What if Forrest Gump was a Space Alien?

[Birdman]

What if Forrest Gump was a Space Alien?

Before we go any further, let's all take a ride in the Way-back machine to 1951. "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

A space alien named "Klaatu" lands on Earth to deliver a warning. We have become far to violent and aggressive. There is fear that our violence and primitive nature may become a threat to other civilizations throughout the universe. He leaves an indestructible robot behind to rule over us and make sure we get our act together, because if we don't, ...........then Earth will be destroyed.

...That arrogant, fucking bastard! "Klaatu Barada FuckYou!"

Fast forward to 1994 "Forrest Gump"

Here we have a man with a rather sub-IQ intelligence level. He's not smart at all. He's socially lacking and oblivious to the human condition we face in everyday life. Forrest could easily be perceived as an "idiot". But actually, he's an "idiot savant".

He excels in everything he does. Give him a rifle, and he'll assemble it in seconds flat. Give him a ping pong ball, he'll keep six of them going at once. Tell him, "Run, Forrest, run!" and he'll run 20 Marathons. Put him in a war, he'll come back with the Congressional Medal of Honor. Give him a shrimp business, he'll end up a millionaire. The guy is simply beyond belief! He has REMARKABLE skills that no normal human being could ever possess. You can toss him in the middle of a Black Panther's meeting along with Anti-war activists while Vietnam soldiers are scurrying around willy-nilly ...and the only thing he can add to the mix is, "Sorry I had a fight in the middle of your Black Panther Party" because a man should never hit a woman.

Yeah, we ALL LOVED Forrest Gump ....but why?

Because here we have a very simple, "naïve" character who is lost in a strange world he doesn't understand. He struggles to fit in and tries his best to do what he's supposed to. He has this "inner peace", innocence and purity that we all don't seem to have. ...We love him for that!

Another reason we loved Forrest Gump is because he poses no threat to us. Despite his incredible physical capabilities, endurance, purity and virtue ...at the end of the day ...we're still dealing with a moron. Any one of us can walk up to Forrest Gump and feel "comfortable". He has the skills of a superhero, yet we never have to worry about him being smarter than us. He'll never put you on the spot with a tough question. You'll never have to worry that you're being judged by a higher level of being. It's just dumb old Forrest Gump, and we all love him.

But what if he were a space alien? What if Forrest Gump was actually a highly-intelligent alien from another world millions of light years away from Earth who has traveled across the universe to visit our primitive, evil planet? What if he was able to do all of those 'special things" because he was a far more advanced creature ...he just doesn't understand why humans are the way that they are. He "seems" like an idiot, ...but inside he sees our world as it really is. ....He knows! He's seen the universe. He's been to places you could never imagine. Seen sights you could never comprehend. His civilization was exploring the universe while we were still whacking wooly mammoths in the head for food.

If Forrest Gump was a space alien .....we would HATE HIM!

How dare this bastard come to our planet and judge us? Who the hell does he think he is? Why doesn't he go back to his own fucking world, because we don't need his sorry ass around here showing us all how fucked up our world is. He should try walking a mile in MY shoes! What does HE know about losing a job? ...losing a family? Having to struggle every fucking day trying to scrape up enough money to pay the bills.

He can just whisk away on a fancy spaceship whenever the hell he wants to. I'm stuck here on this planet whether I like it or not ...so fuck'im!

You can't just walk up to Forrest Gump the "Space Alien". He might ask you a question far beyond your level of understanding. He may look inside you and see shit you don't like to be seen. We hate him! We hate everything about him and his perfect fucking untopian society and we want nothing to do with him.

============================

Remember the movie "Powder"?

Kid gets zapped at birth by a lightening bolt and ends up being phenomenally intelligent with super-human abilities. The police are afraid of him. School officials fear him. His classmates hate and mock him. We love him, though, because deep down inside we saw him as just a normal kid who got a raw deal in life.

But the truth is that we "hate what we fear" and "we hate what is more intelligent than us"...so people hated Powder. Let's beat him up! Let's humiliate him! Let's arrest him and take him away! ....Let's treat him like that alien fuck, Forrest Gump!

