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watch Bourne Style fight scene

It was okay. But I thought it was too shaky, but then again so is Bourne. I do like how unlike Bourne your shots last longer than 1/3 of a second. Makes it look like the fighters can nail more in short time. I'm not being sarcastic at all, that's actually a compliment.
 
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I must admit I raised my eyebrow when that door flew off the hinges and rocketed into the bathroom.

Was this house scheduled for some repairs anyway? I was very surprised at the actual destruction.
 
I must admit I raised my eyebrow when that door flew off the hinges and rocketed into the bathroom.

Was this house scheduled for some repairs anyway? I was very surprised at the actual destruction.

I noticed that too.

Character had like superhuman strength. I kept thinking "Whyz he need a gun?"
 
That's an impressive fight scene!

It's definitely too shaky, especially at the start, but you do an excellent job of keeping the action interesting and going forward. It definitely felt like it was all filmed in one take, which is a massive coup for low-budget action sequences.

But the camera can't do all the work for you and it needs to be kept a little bit stiller in order for people to be able to keep focused on the action, especially when you're shooting on a DSLR.
 
Thanks for all the tips!

Yeah, the house was actually scheduled to be torn down, so the destruction is my favourite part of this video! Some of it was even unplanned, like when Lance gets thrown through the wall. After the punch through the wall we only intended to 'bounce' off the wall and continue the fight, but since the studs were only 2x2, he went right through haha!
 
One thing I was not expecting was the dude running up the wall and flipping over the guys head. I don't think I've ever seen that done in a sitting room before, nice touch. And the drum kit?? Where did they come from? reminded me of the fight scene in step brothers. And the head in the microwave, classic. And I love at 3:20 the way the guy leaps from the table into the air.

What I like most is that it is so much fun. You guys had fun making it and it's really fun to watch. To be honest, too much fun. It's more like a Bourne style spoof and I feel that if I was smoking a doobie I would be laughing my ass off while reloading the same video 1000 times in one night catching something new each time to laugh at.

I hope you don't find this insulting, I mean it as a compliment.
 
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As seems usual with threads like this, the comments are entirely based on the visuals. I agree with the comments that the camera work is too shaky and distracting but by far the most obvious difference between this and the Bourne fight scenes is the sound, as there were a considerable number of elementary errors with the sound. There are quite a few editing clicks, some sync issues, quite poor balance between a lot of the SFX, distortion on some of the SFX and dialogue, poor EQ, weak and obvious looping in the music and some poor music editing and mixing judgements particularly before the fight starts.

Most of the errors indicate the audio post was done on a laptop or very low quality sound system and therefore you simply didn't hear most of these errors. When played on a laptop, many of the errors I've listed are either inaudible or barely audible and your mix sounds pretty good compared to many indie short fight scenes but played back on a decent sound system and the errors become annoyingly obvious. Screened in a cinema (where they have very high quality sound systems), say at a film festival and your mix would sound dramatically different and cause problems, especially in the low frequencies.

G
 
When played on a laptop, many of the errors I've listed are either inaudible or barely audible... but played back on a decent sound system and the errors become annoyingly obvious. Screened in a cinema (where they have very high quality sound systems), say at a film festival and your mix would sound dramatically different and cause problems, especially in the low frequencies.
Since film festivals are the overwhelming likelihood of most indie material around here would you be able to sugget a few options for "decent sound systems" in the under $1,000 market w/ (USB) plug ins for desktop or laptop?

I believe you have a very good point that laptop screens may have fantastic resolution for visual editing, but the speakers and headphone output are likely just at or above par. Gross mismatch.
How do we bring parity?

TYIA
 
I believe you have a very good point that laptop screens may have fantastic resolution for visual editing, but the speakers and headphone output are likely just at or above par. Gross mismatch.
How do we bring parity?

I would say it's much worse than that. Most laptops have less than about $30 worth of audio components inside and even the best ones probably no more than $50 or so. With the exception of cell phones, the sound out of laptops represents about the poorest audio quality money can buy! There's simply not enough space for decent speakers in a laptop and they can't physically reproduce low frequencies.

Since film festivals are the overwhelming likelihood of most indie material around here would you be able to sugget a few options for "decent sound systems" in the under $1,000 market w/ (USB) plug ins for desktop or laptop?

In short, NO. Although I've done it elsewhere, I'll explain why and then I'll try and suggest the best work around for under $1k.

