sound A lav AND shotgun?

L

Libby

I was reading someplace that suggest using a lav mic AND a shotgun.
Realizing great sound is the objective...isn't that a little too much? What would be the reason for using both?

I can sign out mics at the local network here...and would I need to use both?

I have the intention to shoot indivduals both outside and indoors...just one 'actor' at a time...not a group shot. One outside shot but most inside.

I am also planning on shooting myself because there are not enough people...I will be seated on a couch watching tv and talking on the phone.

I guess I am asking what sort of mic would I use and would the shotgun/lav be useful in any scenerio?

Thanks.
 
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Gonzo_Entertainment said:
The one audio thing I could not fix in the film was the way the tone of the gas stove changes slightly between one shot and another (as the position of the mic relative to it changes). Drove me mad...
Click to expand...

The sound of objects that create a sound changes with perspective in the real world too. Even the best gear in the world - because of how your ears work, the physics of acoustics and how technology works - creates a "hyper-reality" sonically. The job of myself and my audio post peers (and those who attempt it on their own) is to take thousands of disparate pieces of audio to "recreate" reality.

Your brain has an automatic editing function which is a kind of mental noise reduction; your brain "edits out" noises that you don't want or need to hear. Because of the way technology works it actually increases the apparent volume of those sounds. But one thing that never happens in real life is having your perspective change in a microsecond - film editing. Since your brain doesn't have an editing function to deal with sudden changes of perspective they become even more apparent to our ears.

The solution is to keep most of these sounds in a constant perspective in the stereo or surround sound field even though it is not reality accurate. When confronted with situations like Gonzo mentioned another layer can be added to mitigate the effect. So rather than ADRing and doing complete Foley for the scene another layer of gas stove hiss is added underneath, and volume and EQ automation is used to smooth it out.
 
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Good tip Alcove.

My recordist also did my post work (most of it, music tracks mixed by another engineer). He worked very hard, and did a very passable job on it (especially for free), but he is something of a newb to doing post audio for film. I do admit to longing for the day I can afford to send my audio to someone who does it for a living for REAL post production. I feel the same about color correction. My editor did a very passable job, but it's just never going to be the job done by a pro who does it all day every day, with top flight gear, and knows every trick in the book.
 
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It's all about knowledge and experience - and some talent too. You don't need the best tools on the planet to turn out quality work - the lord knows I work with quite a bit less than many of my peers - but you do have to know what you need to do and how to use the tools available to you to accomplish those goals.
 
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Okay. Audio will be a biggie for me. I was fooling around with a shotgun mic today...a atr55. I know it wasn't the best thing but its all I have available right now. But here some questions...

Does a beachtek device make it sound better?
The lav mic is a wired one...it makes a buzzing sound..what could that be from? Am I better off with a wireless one?


Testing the shotgun mic out against the camera mic...I didn't think that mic was all that great. In fact, the camera mic may have sounded a bit better...but for the fact that it picks up everything else in the room. In this case...I plugged the mic into my camera and the cord was only about a foot long so it was limited on far I could place it...because of that, I kept close to the camera...I was just testing it out for about an hour and half. This mic seems to sound okay when it is practically in my face. That will be a bit hard to do in a scene where I am filming myself and do not have the ability to move the mic as I move.

So could it be this mic is just not good (I know its not a mic that pros use) or is there something else I should be doing.

Thanks.
 
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Better than? Here's the thing. Audio is a very involved skillset. Everyone has to start somewhere, and it's great that you're asking questions and seeking information. What the beachtek will do for you is lower your noise floor. That's about it. It may help you hear everything the mic is capable of, but it won't magically make an inexpensive microphone sound like a thousand dollar one.[/COLOR]

The buzz is likely coming from a broken ground or shield wire. THis can be fixed. Whether you're better off with a wireless depends on the quality of the mic and the quality of the wireless. Most audio folks will tell you that a wireless will never sound as good as a wired mic. The high end stuff gets awfully close but there is more to worry about regarding frequency usage, distance, and batteries. I have just recently begun using the sennheiser G3 system with a tram TR-50 lav. So far I am very pleased with this combination. You can also purchase the tram TR-50 as a wired lav with power supply. While the me-2 mic which came with the sennheiser was o.k., it doesn't compare to the tram in openness and natural sound.[/COLOR]

No matter which mic you use, the mic has got to be placed near the talent. Anything more than 24" is not going to produce a satisfactory result. This means a boom pole (there are DIY solutions), a shock mount (absolutely necessary), and wind protection, and of course, cable to reach from the mic to the camera.

While you can find ways of managing costs by buying quality used pieces (that's how I picked up my tram), even the most basic sound kit usually ends up costing far more than the camera rig on set (at least that's the way it's been on the indie work I've been on). It's just the nature of the beast.

Bottom line: Are you really interested in being a location sound guy? If not, you will ALWAYS be better off hiring a up and coming sound guy who will work for fairly low rates just to help pay for his rig. If you are really interested in being a location sound guy, then expect to spend several thousand dollars on just the basics.

I recently returned from a location shoot on the Florida coast. This was a boat shoot with the coastal breezes blowing about 15-20 mph. I knew this going in, and knew my softie would not be enough. The solution, I dropped $650 on the rycote blimp, windjammer, and lyre suspension system. The result, dialog was captured cleanly with absolutely no noticable wind noise in the sound track and the dialog still sounded crystal clear. Now I am equipped to record dialog in the wind without worrying whether I'll be able to get it or not. The point is, if audio is truly a "biggie" for you, than there are significant investments which will have to be made, or hire someone who is only about sound.[/COLOR]

Libby said:
Okay. Audio will be a biggie for me. I was fooling around with a shotgun mic today...a atr55. I know it wasn't the best thing but its all I have available right now. But here some questions...