It all goes back to 1951 when that rat bastard "Klaatu" flew his sorry ass over to our planet and tried to lecture us all on how "bad" we are. Well, .....fuck him, too!

My point in all of this is that the "Space Alien" isn't allowed to experience "human emotions" or "Human Interaction" like other characters do. If you try this it will be declared "Cliché" or "Trope". Other characters are allowed to do this, but not space aliens. We "allow" Tom Cruise to explore the life of a Samurai. We "allow" Robert De Niro to explore and assimilate into a South American Indian Tribe ...but in NO WAY do we allow a "Space Alien" to assimilate into our world.

We're sick and tired of their sorry asses standing in judgment of our world and we CERTAINLY don't want to watch a movie showing another one of these silly space bastards trying to do so!

-Birdman

 

[maz]

Okay, here's my point on this. I'm not expecting anyone to Google out links to alien characters who ask questions where they are "confused". I know people don't want to waste time doing this, but let's take the #1 purported "Alien Question" that I see posted in the threads in citing "Cliché". You posted one version and I've seen the latter one also:

"So love feels like this?"

"So you call this love?"

...Now, I'll bet you dollars to donuts that neither of these lines were ever spoken by an alien in any movie ...EVER! I'll bet you this line was made up as a way to express the alien character cliché. So, in essence, the alien character has been branded as "cliché" without ever really becoming a cliché character.

OK, I'll bite.

You are likely 100% right on that, but that's only because the generic (some would say lazy) line I used as a catch-all for the entire trope/cliche is based on one from the tedious TV show Star Trek.

This covers a lot of further examples in all media (including examples where the cliche/trope is satirised), while no pop culture cliche is truly cliche until it's had this done to it


(Birdman: I know you never read it when I write this but, just to reiterate once again, there is nothing wrong with a cliche or a trope as long as you know what you're doing with it. I'm a big fan of a lot of them myself. This particular one I find quite boring, but that doesn't mean anybody else will/should/must. Peace out.)

 

[Birdman]

Sometimes the audience wants a "cliche" plot device but they want it done well. ......Even if the script is written without cliche elements, they can be thrown in by a director or sometimes an actor hired to bring a character to life .....As writers, we do the best we can to create solid driving stories with concise, relevant dialogue. How that is translated to the screen is often out of our hands.

Maz,

I've isolated a few of FSF's points in his last post as I'm going to use them in a response to you. I hope you know that this is all meant in "humor" and you are obviously free to feel however you choose.

I'm going to take a single quote from your follow-up post regarding my script and use it to make my point:

The script excerpt was decent too, although that whole "is this what you humans call love?" alien cliche tends to grate on me a bit when it's played straight like here. Still well written enough (loved the Scarface callout) and the dialogue is nice.

Okay, I've bolded two key phrases you made in your first follow-up quote:

(1) I have a pretty, sexy space alien asking William about why humans reverse-phrase statements prior to doing battle. In other words, "Why come off as being friendly if you plan on killing that person". My space alien asked this question with regard to Tony Montana's “Seh allo to mah lil’ friend.” line. She wasn't asking about love, or peace, or any "common" human emotion. She was asking about an apparent "dislogic" in phrasing. Ironically, about 40 pages later she's making Tony Montana look like an "Anger Management Therapist" as she runs around whacking people with nunchuka and her Beretta.

I GUARANTEE you there has never been a peace-loving alien who ends up using Tony Montana as a "Role Model." That is 100% virgin territory for a space alien!

(2) You LOVE Tony Montana. You used the phrase "loved the Scarface callout". Those are your OWN WORDS! Now, “Seh allo to mah lil’ friend.” has been used NUMEROUS times in other movies. Wesley Snipes said it in "Demolition Man". It even showed up in Breaking Bad. If you have a large-gun-wielding testosterone-soaked movie out there, there's a good chance someone in the movie will say, “Seh allo to mah lil’ friend.” right before that whack someone. That scene and that quote may possible be the most 100% all-time "cliché phrase" ever used in the movie industry!

