Zoom H4n

[ATH]

I tried the Zoom H4n for the first time and wasn't impressed. Anything comparable in this price range, or even a step up that won't break the bank?

 

[AcousticAl]

Tascam DR-40.

I've never been terribly impressed by Zoom recorders. The original H4 broke some ground, but Samson/Zoom didn't keep up as other manufacturers screamed past them shortly thereafter.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Also the Tascam DR-100mkII.

BTW, what mic(s) did you use? Was the mic on a boom-pole or mounted on the camera? Who was booming? Provide a lot more details.

First, you shouldn't expect much from micro budget gear. Second, capturing solid production sound is more about having the knowledge, acquiring the skills and precise technique than the gear. Using cheap gear means that you need more knowledge, skill and technique as you must overcome the shortcomings of the cheap gear.

 

[IndiePaul]

I'd 100% agree with what the previous posters said. Alcove Audio is one of the audio pros here.

When you post questions like this, it would be very helpful to be told what other audio gear you have and what sound you'll be capturing primarily (crucially where and how: indoors, outdoors, booming etc).

I know you said "Anything comparable in this price range" but I'm going to go out on a limb here: if your budget can stretch into the $660 price range then this gives you probably the best bang for the buck...

Marantz PMD661 MKII Professional Portable Flash Field Recorder
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...661mkii_Marantz_PMD661_MKII_Professional.html

The key is the pre-amps the Marantz uses are hugely better than the pre-amps in either the Zoom H4 or Tascam DR-40 / DR-100 / DR-60 so for film making that means when you use the gain (which you will) on the Marantz, you'll have near noiseless gain as opposed to the more noisy gain on the Zoom / Tascam. That means much better sound (provided you have a decent mic and audio technique).

Obviously there is no point spending $660 on the Marantz if you're parring it with a poor quality mic or bad/poor audio technique.

I use a Tascam DR40 but I bypass the Tascam's pre-amps and use a dedicated pre-amp (a Sound Devices MM1 - the pre-amps on the MM1 are outstanding). My primary mic is an Audio Technica AT4053b which is highly regarded for indoor sound capture.

Capturing good audio is crucial to most indie projects and unfortunately that requires spending considerable $$$ (most new indie film makers do not budget enough for audio capture). The other part of the equation is knowing how to use the gear properly and practice/experience using it...

 

[ATH]

Also the Tascam DR-100mkII.

BTW, what mic(s) did you use? Was the mic on a boom-pole or mounted on the camera? Who was booming? Provide a lot more details.

First, you shouldn't expect much from micro budget gear. Second, capturing solid production sound is more about having the knowledge, acquiring the skills and precise technique than the gear. Using cheap gear means that you need more knowledge, skill and technique as you must overcome the shortcomings of the cheap gear.

I used RODE NTG1 and a lav mic Sennheiser ew100 g2, in two different recording sessions. The boom guy supposed to be a professional. The Rode provided very low volume and echo-y in enclosed space like the bathroom. The lav mic picked up a lot of noise from body movements.

 

[ATH]

I'd 100% agree with what the previous posters said. Alcove Audio is one of the audio pros here.

When you post questions like this, it would be very helpful to be told what other audio gear you have and what sound you'll be capturing primarily (crucially where and how: indoors, outdoors, booming etc).

I know you said "Anything comparable in this price range" but I'm going to go out on a limb here: if your budget can stretch into the $660 price range then this gives you probably the best bang for the buck...

Marantz PMD661 MKII Professional Portable Flash Field Recorder
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...661mkii_Marantz_PMD661_MKII_Professional.html

The key is the pre-amps the Marantz uses are hugely better than the pre-amps in either the Zoom H4 or Tascam DR-40 / DR-100 / DR-60 so for film making that means when you use the gain (which you will) on the Marantz, you'll have near noiseless gain as opposed to the more noisy gain on the Zoom / Tascam. That means much better sound (provided you have a decent mic and audio technique).

Obviously there is no point spending $660 on the Marantz if you're parring it with a poor quality mic or bad/poor audio technique.

I use a Tascam DR40 but I bypass the Tascam's pre-amps and use a dedicated pre-amp (a Sound Devices MM1 - the pre-amps on the MM1 are outstanding). My primary mic is an Audio Technica AT4053b which is highly regarded for indoor sound capture.

Capturing good audio is crucial to most indie projects and unfortunately that requires spending considerable $$$ (most new indie film makers do not budget enough for audio capture). The other part of the equation is knowing how to use the gear properly and practice/experience using it...

The recorder and the mic you mentioned are way out of my range. But if I know for sure I will capture fantastic sound I would sell my left arm

 

[ATH]

Also the Tascam DR-100mkII.

BTW, what mic(s) did you use? Was the mic on a boom-pole or mounted on the camera? Who was booming? Provide a lot more details.

First, you shouldn't expect much from micro budget gear. Second, capturing solid production sound is more about having the knowledge, acquiring the skills and precise technique than the gear. Using cheap gear means that you need more knowledge, skill and technique as you must overcome the shortcomings of the cheap gear.

Please give me a list of equipments that would produce acceptable sounds from professional view. Of course I have no budget but if it's reasonable I could set a goal. Thanks.

 

[knightly]

With the Zoom, you'll want to increase the recording volume to bring the meters up when the subject is talking over -6 without making it over 0 ever. It's a dance that is hard to manage with the zoom as the record levels aren't something that is easily changed on the fly with it. As with a camera, you need to properly "expose" the "image" coming into the unit to get good results without overexposing it.

 

[Alcove Audio]

You still haven't answered any of the questions regarding what mic you used, what you were recording, how you were using the gear, etc.

