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A lav AND shotgun?

L

Libby

I was reading someplace that suggest using a lav mic AND a shotgun.
Realizing great sound is the objective...isn't that a little too much? What would be the reason for using both?

I can sign out mics at the local network here...and would I need to use both?

I have the intention to shoot indivduals both outside and indoors...just one 'actor' at a time...not a group shot. One outside shot but most inside.

I am also planning on shooting myself because there are not enough people...I will be seated on a couch watching tv and talking on the phone.

I guess I am asking what sort of mic would I use and would the shotgun/lav be useful in any scenerio?

Thanks.
 
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I am also planning on shooting myself...
Click to expand...

Don't do it! Suicide is not the way out!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. On to the topic at hand...

It's all about choices and "safety".

The guys who record big budget productions often record multiple tracks on location using a laptop (usually with a multitrack firewire interface) and/or a multitrack field recorder like the Zaxcom Deva (the largest of which can record 16 tracks) or the Sound Devices 788 (eight tracks). The signal is split between both recording systems at the multi-channel mixer. Having multiple recording systems provides redundancy in case one or the other crashes. That's one of the reasons there was so much initial buzz about the Zoom H4n; a lot of sound professional have one on hand in case everything goes to hell, it's a cheap back-up for the other back-up system, plus it's a fun toy to keep handy for collecting a quick sound effect. The Zoom marketing folks just picked up on "professionals use it" without explanation of why they have one.

A shotgun or hypercardioid on a boom is used in addition to a wireless lav on each actor with a speaking part; sometimes even plant mics will be used. Multiple mics provides the same kind of safety/redundancy.

Multiple mics also provide the dialog editors and mixers with choices for the best sounding and/or the most appropriate sounding dialog for the shot/scene. It is not at all unusual to combine the boom mic with the lav mic. I've done that myself; the boom mic sounds more natural while the lav gives more intelligibility. BTW, my first choice is always the boomed mic.

So, yes, use both. And use a hypercardioid instead of a shotgun mic if you are shooting indoors; it will sound much better.
 
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With a simple camcorder, you can record the LAV to one channel and the BOOM to the other (IE one on the LEFT side and the other on the RIGHT side).

That way in editing, you can choose or mix the two volume levels to get the best sound mix of the recording of dialogue.

Everything Alcove stated is GOLD.
 
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Alcove Audio said:
Don't do it! Suicide is not the way out!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. On to the topic at hand...



It does sound terrible to write that. I have to shoot myself because I cannot find anyone else to shoot...nice.

Meanwhile...I don't think the selection of the mics is bountiful...I believe the shotgun mic is an atr 55 and the matching lav 35s.
Click to expand...
 
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On that note, I would also have to borrow a boom pole for me to hold it over the actor. A stand to shoot me, trying to figure out where to put the mic so its not in the picture while still capturing my voice....and a really good camera tripod. The cheap tripod I have is a $15.00 job and when I turn the head it struggles and jerks.

But sound is a biggie for me (and lighting too)
 
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Just a little advice...

If you are the only one talking on the phone you could wear long sleeves and put the lav on the cuff of the shirt coinciding with the hand holding the phone. You'll have to fool around with the shot angle and lav placement so it's not seen and probably have to move it around as you change shot angles.

Oh, and make sure that the TV sound is off, otherwise editing the sound can be very difficult; you can always put it back in audio post.
 
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Libby said:
I was reading someplace that suggest using a lav mic AND a shotgun.
Realizing great sound is the objective...isn't that a little too much? What would be the reason for using both?

I can sign out mics at the local network here...and would I need to use both?

I have the intention to shoot indivduals both outside and indoors...just one 'actor' at a time...not a group shot. One outside shot but most inside.

I am also planning on shooting myself because there are not enough people...I will be seated on a couch watching tv and talking on the phone.

I guess I am asking what sort of mic would I use and would the shotgun/lav be useful in any scenerio?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

When the only mic you're using gets condensation on it or cuts out due to wind or static electricity, you'll be glad you had the lapel mic recording at the same time.

Where I work, Shotgun is the main mic and lapel is a backup.

It's all about safety, as Alcove so professionally puts it.
 
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What is the name of the device that allows you to use two mics if you only have one jack in your camera...its a name thats like beach something but I forgot.

Meanwhile... I will do the lav on the sleeve thing. Its going to be a pita because I will have to keep getting up and changing camera angles...but thats life...as far as the tv...I am only adding the tv later on ... I will shoot the tv separately because I will be using a premade dvd of something I would have filmed earlier...kind of like an infomercial....I will add the sound with that later so it wont interfere or get out of sync....

As far as the outside shot...yes it gets windy here alright. I don't know if they have a blimp? I think thats whats it called? - that I could use...but I will use both ....

Shukron
Merci
Gracias
 
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BEACHTEK adapters.

Your camera has a STEREO, left and right, input for a microphone. The Beachtek adapters allow you to put 2 XLR big microphone cables into the mini-pin stereo jack.
 