So let's break it down:

(1) When it comes to probably the most highly-used cliché phrase in the movie industry, “Seh allo to mah lil’ friend.” said by countless actors since the 1970's all honoring our infamous disco-era drug lord. You LOVE IT! And how was the cliché phrase used? I had a macho guy holding up a rifle and say the quote ...the exact same way as EVERY OTHER ACTOR has done while using that same quote! And what's Maz's overall take on it? ....You LOVE IT! Here's what you said:

(loved the Scarface callout)

That quote gives you the fealing of "love", the highest human emotion obtainable, something we all seek and somehow hope to find in our miserable lives.

(2) When it comes to my "Space Alien" ASKING A QUESTION about the very same mega-cliche movie quote, guaranteed 100% VIRGIN TERRITORY in the alien character persona, ... to the point where she will ultimately end up rivaling Tony Montana, himself, 50 pages later, ...how does Maz feel about it?

although that whole "is this what you humans call love?" alien cliche tends to grate on me

So my pretty little Space Alien asking a question about the cliché quote that you so love is tantamount to me dragging a CHEESE GRATER back and forth across your forearm flesh as you writhe in horrible agony!


.............................Explain yourself, Maz!

-Birdman

 

[maz]

Maz,

I've isolated a few of FSF's points in his last post as I'm going to use them in a response to you. I hope you know that this is all meant in "humor" and you are obviously free to feel however you choose.

I'm going to take a single quote from your follow-up post regarding my script and use it to make my point:



Okay, I've bolded two key phrases you made in your first follow-up quote:

(1) I have a pretty, sexy space alien asking William about why humans reverse-phrase statements prior to doing battle. In other words, "Why come off as being friendly if you plan on killing that person". My space alien asked this question with regard to Tony Montana's “Seh allo to mah lil’ friend.” line. She wasn't asking about love, or peace, or any "common" human emotion. She was asking about an apparent "dislogic" in phrasing. Ironically, about 40 pages later she's making Tony Montana look like an "Anger Management Therapist" as she runs around whacking people with nunchuka and her Beretta.

I GUARANTEE you there has never been a peace-loving alien who ends up using Tony Montana as a "Role Model." That is 100% virgin territory for a space alien!

(2) You LOVE Tony Montana. You used the phrase "loved the Scarface callout". Those are your OWN WORDS! Now, “Seh allo to mah lil’ friend.” has been used NUMEROUS times in other movies. Wesley Snipes said it in "Demolition Man". It even showed up in Breaking Bad. If you have a large-gun-wielding testosterone-soaked movie out there, there's a good chance someone in the movie will say, “Seh allo to mah lil’ friend.” right before that whack someone. That scene and that quote may possible be the most 100% all-time "cliché phrase" ever used in the movie industry!

So let's break it down:

(1) When it comes to probably the most highly-used cliché phrase in the movie industry, “Seh allo to mah lil’ friend.” said by countless actors since the 1970's all honoring our infamous disco-era drug lord. You LOVE IT! And how was the cliché phrase used? I had a macho guy holding up a rifle and say the quote ...the exact same way as EVERY OTHER ACTOR has done while using that same quote! And what's Maz's overall take on it? ....You LOVE IT! Here's what you said:



That quote gives you the fealing of "love", the highest human emotion obtainable, something we all seek and somehow hope to find in our miserable lives.

(2) When it comes to my "Space Alien" ASKING A QUESTION about the very same mega-cliche movie quote, guaranteed 100% VIRGIN TERRITORY in the alien character persona, ... to the point where she will ultimately end up rivaling Tony Montana, himself, 50 pages later, ...how does Maz feel about it?




So my pretty little Space Alien asking a question about the cliché quote that you so love is tantamount to me dragging a CHEESE GRATER back and forth across your forearm flesh as you writhe in horrible agony!


.............................Explain yourself, Maz!