Cinema sound systems represent about the highest quality sound systems most people will ever get to experience. The front 3 speakers are all full range (20Hz - 20kHz), plus the subs in many cinemas often go as low as 15Hz. Most laptops cannot reproduce frequencies much below about 80Hz and some can't reproduce anything below 120Hz. This means that you can be happily mixing away on a laptop, completely oblivious to the fact you might have quite a bit of material at say 50Hz (which would be inaudible on your laptop) but could blow the heads off the audience in a cinema (say at a film festival). The ONLY way of knowing what your mix is going to sound like in a cinema is to reproduce the size, acoustics and sound systems found in cinemas, this is why all the theatrical mix rooms are so incredibly expensive to hire. Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts or ways to cheat or work around this fundamental fact, period! The best you can do is get as close to this scenario as possible, the closer you get, the more chance your mix has of translating well when played back in a cinema. Obviously a laptop is about as far away as you can get from a cinema and is therefore about the worst thing you can use to create a mix destined for a film festival.

But obviously there are ways you can improve what you're doing compared to using the worst equipment possible (a laptop). The first thing you can do is to spend about $200 on a set of professional headphones. You usually sit many meters away from the speakers in a cinema and the impact on sound reproduction of the acoustics of the mixing environment/cinema cannot be over stated. So in this regard headphones are in fact the worst thing you can use for mixing because the speakers are about an inch or less from your ear and the stereo positioning and frequency response of headphones is going to be completely different to what you will hear in a cinema. However, good quality professional headphones do offer the cheapest way of hearing content in the low frequencies. You won't get a good idea of the balance of the lower frequency content but at least you can hear it, which is a lot better than hearing nothing, as would be the case on a laptop! Headphones are also good at reproducing fine detail, useful for editing dialogue and identifying clicks, other spurious sounds and mismatched room tones/edits which you would otherwise miss on anything other than a very highly specified sound system. There are quite a few headphones marketed as "professional" (which aren't) and there are also quite a few which are actually professional grade, it's often difficult to figure out which is which. My recommendation would be for something like the Sennheiser HD 380 Pro which list at $200 but you might be lucky to find at $160 or so.

That leaves you with about $800. For this I would get as good a set of nearfield monitors as you can and economise with making your own acoustic treatments for your room, remembering that 50% of the performance of speaker/monitors is the acoustics of the room they are in. You are not going to get anything for this money which will get you even vaguely into the same ball park as a cinema system, even from just the frequency range they are able to reproduce (usually no lower than 40Hz - 50Hz), let alone the room size, acoustics or balance but this is the best you can do, unless you start putting one or more zeros on the end of your budget. Baring in mind that what you are trying to achieve with speakers is a synergy with your room size and acoustics. without knowing these variables it's impossible to recommend anything specifically. It's worth knowing that the pro ranges of Blue-Sky, Genelec and JBL tend to dominate the audio post market but there are good products from Adam, ATC and others in the $500-$600 price range. With the remaining $200-$300 spent on DIY acoustic treatment.

The workflow would be to do most of the sound editing on headphones and most of the mixing on speakers, checking your mix with headphones for obvious low frequency foul ups. If you are going to be distributing on the web, then by all means also check the mix sounds OK on a laptop. Whatever you do with this budget though, your mix is going to sound quite different when it gets to the cinema but at least you can get rid of many of the most elementary mistakes and hope that different doesn't mean terrible!

G
 
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I would say it's much worse than that. Most laptops have less than about $30 worth of audio components inside and even the best ones probably no more than $50 or so. With the exception of cell phones, the sound out of laptops represents about the poorest audio quality money can buy! There's simply not enough space for decent speakers in a laptop and they can't physically reproduce low frequencies.



In short, NO. Although I've done it elsewhere, I'll explain why and then I'll try and suggest the best work around for under $1k.

Cinema sound systems represent about the highest quality sound systems most people will ever get to experience. The front 3 speakers are all full range (20Hz - 20kHz), plus the subs in many cinemas often go as low as 15Hz. Most laptops cannot reproduce frequencies much below about 80Hz and some can't reproduce anything below 120Hz. This means that you can be happily mixing away on a laptop, completely oblivious to the fact you might have quite a bit of material at say 50Hz (which would be inaudible on your laptop) but could blow the heads off the audience in a cinema (say at a film festival). The ONLY way of knowing what your mix is going to sound like in a cinema is to reproduce the size, acoustics and sound systems found in cinemas, this is why all the theatrical mix rooms are so incredibly expensive to hire. Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts or ways to cheat or work around this fundamental fact, period! The best you can do is get as close to this scenario as possible, the closer you get, the more chance your mix has of translating well when played back in a cinema. Obviously a laptop is about as far away as you can get from a cinema and is therefore about the worst thing you can use to create a mix destined for a film festival.

