in a documentary need to have a similar physical background? Will it be too distracting if the interviews are done at different locations? The length of time that it will take to do this project correctly and the fact that I a will be traveling across the country for some of the footage makes it a near impossibility.

Any and all feedback is appreciated. Remember... I am very new at this so whatever guidance you can give will be very helpful.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Problem one is that you are using a shotgun mic in your concrete box which exacerbates the problem. A hypercardioid mic would mitigate the problem to a degree, but certainly not eliminate it.

Problem two is you haven't tried deadening the walls or floor with at least sound blankets and carpeting.

I would also guess that you are not using a boom op to aim the mic you do use directly at the speaker(s).

Actual sit-down interviews should be conducted with the interviewer and interviewee(s) being boomed and/or wearing lav mics.

 

[Instag8r]

Problem one is that you are using a shotgun mic in your concrete box which exacerbates the problem. A hypercardioid mic would mitigate the problem to a degree, but certainly not eliminate it.

I will try a hypercardioid mic.

Problem two is you haven't tried deadening the walls or floor with at least sound blankets and carpeting.

It is a somewhat large space. 1300ish sq ft and 12 ft ceilings. There is no way I could blanket or carpet the entire space. And if I did it would be horribly ugly to shoot in. Remember that I will be filming photographers photographing models. I am only concerned about the echo for the small amount of footage that I will be showing where a photographer is photographing in the studio.

I would also guess that you are not using a boom op to aim the mic you do use directly at the speaker(s).

When I interviewed in the past I had a boom on a C-stand directly above the interviewee.

Actual sit-down interviews should be conducted with the interviewer and interviewee(s) being boomed and/or wearing lav mics.

I am having the interviewee answer my questions in a way that the viewer understands what the question was. I have already decided that my interviews need to be at a location other than my studio. And, the viewer will never hear me ask the actual question so I do not need to have a mic on myself. This however doesn't really address my concern of the interviews being done at different locations and maintaining an overall continuity to the doc.

Any of this making sense? I realize that I have a problematic situation here. Just wondering what my actual options and what my expectations should realistically be.

 

[WalterB]

The photographer can wear a Lavalier microphone with a transmitter, but I guess that's a bit difficult for a nude model.

If you have curtains in your studio, you can use them to dampen the acoustics.
Any walls, corners, floors you won't shoot can be covered with curtains, thick blankets. It looks terrible but it kills reverb.

(When I was a student I once interviewed my mother in the livingroom: wooded floor, concrete walls and 1 directional microphone. I covered the floor, moved the chairs and covered them to make a screen just outside the frame. It really helped a lot...)

The problem with reverb/echo is that it's hard to kill once it's recorded.
The lavalier mic works with the close-to-the-source-principle: closer to the source, the louder the sound.
Reverb/echo however, is more equaly distributed in a space.
Getting closer to the source means the difference between reverb and source increases. This is why sound gets boomed on set.
But a soundman on set might not be the solution (he/she/boom) might get in the way of the lighting of the photographer.

From an editing/storytelling point of view it's not that disturbing when what is said during a shoot sounds hollower than interviews. Just don't try to edit one voice-over from both sources where every sentence sounds different. A try to minimize the echo: too much makes it harder too hear what is being said.

Good luck!

 

[WalterB]

lol, when I started typing there was no reply yet...

 

[Alcove Audio]

It is a somewhat large space. 1300ish sq ft and 12 ft ceilings. There is no way I could blanket or carpet the entire space. And if I did it would be horribly ugly to shoot in.

You put up as much as you can where it will not be seen like on a narrative film set. "Soft" objects of any kind are a help - couches, etc. On a fashion shoot the clothes racks could be used...

When I interviewed in the past I had a boom on a C-stand directly above the interviewee.

Not the best solution as the interviewee could easily move out of optimum audio pick-up position. A boom-op and/or a lav is your best bet.

This however doesn't really address my concern of the interviews being done at different locations and maintaining an overall continuity to the doc.

I an audio post guy with production sound experience so take this with a grain of salt, but as far as I know as long as your interview with "A" doesn't jump around it doesn't matter - "A" can be interviewed in her living room, "B" can be interviewed in a cafe, "C" can be interviewed in an office, etc. At least that has been what I've seen with the docs I've worked on.

 

[wheatgrinder]

Yeah, clothes racks and other appropriate PROPS will help a lot. Also, shapes that break up reflections, like a full bookshelf can do wonders. You don't have to treat the whole space, focus on the area around where your shooting.. If your booming down from above, try carpets\rugs on the floor etc..

 

[Cracker Funk]

I'm not the guy to answer your audio question, but as far as locations (or "backgrounds") for interviews is concerned, it doesn't matter -- you can have a new location for every interview, should you so please.

 

[NickClapper]

I would say-from a documentary POV-that the location of your interview depends on he type of interview.

If you film yourself arriving at the location and film some more footage at that location, of the models and photographers or whatever, then it would be fine to just use location interviews. If, however, you are going for expert testimonials that you want to cut to at infrequent points during the film (but never show interaction with) then they should be uniform.

That's not to say that you can't shoot them at different locations (in fact that will probably be more convenient for your subjects) but you should certainly put a screen of some sort up behind.

Not sure if this is the question you really want answered. Oh, yer, I'd say use a lav mic. Unless they are naked in which case this is a kind of hilarious problem.

 

[knightly]

A couple of things from my point of view:

1) it's a doc, the echo will be forgiven a bit due to this fact... so if the dialog is intelligible, keep it... or subtitle.

2) I'd prefer a Shotgun for that space, but has to be held by a boom op. The reason is that the op keeps the mic pointed obliquely to the walls/floor/cieling and straight across the speaker's chin into their chest to "Ground" it. You can also buy some egg crate foam and have them stand on it (warmer too) to help ground the sound, then use that C-Stand to hang some heavy blankets on either side of them to stop the reflections. Closer to the subject's mouth will also get the signal to noise ratio down.

3) Test different mics and techniques in that space (shotgun from over and under, lavs, hyper cardioid mics at different distances, etc...) before the subjects are there so you know which works (for the lav, just use a lanyard/necklace to clip to).

 

[Instag8r]

Thanks guys. This helps a bunch. I am going to try all the suggestions and will eventually let you know how it works out and what seems to work best. I already realize that this is gonna take a while to complete though.