-Birdman

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or you genuinely don't get it, but I'll start with a confession: I have never seen Scarface. I have no idea who Tony Montana is. The only reason I know that particular quote is from other movies/TV shows where that quote is referenced as loving homage to that movie. It can be played straight (someone with a big gun) or ironic (someone wielding a feeble weapon), but it's so obviously a quote from another movie that it is not in itself a cliche, although its use can be.

What is the purpose of using that quote in dialogue? It's an efficient shorthand for a well-known cultural reference. It gives a little character insight into the kind of films the speaker likes, and so on. But mainly it's used because it's a well-loved cultural touchstone (apparently) and a gold standard for lone badassdom. Breaking Bad used it in an excellent way: Vince Gilligan used the movie in the logline for the show, and the line itself only featured in the show via the film itself on a TV, but its 'spirit' runs throughout the show. So it says to the audience: "you know that famous scene in Scarface? Well don't get out of your seat, as this show will turn it up to 11!" The reason I "loved" it in your extract was because I assumed it was being used in a similar way.

Mainly, though, it's a single line. It doesn't define a character or a section of a show/movie. It's just a little shorthand that will often make people smile (even people like me who've never seen the film).

The "naive alien" trope, on the other hand, is (potentially) a significant part of a character's story and arc, and it's one which is quite common. That's not in itself a problem, and I'm sure lots of people have no problem with it; I happen to be bored by it, but I'm nobody important. It's a personal opinion, and you should attach no more weight to it than that. FSF is perfectly correct on this: Hollywood movies are full of cliches, and that's fine, as long as there's more to the movie than them. As I said before (paraphrasing the great Terry Pratchett), cliches are the nuts and bolts of expression. As long as your creation is more than just the nuts and bolts, it's not an issue.

And yes, I have no idea if there's a story of a peace-loving alien becoming Tony Montana-inspired queen of the universe, but that whole idea in general is just another trope/cliche (the quiet, gentle character who is or becomes a total badass). Once again, see Breaking Bad, and there are many more. It happens to be a trope I really like, but still.

None of this is necessarily a problem for your script. Complete originality is impossible, and there are only so many stories in the world. Just try to tell yours as well as you can.

Peas out.

 

[mad_hatter]

I GUARANTEE you there has never been a peace-loving alien who ends up using Tony Montana as a "Role Model." That is 100% virgin territory for a space alien!

Sounds quite similar to the android in "Jason X". Of course, she wasn't an alien, so it's absolutely, 100% definitely not the same thing.


And I agree with Maz, a quote from another movie is not cliche, no matter how many times it's reused. It can't be. It's a pop culture reference.


But, regardless, there's nothing wrong with cliché.



(Oh... I'd also say that those very famous quotes from "Dirty Harry" and "Taxi Driver" are far better known than any quote from "Scarface".)

 

[Birdman]

(Oh... I'd also say that those very famous quotes from "Dirty Harry" and "Taxi Driver" are far better known than any quote from "Scarface".)

Mr. Hatter;

(LINK)


1. "I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore."

2. "May the force be with you."

3. "Houston, we have a problem."

4. "Say hello to my little friend."

-Birdman

P.S. On a little side note, the #2 quote actually has it's own "day" associated with it. It's "May 4th" ..."May the 4th be with you".

 

[mad_hatter]

Hmmm....

I wonder where Sakira Del Rosario of "The Celebrity Cafe" got her data from?

 

[mad_hatter]

And just for fun, I Googled most quoted movies and found the AFI's "100 years, 100 quotes".

Dirty Harry is at #6 (and #51, incidentally). Taxi Driver came in at #10.

Scarface made it all the way to.... #61.


Personally, I consider the AFI to be a more reliable source than "The Celebrity Cafe".

 

[Birdman]

The "naive alien" trope, on the other hand, is (potentially) a significant part of a character's story and arc, and it's one which is quite common. That's not in itself a problem, and I'm sure lots of people have no problem with it; I happen to be bored by it, but I'm nobody important. It's a personal opinion, and you should attach no more weight to it than that.

