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Will this type of villain work?

H

harmonica44

I was thinking about doing something like neo-nazi villains, in modern times. But the whole nazi theme has been done before a lot and in most WWII films. One army from WWII that isn't done near as often are the Japanese. However there has been much more neo-nazi group criminal activity in real life, after WWII, but no "neo-Japanese army" groups, or whatever you would call them. Would it feasible and make enough sense to have a modern group that wants to carry out the beliefs of the Japanese of WWII, or would that just not work as a theme, for a thriller? Thanks. Just so there is no confusion, this is a new idea, and not of my other script discussions before.
 
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harmonica44 said:
I was thinking about doing something like neo-nazi villains, in modern times. But the whole nazi theme has been done before a lot and in most WWII films. One army from WWII that isn't done near as often are the Japanese. However there has been much more neo-nazi group criminal activity in real life, after WWII, but no "neo-Japanese army" groups, or whatever you would call them. Would it feasible and make enough sense to have a modern group that wants to carry out the beliefs of the Japanese of WWII, or would that just not work as a theme, for a thriller? Thanks. Just so there is no confusion, this is a new idea, and not of my other script discussions before.
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Wow, that was pretty redundant.

I wish I could help you, man, but sometimes I really have no clue what you're talking about. You want a neo-Nazi villain who follows Japanese customs? That's HIGHLY improbable, and makes absolutely no sense... but go ahead and do it anyway! It might just be crazy enough to work.
 
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No I'm saying I want villains who are kinda like neo-nazis, but neo-Japanese army instead. Not a neo-nazi that follows. I was using neo-nazi as example of a group of villains who follow customs of an army in the past.
 
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harmonica44 said:
No I'm saying I want villains who are kinda like neo-nazis, but neo-Japanese army instead. Not a neo-nazi that follows. I was using neo-nazi as example of a group of villains who follow customs of an army in the past.
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I see. So you mean like Jin-Roh?:

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20081107_Jin-Roh.gif
 
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I haven't seen Jin-Roh, but I read the plot and it doesn't sound at all like mine. Here's a way to establish why or why not the premise will work. There are neo-nazi groups in the real world. But no "neo-Imperial Japan group". So the question is why? Why is one a lot more feasible than the other, if that's the case?
 
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If you want this to be realistic - and it doesn't matter if you don't, it is a movie after all - you really need to do some research. Nazism was a political movement and Japanese is, well, being Japanese. Germany and Japan joined forces primarily because they were both on a path of expansionism, not because both leaders were committed to Nazism. This alliance was strengthened by the Anti-Comintern Pact (effectively an agreement to defend each other from the Soviet Union) and although Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan shared some political and militaristic aims, it was an alliance of practical significance as much as it was ideological.

To answer your main question - from a quick glance at Wikipedia, it's estimated that "there are over 1,000 [nationalist] right-wing groups in Japan, with about 100,000 members in total" so your idea of Nationalist Japanese terrorists is not completely unrealistic. But you also asked why there are neo-Nazi groups all over the world and not neo-Japanese Imperialists - the clue's in the name. Nazism is not an ideology exclusive to Germany - racism, homophobia, anti-Semitism and militant fascism are values (if that's the right word) that are held by people around the world. The strong belief in Japan's superiority as a country is, funnily enough, not one held by many people outside of Japan.
 
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chilipie said:
But you also asked why there are neo-Nazi groups all over the world and not neo-Japanese Imperialists - the clue's in the name. Nazism is not an ideology exclusive to Germany - racism, homophobia, anti-Semitism and militant fascism are values (if that's the right word) that are held by people around the world. The strong belief in Japan's superiority as a country is, funnily enough, not one held by many people outside of Japan.
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Very well put chilipie
 
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chilipie said:
The strong belief in Japan's superiority as a country is, funnily enough, not one held by many people outside of Japan.
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You've never been to an anime convention ;-)

Seriously though, if you make the characters mentally unstable enough, almost ANY idealogy can seem realistic. I think the idea is a good one and has a lot of potential. You can even play up the no-real-life-analogue angle; the society is HIGHLY organized and secretive, and won't strike until they are ready. You can even play up the desdain for neo-nazi racist troublemakers (in dungeons and dragons terms, lawful evil vs. chaotic evil. The nazis themselves were closer to the lawful side, as facists tend to be, but neo-nazis are DEFINITELY chaotic). It could definitely work as a thriller; though more on the cult/secret society side of thrillers. At least this angle on it anyway. So, go for it, I look forward to seeing what you come up with!
 
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I doubt that Nazis as villians will ever be truly exhausted. Personally, I think they will make excellant villians for a long time to come. Two recent films that used them to very excellant effect, even after decades of earlier films doing the very thing, are Inglorious Basterds and Hell Boy. Oh, does that mean that the quota for using Nazis as film villians has been met? I sure don't think so. I sure hope not. From Raiders of the Lost Ark's René Belloq (Nazi collaborator) to Hell Boy's Karl Ruprecht Kroenen to Inglorious Basterd's Col. Hans Landa, when done well, you can hardly beat a Nazi bad guy.

I guess I won't comment on the Japanese Neo-imperialist Bad Guys Idea because I don't want to discourage you. Unnecessary for me to chip and say, but of course Chilipie and others gave you excellant advice: you want to take (at least a cursory) look at Japanese history and culture since then to make that decision IMO.
 
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Yes. Yes, it will work.

Please make this movie, please make this movie, please make this movie, please make this movie, please make this movie, please make this movie, please make this movie, please make this movie, please make this movie!!!

