Whats on the horizon?

V

Vows

Before I make my $4000 purchase for the camera, what is going to change to make things better? I was sold on the Black Magic, but all these delays, and I would like to use it in my business. So I look to nikon, but reading the rumors, the new body won't have any significant video improvements. Alright, I make my purchase, but all this equipment is already a year old. I read of the moire problems, i am concerned wether a DSLR can make me the movie I want? Imput please. Shouldn't their be improvements every 3 months, and why are people still buying video only cameras?
Thanks
Vows
 
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Nothing is going to change in the market of $4,000.

Blackmagic is going to be the best camera you can get for that kind of money, regardless of delays. Many are now receiving their shipments, albeit more than 6 months after expected delivery. If you order now, you may be waiting for another 6 months.

DSLRs are stills cameras. The video aspect of a DSLR was initially intended for those such as journalists who are out in the field to capture small snippets of video as well their photos. Low budget filmmaking was perhaps sort of an unexpected side effect. The majority of the DSLR market is stills shooters. Both Canon and Panasonic have released their 'answers' to the DSLR vs moviemaking conundrum - Panasonic with the AF101, Canon with the Cx00 and 1Dc.

Why would improvements come every three months, alienating a user base who purchased a brand new camera 12 weeks beforehand. If your user base was primarily stills shooters, why would you spend most of your R&D time and budget on video improvements? If you only planned on shooting video, why would you buy a camera that's mostly focussed on shooting stills?

If you want something you'll be able to upgrade as technology moves on, get an Epic or a Scarlet.

$4,000 seems like a lot of money, but compared to options such as the Epic, Alexa, etc. it's practically nothing. You can't expect to get a RED image for the cost of a 5DmkIII.

Many shoot on 5Ds and Nikon bodies. There are inherent issues, but if you don't have the money for anything bigger and better, you have to work around it.
 
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jax_rox said:
...The majority of the DSLR market is stills shooters. Both Canon and Panasonic have released their 'answers' to the DSLR vs moviemaking conundrum - Panasonic with the AF101, Canon with the Cx00 and 1Dc...
Click to expand...

Let's not forget Sony and the FSx00.

Vows - there are a couple of RAW competitors to the BMCC on the horizon at your price point, the Digital Bolex and KineRAW Mini.

That said, if the Digital Bolex and KineRAW Mini ever ship, it is likely to be far, far in the future.

If you have a project to shoot and don't want to wait for the RAW cameras to ship, you can get a used Sony FS100 with the 18-200 lens for $3910.48 at Amazon - or for $3500 body only on eBay (as of this posting).

People are doing great work with this camera:

Music video:

http://vimeo.com/21366307

Narrative:

http://vimeo.com/49940461

Wedding film promo:

http://vimeo.com/29769802

Good luck!,

Bill
 
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Again Thanks

I thought that maybe dslr video was a secondary function, but everyone makes it sounds as if it were perfectly suitable for a ind. feature. What is all this concern of noise at low light levels, my film is on a set with quality light, is everyone shooting in a closet? There are alot of cameras in the $45oo-$6000 range, I looked at the sites for the bolex and kin, sounds wonderful. Have they had cameras out recently? I wanted a bolex in college, my point is, reading about that sony, footage looked good, but that camera came out nearly two years ago? I don't need earthbreaking cutting edge, but I think companies can continue to improve more.
Thanks
Vows
 
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Vows said:
I thought that maybe dslr video was a secondary function, but everyone makes it sounds as if it were perfectly suitable for a ind. feature. What is all this concern of noise at low light levels, my film is on a set with quality light, is everyone shooting in a closet? There are alot of cameras in the $45oo-$6000 range, I looked at the sites for the bolex and kin, sounds wonderful. Have they had cameras out recently? I wanted a bolex in college, my point is, reading about that sony, footage looked good, but that camera came out nearly two years ago? I don't need earthbreaking cutting edge, but I think companies can continue to improve more.
Thanks
Vows
Click to expand...

DSLR video is a secondary function, but that's not to say you can't shoot a movie on it. Many like DSLRs because of it's low light performance, often thinking good low light performance means they don't need to light. Unfortunately, these people haven't yet made the connection that lighting =/= just getting an exposure.