I think you're misunderstanding the word "cliche", and assigning it a necessarily perjorative meaning. It doesn't work that way for me. Cliches are cliches for a reason, because they are efficient and effective ways of conveying a point. They are the nuts and bolts of expression, and as long as the nuts and bolts don't make up too much of what you're creating, it's not an issue. I just happen to find this particular cliche a little tired.

However, I also said that the 'naive alien' cliche/trope is sometimes used in a fresh, original way, but too often it's a crutch in place of proper character development. Having not read your script, I have no idea which applies, so the only reason I mentioned it was so that you might be aware of it.

Then there are matters of style (such as cliches and tropes) where I make it clear that it's a personal opinion, but that if I'm bothered by it there is a fair chance other people may be (and those people may have the power actually to 'ping' your script).

I wasn't asking for a debate, I just highlighted a few minor things to maybe fix, and a single bigger thing that may or may not turn out to be a problem.

Maz,

I pulled these quotes from your many responses to make this last point, and then I'll probably just have to give up. Yes, you are clearly saying this is your "opinion", but you are also saying people in this industry may feel the same way as you ...and they have the power to "ping" my script. That is a "warning" from you. You are essentially saying, "If Maz feels this way, probably others do also".

You CLEARLY DO NOT LIKE the alien character. You broad-brush label it as "Naive" from the very start. The alien must PROVE to you that it is not "naïve". If any alien character starts out a sentence to an Earthling with the word "Why...?" a red flag instantly goes up from Maz.

I'm giving the following to you as MY own personal opinion. This is MY advice to you:

Let's say I don't like the "Pirate Character". I feel he is "Cliché". I'm tired of the "Shiver me timbers"... The "Fifteen men on a dead man's chest"... and the "Arrrr, Matey!" trope. All they do is float around on the ocean chasing people with their dark, sinister ships while drinking, enjoying far too much merriment and looking around for treasure maps (with the obligatory parrot on their shoulder).

So now someone posts up their new Screenplay they just wrote for the movie, "Pirates of The Caribbean" and show some dialogue between his character "Captain Jack Sparrow" and one of his crew mates.

Would it really be fair for me to voice my personal opinion about the "Pirate Character", call him "Cliché", "Boring", and "Trope"? Is it fair to that Screenplay writer to tell him "Other more powerful people in the movie industry may not like "Pirate Characters" either, ...so be warned!"

If I'm not a "fan" of pirate characters, then I have a personal opinion that shouldn't be used in critiquing someone's creativity.

Now, I personally don't like "Hobbits". I have absolutely ZERO interest in these tiny little gnome-like creatures with swollen feets and I don't really care if they find whatever they are looking for. But if someone posted up a Screenplay about a "Hobbit Character" ...I'm NOT going to try to influence that writer to change their direction because "I think they are boring" ...and... "Some people within the Hollywood power don't like the swollen-footed Hobbit trope either".


Yeah, there may be "others" out there that hate the alien character and find them boring. True, they may have the power to "ping" my script as a result of their personal bias. You HAVE taught me one thing by your responses regarding the "alien Character" and that is that Hollywood is jam packed with highly-opinionated people with pre-determined mindsets.

What I "hope" for is that whomever ends up with my script is not like you. I'm hoping that the person reading my script is NOT focused on the fact that my Alien Character asked a "question", ...but rather this person is more focused on what my alien character does with the information found within the answers she receives.


--------------------------------------

And for the record:


Word Origin & History:

ROTARY:

1731, from M.L. rotarius "pertaining to wheels," from L. rota "wheel," from PIE base *roto- "to run, to turn, to roll" (cf. Skt. rathah "car, chariot;" Avestan ratho; Lith. ratas "wheel," ritu "I roll;" O.H.G. rad, Ger. Rad, Du. rad, O.Fris. reth, O.S. rath, O.Ir. roth, Welsh rhod "carriage wheel").

And should you decide to join the "Rotary Car Club", ...Here's the LINK

-Birdman

 

[Birdman]

Hatter, You'll just keep fighting until the bitter end, won't ya? You would keep searching and searching until you found a Dirty Harry quote that made it higher than mine and, of course, ...marginalize any source I find along the way. ...You did the exact same thing in my other thread.