But obviously there are ways you can improve what you're doing compared to using the worst equipment possible (a laptop). The first thing you can do is to spend about $200 on a set of professional headphones. You usually sit many meters away from the speakers in a cinema and the impact on sound reproduction of the acoustics of the mixing environment/cinema cannot be over stated. So in this regard headphones are in fact the worst thing you can use for mixing because the speakers are about an inch or less from your ear and the stereo positioning and frequency response of headphones is going to be completely different to what you will hear in a cinema. However, good quality professional headphones do offer the cheapest way of hearing content in the low frequencies. You won't get a good idea of the balance of the lower frequency content but at least you can hear it, which is a lot better than hearing nothing, as would be the case on a laptop! Headphones are also good at reproducing fine detail, useful for editing dialogue and identifying clicks, other spurious sounds and mismatched room tones/edits which you would otherwise miss on anything other than a very highly specified sound system. There are quite a few headphones marketed as "professional" (which aren't) and there are also quite a few which are actually professional grade, it's often difficult to figure out which is which. My recommendation would be for something like the Sennheiser HD 380 Pro which list at $200 but you might be lucky to find at $160 or so.

That leaves you with about $800. For this I would get as good a set of nearfield monitors as you can and economise with making your own acoustic treatments for your room, remembering that 50% of the performance of speaker/monitors is the acoustics of the room they are in. You are not going to get anything for this money which will get you even vaguely into the same ball park as a cinema system, even from just the frequency range they are able to reproduce (usually no lower than 40Hz - 50Hz), let alone the room size, acoustics or balance but this is the best you can do, unless you start putting one or more zeros on the end of your budget. Baring in mind that what you are trying to achieve with speakers is a synergy with your room size and acoustics. without knowing these variables it's impossible to recommend anything specifically. It's worth knowing that the pro ranges of Blue-Sky, Genelec and JBL tend to dominate the audio post market but there are good products from Adam, ATC and others in the $500-$600 price range. With the remaining $200-$300 spent on DIY acoustic treatment.

The workflow would be to do most of the sound editing on headphones and most of the mixing on speakers, checking your mix with headphones for obvious low frequency foul ups. If you are going to be distributing on the web, then by all means also check the mix sounds OK on a laptop. Whatever you do with this budget though, your mix is going to sound quite different when it gets to the cinema but at least you can get rid of many of the most elementary mistakes and hope that different doesn't mean terrible!

G

WOW that's a lot of info haha. Thanks for that though, really got me thinking about how to improve the quality of sound for my next project, especially important since I'll soon be considering film festivals next!
 
more gratuitous Hollywood knock offs *yawn* especially when he first enters the house, goes out of his way to put his shoulder in the wall. but yeh, that's fine I guess. people have talent, like you, but apply it to something original. i suspect if people wanted to see "a bourne style fight scene" then maybe they'd just go watch...Bourne...maybe?

Punch us in the face with a new idea. That hurts so good. Peace&Love.
 
Okay, I finally got to a computer where I could watch your action scene.
The fight itself is choreographed well, the set up and finish a bit uninteresting, and the camerawork is waaay too unnecessarily herky-jerky, as already pointed out.

I just watched THE RAID: REDEMPTION, twice, and its DVD extras which I believe you would be able to find some good takeaways.

What they used was a 4/3 Panasonic AG-AF100 in a Fig Rig which you can make a DIY version, and variants, for way cheap.
Great for a lightweight camera setup to cut down on some of the herky-jerky.


This is Clip #1 of four. They're pretty close to the effect I think you might want to achieve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hYsVqpiEa4
Almost ignore the action itself. Just pay attention to the corners of the frame. (retarded, I know, but... ) :)

Another point the director made, and I would subscribe to, is to NOT have the camera shot so tight in on the action that you can hardly tell what's happening.
Pull back out some and allow the viewer to better enjoy the movement and flow of the action.


Oh, cool!
Here're some BTS clips!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZAvCEcjL48
 
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Cinema sound systems represent about the highest quality sound systems most people will ever get to experience. The front 3 speakers are all full range (20Hz - 20kHz), plus the subs in many cinemas often go as low as 15Hz. Most laptops cannot reproduce frequencies much below about 80Hz and some can't reproduce anything below 120Hz. This means that you can be happily mixing away on a laptop, completely oblivious to the fact you might have quite a bit of material at say 50Hz (which would be inaudible on your laptop) but could blow the heads off the audience in a cinema (say at a film festival)...

... get as good a set of nearfield monitors ... even from just the frequency range they are able to reproduce (usually no lower than 40Hz - 50Hz)...
Alright.
So, if I parsed through this correctly, what I'm looking for are "low frequency" computer speakers, right?

If so, good Lord, I don't know who to dislike more, consumers who don't know WTH they're looking for or the manufacturer/marketers that pander to their ignorances.
I just want some tech specs, and finding anything with it's Hz-kHz range is difficult.
Sub-woof this and deep bass-that don't tell me sh!t.
@sses.
Is there some sort of wattage output correlation to Hz?