Does a beachtek device make it sound better?


The lav mic is a wired one...it makes a buzzing sound..what could that be from? Am I better off with a wireless one?



Testing the shotgun mic out against the camera mic...I didn't think that mic was all that great. In fact, the camera mic may have sounded a bit better...but for the fact that it picks up everything else in the room. In this case...I plugged the mic into my camera and the cord was only about a foot long so it was limited on far I could place it...because of that, I kept close to the camera...I was just testing it out for about an hour and half. This mic seems to sound okay when it is practically in my face. That will be a bit hard to do in a scene where I am filming myself and do not have the ability to move the mic as I move.

So could it be this mic is just not good (I know its not a mic that pros use) or is there something else I should be doing.


Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
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I intend on doing this myself...if for any reason its to learn it and 'get it'.

I would love to invest a boat load into great sound..moreso than any camera. I do what I can with the camera I have and right now I am not feeling limited.

Bad sound however irks me.

If I cannot have the shotgun mic within 24inches (because the shot is a wide angle) would I then have to add dialog later?


Broken ground or sheild wire? What do I do to check it?

Meanwhile I am trying to think of creative ways to hide a shotgun mic on any filming I do of myself. Its just lucky for me and my terrible acting skills that I am basically doing a Halloween 80's style camp short (the goal here is 10-12minuets) ... good acting isn't required...I just at the very least want it to sound well.
It is basically a trial for me. The only way I can learn is by doing...
 
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Find a hidden spot in the shot for your mic.

Put a bowl of popcorn on the living room table and put the mic in there.

Put it in a potted plant.

Put it in something and make sure it sounds good.

Otherwise do ADR.
 
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Pretty funny. So I think I like the potted plant idea. It can be situated on the table so it covers the mic which will be beside it. As I change camera angles, the potted plant can also change and thus the position of the mic.
Sure someone might say 'gee that potted plant keeps moving around' but honestly it would only be moved a little bit.

Thanks. I have to play around again tomarrow evening.
 
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Well, that's what some people do in the movie business. You don't need to necessarily change the position of the plant...

They hide mics behind the sun visors in cars.

They hide them in places you wouldn't beleive:

I've seen mics under car seats, behind pillows, even directly in front of people when their back is turned to the camera.
 
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Okay. I will have to be more creative. I wasn't thinking outside the box. I kept thinking the mic has to be on some stand...bla bla bla. How silly? I am seated on the couch in my scenes. I want the camera to be position on my right in one scene and directly in front of me in another.
I could place the mic beside the plant on the table or up on the couch beside me if I can manage that.
I have to play around with it tomarrow.
Thanks
 
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You're welcome.

Or use an establishment shot from far away where you're just on the couch dialing, and then use a zoomed-in shot so you can get the mic tighter when you're actually talking.
 
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What does this mean when describing an adapter (such as Juicelink),,,,

4 microphone channels (2 xlr and 2 unbalanced)

I was looking them up out of curiosity...I tried googling that term but I still couldn't understand what it means.

Merci.
Gracias.
Arigato.
 
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I do documentary work. I have to xlr inputs on my camera. I used a lav and shotgun combo and mixed on camera multiple times. They pick up different ranges of the same sound and I can mix the vocal and ambient sound to where I want it. It also gives options for recording interviews with multiple people. In one interview I plant a lav on the table on front of four guys, and had a shotgun out of the shot above the group. The different mics also pick up a different range of tonal range as well. I shotgun can help add fullness while the lav can boost the overall vocal signal.

I know you are working on fiction film, but maybe this can help out anyone who does non-ficiton film or tv as well.
 
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I have a question and this is the most appropriate thread I could find:

I see that there are clip on mics available for $30-100. I also see that to buy a lav mic and radio pac would cost me more money than I have in Gringotts. So my questions is this-

If I want to do sit down interviews for a documentary, which don't feature a back and forth, could I use one of these clip on mics and just have the sound recorder behind the chair or something rather than shelling out the extra Galleons for the radio thingy majiggy?
 
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You are correct. Certainly, you want to consider the quality of the lav. Tram TR-50, Sanken COS-11, and Countyman B6 will run around $300-400 each. Cabling these to camera for sit-down interviews is very appropriate. The next step up would be to have a mixer between the mics and camera to improve signal-to-noise ratios and clarity by letting the mixer's preamps do most of the work. Quality mixer preamps are much, much quieter and better sounding than the preamps found in cameras.

NickClapper said:
I have a question and this is the most appropriate thread I could find:

I see that there are clip on mics available for $30-100. I also see that to buy a lav mic and radio pac would cost me more money than I have in Gringotts. So my questions is this-

If I want to do sit down interviews for a documentary, which don't feature a back and forth, could I use one of these clip on mics and just have the sound recorder behind the chair or something rather than shelling out the extra Galleons for the radio thingy majiggy?
Click to expand...
 
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You can get very durable, very nice sounding lavs for $130 - $180. They are relatively large - think in terms of what news anchors wear, it will be visible. Lavs start getting pricey when you want durability, sound quality and very small size like the CountryMan B-6. And yes, you can get (much) cheaper lavs; but remember - you get what you pay for.

Keep in mind that these are prices for hard-wired lavs, meaning that the cord attached to the lav will be connected directly to the device recording the audio. Also be aware that you will need to supply phantom power for most lavs, and probably need an adapter. Things start getting really expensive when you want to go wireless.
 
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