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Thanks. For the life of me I couldn't remember the name but knew it had the word BEACH in it.
The sound guy at the local studio was showing a group of us how to use it...I am using a Canon hf200.
 
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The BeachTek (you should also look at juicedLink) comes with an 1/8" minipin for connecting to the camera. XLR cables can be purchased at Radio Shack, but I would recommend better cables; they will have better shielding and last A LOT longer. My cable of choice are the Pro Co Excellines (installation) or LifeLines (one-set or on-stage). A bit pricier, but they last for years. I got a Radio Shack XLR cable in an emergency situation and continued using it; it only lasted a few months. In the long run the better cables cost you le$$.
 
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....and the better cables are available at Radio Shack or Best Buy? We have a load of R.S. 's around here.

Yeah. The sound guy at the studio had said the cables available were cheap to begin with and not taken care of properly to boot. They are knotted together in a case and thus are not guarenteed to work...so better use our own.
All the equitpment at this place is heavily used and not always put back properly by the loaners. I will probably invest in my own stuff...its a loan service thats free at a first come first serve basis for 24hours...well I know 24hours isn't enough time for me...esp me.
 
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Excellent questions, Libby, and as always class answers from the group.

If I may ask, I have a GL2 and an MA300 XLR adapter (I want to go BeachTek, but you use what you have, right?). Sorry to reiterate this but I really want to make sure I get this right (audio is not my strength). So basically I can plug my shotgun mic into one channel and a lav into another of the MA300, right? If so, that is wicked cool.

Plus I don't have a Zoom H4n yet (cannot afford one right now) but I did pick up a Alesis PalmTrack Handheld SD Recorder for sale on my monthly visit to local music store. The Alesis has stero and omnidirectional pickup patterns. Is that a quality backup? What's the best way to use this device - on-board mics, or connecting an external mic to it? I recall Alcove stating that these devices are best use to record ambient background sound (forgive me if I misquoted you, Alcove) and that is why I got it but I would also like to use it as a backup during the shoot. Also when recording dialogue, do I want to 24 bit-48kHz or crank this sucker up to the max, 64-bit 320 kHz?

Also, when recording dialogue between 2 or more people, would my boom-mic operator move the boom from person to person as they speak, or is this situation dealt with like a shot-reverse shot type of deal (where one person dominates the boom at a time)?

Finally, I have a laptop that I would like to use in my productions. Alcove can you detail how I can use it with this multitrack firewire interface you mentioned? What are the affordable front end devices that I can use to do this? Also what type of software do I have to have on my laptop to pull this off. Is this the equivalent of using the laptop as a mixer, or is the laptop just used as an audio capture device?

Sorry for the 50 questions, but I love threads like this because one can learn so much from it. Feel free to point me to a blog or anything if any of you have already addressed my questions somewhere else.

Thanks again, Libby for sparking this conversation.
 
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Kosh said:
So basically I can plug my shotgun mic into one channel and a lav into another of the MA300...
Click to expand...

Yes.

Kosh said:
Alesis PalmTrack... What's the best way to use this device - on-board mics, or connecting an external mic to it?
Click to expand...

I've never used one, but basically it's a musicians toy, just like most of the others in that category (Zoom H4n, Tascam DR series, etc.). They are good for picking up ambiences and the occasional sound effect. However, they are not serious production sound tools. The Zoom, at least, has XLR inputs, although it has many potential problems that I detailed in another thread.

Kosh said:
Also, when recording dialogue between 2 or more people, would my boom-mic operator move the boom from person to person as they speak, or is this situation dealt with like a shot-reverse shot type of deal (where one person dominates the boom at a time)?
Click to expand...

Yes, the boom-op moves the mic from actor to actor as they speak, hence the term swinging a boom. Being a boom-op is probably one of the most demanding jobs on the set. S/he has to keep the mic pointed at the talent while not making shadows and avoiding the many "obstacles" on the set while remaining completely silent.

Kosh said:
Finally, I have a laptop that I would like to use in my productions. Alcove can you detail how I can use it with this multitrack firewire interface you mentioned? What are the affordable front end devices that I can use to do this? Also what type of software do I have to have on my laptop to pull this off. Is this the equivalent of using the laptop as a mixer, or is the laptop just used as an audio capture device?
Click to expand...

"Affordable" is relative. There are a few passable devices in the $200 to $500 range. Most require external power sources. You would be mixing with the software which is sometimes bundled with the unit (usually Cubase Lite). Most pros use Boom Recorder, which is relatively affordable, with an external mixer.
 
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"Oh, and make sure that the TV sound is off, otherwise editing the sound can be very difficult; you can always put it back in audio post. "

Good stuff Alcove. I had some hard lessons learned on this kind of thing. In my current film, there is a propane camp stove turned on in several scenes. The one audio thing I could not fix in the film was the way the tone of the gas stove changes slightly between one shot and another (as the position of the mic relative to it changes). Drove me mad, not mad enough to ADR and foley the whole thing (had to do a fair bit of that in other scenes for other reasons), but big time lesson learned for next time. A TV or a Radio of course is an even bigger problem, but even small environmental sounds like that can be a major issue when you start editing.
 
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