However....

You'll need a good mic, a passable recorder and the proper accessories. An entry level prosumer kit will set you back about $1,200.

Select one from each category:


Shotgun mic kits will have the shotgun mic, boom-pole, shock-mount and simple wind protection (softie).

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/551607-REG/Audio_Technica_AT_875_Shotgun_Microphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...chnica_AT897BK_AT_897_Shotgun_Microphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/461493-REG/Rode_NTG_1_Shotgun_Condenser.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/747422-REG/Rode_NTG_2_Shotgun_Microphone_HDSLR.html


Hypercardioid mic:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/867157-REG/Avantone_Pro_CK1_CK_1_Small_Capsule_FET_Pencil.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/359043-REG/sE_Electronics_SE1A_SE1A_Small_Diaphragm.html



Audio recorders:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/832911-REG/Tascam_DR100MKII_DR_100mkII_Portable_Linear.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821259-REG/Tascam_DR_40_DR_40_4_Track_Handheld_Digital.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821260-REG/Roland_R_26_R_26_6_Channel_Digital_Field.html



Headphones:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/49510-REG/Sony_MDR_7506_MDR_7506_Headphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/507447-REG/Sennheiser_HD_25_1_II_HD_25_1_II.html



You'll also need cables, cases, battery packs and other miscellaneous items - about $200+.




But who is going to run the sound for you? They will know less about sound than you do; and you don't know much. (Don't be insulted, I wouldn't know an F-stop from a bus stop; and I'm married a photographer.) That's always the issue - knowledge, skill and experience. Even if you learn a lot about sound when you are on the set you won't be handling the sound responsibilities, someone else will, because you can't direct, DP and do production sound all at the same time.

 

[ATH]

You still haven't answered any of the questions regarding what mic you used, what you were recording, how you were using the gear, etc.

You might have missed my answer to your question: I used RODE NTG1 and a lav mic Sennheiser ew100 g2, in two different recording sessions. The boom guy supposed to be a professional. The Rode provided very low volume and echo-y in enclosed space like the bathroom. The lav mic picked up a lot of noise from body movements.

 

[IndiePaul]

You might have missed my answer to your question: I used RODE NTG1 and a lav mic Sennheiser ew100 g2, in two different recording sessions. The boom guy supposed to be a professional. The Rode provided very low volume and echo-y in enclosed space like the bathroom. The lav mic picked up a lot of noise from body movements.

Is that gear you still have? Or have simply used that gear in the past?

 

[AcousticAl]

I used RODE NTG1 and a lav mic Sennheiser ew100 g2, in two different recording sessions. The boom guy supposed to be a professional. The Rode provided very low volume and echo-y in enclosed space like the bathroom. The lav mic picked up a lot of noise from body movements.

The RØDE NTG-1 and NTG-2 mics have a lower output than some, and the weak pre-amps of the Zoom recorders cannot provide enough clean gain to get proper recording levels with these mics.

Fact is, most of the lower-budget, handheld recorders have weaker pre-amps (though some are better than others). The mic isn't necessarily the problem, as the NTG-1 and NTG-2 are both very good budget shotguns. It's the combination of a lower output mic with a weaker pre-amp. So you have a couple of different solutions. You could get a mic with a hotter output that is known to work better with these little recorders (AT875, for example), or you can add a mixer or external pre-amp in front of the recorder. And honestly, adding a mixer or pre-amp is the better way to go anyway even if it may be a little more expensive.

The two to consider, if you can make them happen, are the Sound Devices MM-1 pre-amp and the Sound Devices MixPre-D (though if you can find a good deal on a used MixPre - not the "D" - then take it; it's essentially the same as the "D" minus a few enhanced features).

 

[A.D.]

The Rode provided very low volume and echo-y in enclosed space like the bathroom. The lav mic picked up a lot of noise from body movements.

You should be able to hang some absorbant material to reduce the amount of sound bouncing around the room when micing in enclosed, and poor accoustic spaces.

For the lavs, try different mic placement and the moleskin wrap trick.

 

[ATH]

Is that gear you still have? Or have simply used that gear in the past?

I stil have those mic but rented the zoom.

 

[Alcove Audio]

I used RODE NTG1

Bad choice for indoors; you should use a hypercardioid mic.

The boom guy supposed to be a professional.

A professional would have his/her own equipment, and would have known that you use a hyper indoors.

The Rode provided very low volume

AcousticAl covered that rather well. And, again, a pro would have had their own gear.

The lav mic picked up a lot of noise from body movements.

Lavs take a great deal of skill (not to mention the proper accessories like moleskin, etc.) to place properly. And even then there will be clothing problems; it's the nature of the beast.


As I said earlier in the thread - and have said thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of times previously - capturing solid production sound takes a great deal of knowledge, technique and skill. And I haven't even started on audio post.......

 

[ATH]

Bad choice for indoors; you should use a hypercardioid mic.

So I should never use shotgun mic for indoor?

 

[AcousticAl]

So I should never use shotgun mic for indoor?

Never say never, but as a beginner... no.

Shotgun mics are much more susceptible to reflections in bright, reverberant rooms. There are some interiors where a shotgun will work perfectly well. And some shotguns work better than others for interiors. But because of the complexity of this topic, and since hypercardioids are much more forgiving in reflective rooms, it's a good rule of thumb for beginners that shotguns are for outdoors and hypercardioids for indoors. Of course, you have to learn to play by the rules in order to gain the knowledge and skill to break them.

 

[5duser]

Sold mine, considering to purchase H6 or Roland R26