The digi Bolex is yet to ship, and I can't find any information on when it exactly will be shipping. The BMCC is currently shipping, albeit very slowly.

The Sony FS100 is a two year old camera, but keep in mind that Sony have been bringing out cameras much more recently, just not in the price range you're looking at. Sony have brought out the FS700, F5 and F55, all major improvements over the FS100 (though the F5 and F55 are more improvements over the F3), they're just not in the $4-6k price range.
 
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Does wrapping the plural eyes program with D800 Digital SLR Camera Video Kit, nikon's way of staying relevant to me.

I am thankful for all this insight, when I look at the videos online from these camaras, I realize how good they all are. I went to college on Super8. I balance my thought with my generation's passion for nikon, and I would like to shoot my most important project with lens' I used in college and throught my career. All this video looks damn good to me, but I do see
a difference, they are slight and sometimes they are great. But, for most, for people like me the choices are amazing.

Because my film takes place in the 90's, that so called cinema look is the only thing I need, not 12 step dynamic range.

I want, sharp video(thats on the cameraman and lens) and I want rich color inside a wedding reception set. What is my best choice?
Thanks Vows
 
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Vows said:
I am thankful for all this insight, when I look at the videos online from these camaras, I realize how good they all are. I went to college on Super8. I balance my thought with my generation's passion for nikon, and I would like to shoot my most important project with lens' I used in college and throught my career. All this video looks damn good to me, but I do see
a difference, they are slight and sometimes they are great. But, for most, for people like me the choices are amazing.
Click to expand...
Digital is certainly a great tool, and each camera is somewhat like a film stock - each has their own look and quirks.

Because my film takes place in the 90's, that so called cinema look is the only thing I need, not 12 step dynamic range.
Click to expand...
The 'cinema look' comes less from the camera and lens and moreso from the lighting, prodcution design, acting, directing, sound etc.
THe camera and lens can certainly help (ie the image from an Alexa looks certainly more 'filmic' than that of a DSLR) but it's not the most important aspect.

I want, sharp video(thats on the cameraman and lens) and I want rich color inside a wedding reception set. What is my best choice?
Click to expand...

Rich colours with a '90s feel about it? How about S16 colour reversal? ;)

How long is your shoot, and do you have to purchase? Here, you could buy a DSLR with support equipment and a decent lens or two for ~$6,000 or you could rent a RED Scarlet complete kit incl. 4-set of Zeiss CP.2s for two weeks for $5,000.


You mentioned in your OP that you were buying for a business. Doing so is different to choosing a camera for a film, at least IMO. For a business (unless it's rentals, I guess), I personally believe that you shouldn't make a purchase unless you have the cashflow to support such a purchase - ie, you could buy a 5DmkIII now and then once you have the cashflow to support a purchase of say a Sony F5, you do that then. There's no point taking a loan out to buy an F5 if you don't know if you're even going to make your money back.
For now, you just need a camera to get you working.
 
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I thought it would be great to get a new dslr for my studio. I am due for one now. I have a friend who owns the canon 5d, he said I could borrow it for the summer and learn it for the shoot in December. But, for a project I've been working for 10 years, I don't want some one else's stuff. I rented equipmnent for an ill fated attempt 4 years ago, renting puts such pressure on everything. But then I could spend the money elsewhere, but for now, I can spend $5500 on the camera part of my budget, that what was planned. Your Idea.
Thanks Vows
 
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"I went to college on Super8..."

Interesting that you would say that. I started on Super 8 at film school 35 years ago as well - and dreamt of owning Bolexes for independent movies and Nikons for stills. Sadly, I couldn't afford them back then.

You can use your Nikon lenses on many of the cameras we've talked about, so that's really not the issue. And neither is low light sensitivity. But, in addition to the frame rate, shutter speed and depth of field control you get from DSLRs and modern large sensor camcorders, the two things that will make your movie look "cinematic" are:

- resolution and, yes
- dynamic range

35mm film (which is what we are trying to mimic, if we want 'cinematic' images) has about 2K of projected resolution and about 14 to 15 stops of dynamic range. The BlackMagic Cinema Camera is the only currently available camera in your price range that comes close to these numbers.

That said, you can adapt your Nikon lenses to the EF mount BMCC with this simple adapter. I used an adapter like this to mount my Nikkors on a Canon EOS camera. It works.