I've encountered people like you many times in other areas of life. You never really contribute anything. It's never about whatever point is trying to be made. It's always about whether or not you are "one percentage point" higher than whoever you are arguing with.


...so knock yourself out, guy!

-Birdman

 

[maz]

Maz,

I pulled these quotes from your many responses to make this last point, and then I'll probably just have to give up. Yes, you are clearly saying this is your "opinion", but you are also saying people in this industry may feel the same way as you ...and they have the power to "ping" my script. That is a "warning" from you. You are essentially saying, "If Maz feels this way, probably others do also".

Wrong. I'm saying that I don't like it, others may or may not. There are more than enough movies that use this trope to suggest that I'm very much in the minority.

You CLEARLY DO NOT LIKE the alien character. You broad-brush label it as "Naive" from the very start. The alien must PROVE to you that it is not "naïve". If any alien character starts out a sentence to an Earthling with the word "Why...?" a red flag instantly goes up from Maz.

Wrong. I don't like the trope of an alien who is naive (not stupid, but naive: unaware and unfamiliar with the environment), and especially when this is played for laughs. I have no opinion one way or the other on your character. I really don't care either way. She might be a fantastic character, or she might not be. I have no opinion whatsoever. I haven't read the damn script. Kindly refrain from ascribing opinions to me I do not hold.

I'm giving the following to you as MY own personal opinion. This is MY advice to you:

Let's say I don't like the "Pirate Character". I feel he is "Cliché". I'm tired of the "Shiver me timbers"... The "Fifteen men on a dead man's chest"... and the "Arrrr, Matey!" trope. All they do is float around on the ocean chasing people with their dark, sinister ships while drinking, enjoying far too much merriment and looking around for treasure maps (with the obligatory parrot on their shoulder).

So now someone posts up their new Screenplay they just wrote for the movie, "Pirates of The Caribbean" and show some dialogue between his character "Captain Jack Sparrow" and one of his crew mates.

Would it really be fair for me to voice my personal opinion about the "Pirate Character", call him "Cliché", "Boring", and "Trope"? Is it fair to that Screenplay writer to tell him "Other more powerful people in the movie industry may not like "Pirate Characters" either, ...so be warned!"

If I'm not a "fan" of pirate characters, then I have a personal opinion that shouldn't be used in critiquing someone's creativity.

Pirates are a good example. There are fun things to be done with subverting the familiar tropes of pirate stories. The familiar tropes are quite worn and tired too, but movies still get made around them. That's fine. People obviously feel comfortable with them, and really the tropes are all we have with pirates. If you read the script and don't like pirates, just say "I'll pass, I don't like pirates". I like sci-fi movies, and find annoying cliches an irritation.

Now, my turn for a hypothetical: let's say your movie gets made, and is played to test audiences. Now suppose Bob is in that test audience. Bob loves sci-fi movies, and aliens, and he eagerly watches this new movie from a cool new writer. After watching he comments that there were lots of good things about the movie, but the character development was quite cliched. Bob is a member of your target audience: would your response be his comments are a "personal opinion that shouldn't be used in critiquing someone's creativity. "

I'm just a fan of good stories and good writing. I don't watch as many movies as I'd like to, but I'm also a viewer of films. You can feel free to ignore my views, but you'd be a little foolish to completely disregard them. Learn to take criticism.

Now, I personally don't like "Hobbits". I have absolutely ZERO interest in these tiny little gnome-like creatures with swollen feets and I don't really care if they find whatever they are looking for. But if someone posted up a Screenplay about a "Hobbit Character" ...I'm NOT going to try to influence that writer to change their direction because "I think they are boring" ...and... "Some people within the Hollywood power don't like the swollen-footed Hobbit trope either".

Hobbits are not a trope. One man created hobbits, wrote the stories around them, and anyone trying to create a film about hobbits would be better warned of the imminent lawsuit from the Tolkien estate/New Line etc. If someone tries to create an official film about hobbits, then they already exist in a fully-fleshed out form in Tolkien's writing and the films already made. It really doesn't matter if you find them boring or not.