Anyway, after a more than casual look around what I've started coming up with is something like:
A - Logitech X-140 Speaker System, Frequency Response: 80Hz to 18kHz, for $34.95 @ http://www.4homespeakers.com/loxspsy.html
It's relatively cheap cr@p, but at 80Hz it's only marginally better than my current $20 100 Hz to 20 kHz speakers.

B - Creative Labs Gigaworks Series II T20 Speaker System, Frequency Response: 50Hz to 20kHz, for $113.40 @ http://www.ebay.com/itm/390457650632?hlp=false#ht_2820wt_1135
Does a 50Hz to 20kHz speaker system put Mr/Ms Nobudgetfilmmaker in the ballpark of potentially catching some of the egregious audio output that'll kibosh on our nubie film festival submissions, (all other glaring technical and artistic reasons aside, of course. :D)?
 
OK, I'll try to answer this without writing a small book and without using too many technical terms.

So, if I parsed through this correctly, what I'm looking for are "low frequency" computer speakers, right?

In a word, "No"! There are quite a number of issues to deal with, low frequency (LF) response being just one of them. Forget LF for now, I'll come back to that later. What we want are speakers that are as accurate as possible, in other words, studio monitors rather than speakers. By this I mean able to reproduce fine detail with clarity and a very well defined stereo image. That rules out every computer speaker I've ever heard. There's going to be all kinds of fine detail missing from what you can hear, even with $200 computer speakers, which will be obvious in a cinema. You've taken a step in the right direction compared to laptop speakers but you're still not in the same city as the ball park, let alone in the same ball park. For $500-$600 you can buy reasonable quality monitors (rather than consumer speakers) which still won't put you anywhere near the ball park but at least you'll be in the burbs of the same city!

Now back to LF. Of all the problems to solve, LF is the biggest PITA of them all, for several reasons. First of all, we are very insensitive to LF volume, so you need roughly 1000 times more level for a 50Hz signal to sound the same volume as a 3kHz signal. To produce a speaker that can output 1000 times more energy but with the same detail and accuracy is an engineering challenge. To make matters worse, these required output levels in the LF range are going to interact greatly with the resonant frequencies which every room has (room modes). This is going to cause some freqs to be amplified by 20dB or more and others to be attenuated (made quieter) by 20dB or more. BTW, 20dB is roughly 10 times more level, so it's not a minor problem! To solve these acoustical problems is either very expensive or impossible. Getting a detailed, accurate bass response from a speaker system costs big bucks, with no shortcuts. That's why I suggested headphones, to avoid this whole acoustical minefield/nightmare.

The last issue is that to get a sound system with a freq range down to 20Hz in a small room means getting a bass managed system (2.1 system) with a sub-woofer. These are very difficult to setup accurately and even if you manage to, they don't sound anything like a cinema system which don't use sub-woofers or bass managed systems.

If so, good Lord, I don't know who to dislike more, consumers who don't know WTH they're looking for or the manufacturer/marketers that pander to their ignorances.
I just want some tech specs, and finding anything with it's Hz-kHz range is difficult.
Sub-woof this and deep bass-that don't tell me sh!t.

Baring in mind what I've said above, they have to be careful what they say in their marketing because the performance of the bass is so dependent on the room acoustics. Personally I blame the manufacturers/marketers, there's so much smoke and mirrors in consumer audio marketing it's truly shocking!

Is there some sort of wattage output correlation to Hz?

Sort of but it can't unfortunately be used for your needs. This is again due to room size and acoustics. Rather than try and explain the inverse square law and Fletcher/Munson Curves I'll give an imprecise example. A 50w 50Hz signal would probably make all the furniture in your bedroom vibrate but would be virtually inaudible in a cinema. You'd probably need over a kilowatt in a cinema to hear the same volume. So you can't put nearfield monitors in a cinema and you can't put cinema speakers in your living room!

The solution I gave in the previous message is a long, long way from perfect but with a budget of $1k, it's the least imperfect solution and therefore represents the best chance of avoiding the worst of the fundamental mistakes/errors.

G
 
I was taught that if I've nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all...

BUT, I did like the camera work in beginning, biting the cheeseburger gave a sense of levity, preparing me for what was to come, and the footsteps above while the hitman was in the basement sounded good (on my laptop.
I also think that the fight was probably well choreographed and executed by the performers, but unfortunately, the camera work destroyed it. I mean: I couldn't watch it all - that's how bad it was.

You plugged this scene as Bourne-esque, but I really didn't get that; instead, I felt that you'd sold yourself off cheap by making that statement. Men don't run up walls ala WrestleMania in Bourne; nor do they punch through walls (yet fail to break mirrors!!!); they roll around looking for arm locks and strike like they've all been taught Wing Chun Sticky hands.

In a different thread I expressed how the camera was too close a couple of times... in this, it's too close and too eratic pretty much for the entire fight.

But, you do have the foundations of excellence to build upon, so live and learn.
 
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