I would pay money to see this, and I'm being absolutely sincere. Maybe not a lot of money, but I'd pay money.

And when you're done, I think I will make a movie about a neo-Spanish-conquistador villain.

As chilipie mentioned, there is a fundemental difference between Nazis and Japanese Imperialists. The Nazis tried to exterminate an entire ethnicity, and they made a pretty-freaking-big dent, enough to permanently scar all of humanity. The Japanese just wanted control over more land. Neo-nazis are a bunch of inbred idiots who think that their life of squalor can be blamed on Jews, blacks and homosexuals. What sort of ideology would a "neo-Japanese" manifest?

If you're going for serious realism, no, this won't work. If you're going for silliness, by all means, do it.

Besides, it's been done already:

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/151501/chinpoko-mon-camp

And again:

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/254177/never-forget-what-happened

Fuck you, dolphin! Fuck you, whale!
 
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Cracker Funk said:
Yes. Yes, it will work.

As chilipie mentioned, there is a fundemental difference between Nazis and Japanese Imperialists. The Nazis tried to exterminate an entire ethnicity, and they made a pretty-freaking-big dent, enough to permanently scar all of humanity. The Japanese just wanted control over more land. Neo-nazis are a bunch of inbred idiots who think that their life of squalor can be blamed on Jews, blacks and homosexuals. What sort of ideology would a "neo-Japanese" manifest?

If you're going for serious realism, no, this won't work. If you're going for silliness, by all means, do it.
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Chinese cinema. My Chinese mother witnessed the ethnic cleansing the Japanese perpetrated on the Chinese people. They are certainly comparable to Chinese families.

The Japanese wholesale, wiped out villages, families, towns, cities with a barbarism personified by the rape of Nanking.
 
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gorillaonabike said:
Chinese cinema. My Chinese mother witnessed the ethnic cleansing the Japanese perpetrated on the Chinese people. They are certainly comparable to Chinese families.

The Japanese wholesale, wiped out villages, families, towns, cities with a barbarism personified by the rape of Nanking.
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I don't think Cracker was for one instant disregarding the acts of immense cruelty perpetrated by the Imperial Japanese Army, and I know I wasn't. As a question of ideology though, Japanese nationalism does not live on today in the same way that Nazism does.
 
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There is absolutely no comparison between Nazi Germany and Imperialistic Japan. War is a bad thing. Japan did bad things in WWII. So did we.

But Japan did not routinely kill 6 MILLION Chinese.

This historical discussion almost feels like a bit of an aside, but it's actually a very precise response to the OP's question. The reason this won't work, at least not in a serious way, is because it's a ridiculous comparison.

What the Japanese did, in WWII, is essentially no different than what countless nations have done before, including the USA. What the Germans did, in WWII, is exceptionally horrific.

War is horrific. The wars we are in, right now, are horrific. The wars we turn a blind-eye to, right now, are horrific. But Nazi Germany took it to a whole nother level.

Again, from the perspective of telling a compelling story, what would a "neo-Japanese" be like? What would their motivation be? If you have even the slightest understanding of the history, the concept is ridiculously silly. If "South Park" has done it, TWICE, it's not something to be taken seriously.

Chicken & Cow?!!!
 
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For what's it worth, the Nanking Massacre that gorillaonabike touched upon was as unbelievably horrific as the Nazis' worst crimes, albeit not on such a large scale (official estimates are 200,000 plus killed, and 80,000 women raped). Utterly horrific, but acts of savagery not cult-like political zealotry.
 
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chilipie said:
For what's it worth, the Nanking Massacre that gorillaonabike touched upon was as unbelievably horrific as the Nazis' worst crimes, albeit not on such a large scale (official estimates are 200,000 plus killed, and 80,000 women raped). Utterly horrific, but acts of savagery not cult-like political zealotry.
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Political discussions aside - the answer for the OP is that Japanese Imperialism lives on in Chinese cinema. I can think of 20 films off the top of my head starting with 霍元甲 - I think this is 'Fearless' - Jet Li, 'Fist of Fury,' Jet Li and then just last year, Ip Man 2, Return of Chen zhen, East Wind Rain (was 'The Message' from last year or 2009...?) - all of which are anti-Japanese Imperialism movies. There are countless examples (Chen zhen being a popular Chinese character). And in case you get bored of Chinese cinema, Korean cinema will provide you with rich pickings.

In terms of cult-like political zealotry I suggest you start with Kempeitai. This may give you some plot ideas if you were to extrapolate this to the present day.

Western cinema ignores Japanese atricities just as Chinese cinema ignores Nazi atrocities.

To answer Cracker's extremely limited understanding of Japanese atrocities, he is correct in that there is no comparison between the Nazis killing defenceless Jews and the Japanese murdering defenceless Chinese. In total, we estimate 6 million Jewish civilians were killed by the Nazis whereas over 20 million Chinese civilians were murdered by the Japanese (Wikipedia puts it as 23 million).

The worst example of Japanese atrocities is the Japanese rape of Manchuria resulted in the murder of 200,000 Chinese and rape of 80,000 women in one sitting. There are countless films about this in Chinese cinema.

If anyone doubts this number, they are more than welcome to do a little research. Start with Wikipedia which has pictures of the Japanese burying Chinese prisoners alive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
 
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SiCurious said:
Wow, this thread has really opened my eyes. Thanks, GoaB, for introducing me to a whole new level of horror that I was completely oblivious to.
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My Chinese family experienced first hand the horrors. They forgave but were marked forever by what they experienced.

I think there's a film in there somewhere but I suspect Coppola's already done some of it.
 
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