Now if what you find boring are the tropes in fantasy films, then I agree entirely. But that's another conversation, and if a particular storyline or character arc is cliched then you would be doing the writer a disservice not to point that out.

Yeah, there may be "others" out there that hate the alien character and find them boring. True, they may have the power to "ping" my script as a result of their personal bias. You HAVE taught me one thing by your responses regarding the "alien Character" and that is that Hollywood is jam packed with highly-opinionated people with pre-determined mindsets.

The very funniest thing about your replies, Birdman, is your constant insistence that I am somehow the dark face of "the industry" or Hollywood. I am about as far from that as is possible.

The other funny thing is the determined way you continue to ignore what I actually write, and instead set up straw man after straw man to attack me with. Well, if it gives you pleasure, let loose the straw birds of war

What I "hope" for is that whomever ends up with my script is not like you. I'm hoping that the person reading my script is NOT focused on the fact that my Alien Character asked a "question", ...but rather this person is more focused on what my alien character does with the information found within the answers she receives.

I agree. That's exactly how I'd look at the character. But if I read the first X pages and the alien character was travelling on tracks along the naive alien cliche*, I don't think I'd get much further. Others who don't share my opinion would not have a problem reading on. Others who do share my opinon might not read on, and that would be a shame, as some may have the power to do something with it.

*However, I haven't read the damn script.

--------------------------------------

And for the record:


Word Origin & History:

ROTARY:

1731, from M.L. rotarius "pertaining to wheels," from L. rota "wheel," from PIE base *roto- "to run, to turn, to roll" (cf. Skt. rathah "car, chariot;" Avestan ratho; Lith. ratas "wheel," ritu "I roll;" O.H.G. rad, Ger. Rad, Du. rad, O.Fris. reth, O.S. rath, O.Ir. roth, Welsh rhod "carriage wheel").

And should you decide to join the "Rotary Car Club", ...Here's the LINK

My goodness, you're really scraping the barrel here. I love the way you ignore the actual contemporary definition on that same page... But fine, I concede. As long as you ensure that the alien consistently refers to tangential derivations in Sanskrit from the archaic Proto-Indo-European etymology of words rather than their current definition, then that's completely fine. There are some really weird etymologies in the English language, so good luck with that

Birdman, you really are, appropriately enough, a hoot

 

[Birdman]

Now, my turn for a hypothetical: let's say your movie gets made, and is played to test audiences. Now suppose Bob is in that test audience. Bob loves sci-fi movies, and aliens, and he eagerly watches this new movie from a cool new writer. After watching he comments that there were lots of good things about the movie, but the character development was quite cliched. Bob is a member of your target audience: would your response be his comments are a "personal opinion that shouldn't be used in critiquing someone's creativity. "

First, let's define "Character Arc":

"A character arc takes its form when a character starts the story off with a certain viewpoint and then through trials and tribulations, that viewpoint changes. Essentially, the arc is the emotional or psychological growth, transformation and development of your character. A positive change in a character leads to a happy ending. A negative change or no change in a character leads to a tragic ending."

Now, I HOPE you agree with this and don't have some new "special" definition that leads to an all-new debate.

So here's my take on Bob:

After "FADE IN" I have a simple, unknown, meaningless female Science Officer from a lost civilization that were the very first beings to ever enter into outer space. Her job is to scour endangered planets for rare botanical life forms and repopulate other more stable planets with these rare plants. A very simple life. She is non-violent, non-threatening and deplores any and all acts of violence and aggression.