Here is a picture from a BMCC shooter (not me) of a Nikkor 28-70 f2.8 on the BMCC:


file.php


Here is what shooters are doing with this camera:

"The Ride to Fame" (narrative short)

http://vimeo.com/56191630

"Texting is Dangerous" (narrative short)

http://vimeo.com/48861294

"A Week with the BMC" (travel/mood piece)

http://vimeo.com/49272792


It is probably easier to buy a BMCC and adapt your lenses than to wait for Nikon to make a moire-free 2.5K camera :)

If you are willing to pay a little more than then the $2995 list price, there are a few available on eBay, to include this one for $4444.

Good luck with your project,

Bill
 
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35mm film has more than 2k of projected resolution, but that's an argument for another day.

I'm no big fan of the BMCC, but in the price range it's pretty much unbeatable for what you get, especially considering it's ~the same cost as a 5D.

If you don't want to wait, and don't want to use a DSLR, then I think renting is your only viable option in that price range..

You coudl probably rent a Sony F35 with a Pix, Ninja or Ki production kit even cheaper - the value has dropped right out of the F35 and there are rental houses that have them just sitting around..
 
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$4000 is just shy of the territory (except the BMDCC, which isn't currently available) but basically at that price point the 3 choices, imo, are the fs100, the c100, or the bmdcc. My parameters are probably different from yours, as I am looking at gear which I can use as an owner/operator rather than as an indie director. That means certain parameters have to be met.

Sadly, if I want to remain in the "digital cinema" space (which I do) I have to settle for something without any sort of true time code support. The buy-in there seems to be in the $15K range with the F3, the c300, and maybe the Scarlet, but I'm not really considering RED to be a viable purchase option. Not out of any specific dislike, but that I can think of 3 Scarlets and 2 Epics in my area that are sitting mostly idle off the top of my head. They're just everywhere around here - stupid easy to rent - and honestly I probably won't be seeing jobs at that level for a while yet anyway.

So that brings us back to the c100/FS100/BMDCC consideration. All of which have their plus and minus sides, and all of which are very good tools. The question is what trade-offs are you willing to manage? Can you handle doing dual system audio nearly all the time? BMDCC's mic inputs aren't getting the best press right now, but at least you can go straight from XLR into the camera with a simple cable. Both the Sony and the Canon are going to have more robust in-camera audio support, which is no big deal if all one does is narrative work where dual system audio is fine. Corporate work, doc shooting, that can be more problematic. Of course the BMDCC gives you the tasty 12-bit RAW 2.5K workflow, but on the other hand it gives you the post production overhead of that tasty 12-bit RAW 2.5K workflow.

It's all about just picking the one that suits your purpose, fits your budget, has an image that you suits your aesthetic, and is available when you need it to arrive.
 
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Vows said:
why are people still buying video only cameras?
Click to expand...

Because if you want to shoot video, then the best tool for the job is a video camera. Video cameras can start recording and won't quit until they run out of tape, storage or battery, not because their image processors started getting too hot or the file was too big. Video cameras have a form factor that's more conducive to filming rather than taking stills.

And most video cameras, while not global shutters at that price, have faster scan times than the cameras, so less rolling shutter.

For all I like the specs of the BMCC, except for the sensor (more on that later) the internal only battery is a deal killer for me. I'd immediately want to buy at least two external batteries, probably adding another $600 on the price.

Metabones has an adapter for the FS-100 (well, Sony E-mount) that takes a full-frame lens (EF only at this point I think) and focuses it ever so slightly on the sensor, returning the full frame DoF & cropping (or lack thereof) and adding a full extra stop of light. I had heard there was possibly talk about doing a similar thing with the 4/3 BMCC sensor, which would remove the sensor size issues. But again, that'd add another $600 to the price.

But, even after all that, I still really like the FS-100 and I'd probably buy that if I were buying now. I'm personally hoping to be ready to get in on the crowdfunding for the Axiom camera, when they start it:
http://axiom.apertus.org/

CraigL
 
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In my film I would like to shoot some slow motion. Looking at that sony 700, I would like that. What does filmware update mean? Do I consider throwing in a 35hundred more for this camera?
Thanks
Vows
 
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