By the time you reach "FADE OUT" she has totally screwed up planet Earth, disabled the worlds nuclear grid, hacked the Pentagon, hacked the Library of Congress, repositioned Earth's satellite grid, fried a $180M Titan Supercomputer, attacked an abusive father, stole a human child, and circumnavigated capture by an evil Marosian Extraction Team. She then makes her way back to her ship only to find she's been betrayed by her own people. She is completely alone. She beats the living shit out of Marosians who have infiltrated her ship with Nunchucka (that she made by hand) and went totally gangster on the remaining Marosians with her 9mm Beretta. She goes on a violent rampage and takes control of her own ship, eliminates the members of her species who betrayed her, constructs an all-new WARship and goes into battle with the evil, ruling Marosian empire and a 10-ship Imperial armada led by the self-proclaimed "ruler of the Universe". She uses all of the battle techniques she learned from Earth (and her man) to taunt and crush this evil armada with a 40 gigaton superbomb ...that he never saw coming. She ends up with her OWN armada made up of thousands of "freed civilization" starships that willingly follow their new Queen as she leads this armada back to an unsuspecting planet Earth.


...So of Bob is sitting somewhere near the back of the theater bitchin' and moanin' that my character asked a typical "naïve" alien question and she seemed "Cliché" along the way ...then there's just no pleasing Bob. ...Fuck him!



In order to get a character from one way of thinking to another, ...there has to be "change". The more dramatic the change (or the greater the amount of change needed) will obviously require the character to be closer to the opposite ends of the emotional spectrum. If you hit the "Cliche'" button just as soon as an Alien Character asks "Why...?" to a human, ...then you aren't worth the effort.

-Birdman

 

[maz]

First, let's define "Character Arc":

"A character arc takes its form when a character starts the story off with a certain viewpoint and then through trials and tribulations, that viewpoint changes. Essentially, the arc is the emotional or psychological growth, transformation and development of your character. A positive change in a character leads to a happy ending. A negative change or no change in a character leads to a tragic ending."

Now, I HOPE you agree with this and don't have some new "special" definition that leads to an all-new debate.

So here's my take on Bob:

After "FADE IN" I have a simple, unknown, meaningless female Science Officer from a lost civilization that were the very first beings to ever enter into outer space. Her job is to scour endangered planets for rare botanical life forms and repopulate other more stable planets with these rare plants. A very simple life. She is non-violent, non-threatening and deplores any and all acts of violence and aggression.

By the time you reach "FADE OUT" she has totally screwed up planet Earth, disabled the worlds nuclear grid, hacked the Pentagon, hacked the Library of Congress, repositioned Earth's satellite grid, fried a $180M Titan Supercomputer, attacked an abusive father, stole a human child, and circumnavigated capture by an evil Marosian Extraction Team. She then makes her way back to her ship only to find she's been betrayed by her own people. She is completely alone. She beats the living shit out of Marosians who have infiltrated her ship with Nunchucka (that she made by hand) and went totally gangster on the remaining Marosians with her 9mm Beretta. She goes on a violent rampage and takes control of her own ship, eliminates the members of her species who betrayed her, constructs an all-new WARship and goes into battle with the evil, ruling Marosian empire and a 10-ship Imperial armada led by the self-proclaimed "ruler of the Universe". She uses all of the battle techniques she learned from Earth (and her man) to taunt and crush this evil armada with a 40 gigaton superbomb ...that he never saw coming. She ends up with her OWN armada made up of thousands of "freed civilization" starships that willingly follow their new Queen as she leads this armada back to an unsuspecting planet Earth.


...So of Bob is sitting somewhere near the back of the theater bitchin' and moanin' that my character asked a typical "naïve" alien question and she seemed "Cliché" along the way ...then there's just no pleasing Bob. ...Fuck him!



In order to get a character from one way of thinking to another, ...there has to be "change". The more dramatic the change (or the greater the amount of change needed) will obviously require the character to be closer to the opposite ends of the emotional spectrum. If you hit the "Cliche'" button just as soon as an Alien Character asks "Why...?" to a human, ...then you aren't worth the effort.

-Birdman

I haven't read the damn script.

I know your alien is amazing, but we puny humans do not possess the power of telepathy. I made an observation based on 4 pages, and then hypothesised (not stated, not argued, not declared, just hypothesised) that if the rest of the script followed the normal trajectory of the trope, Bob might have such a complaint. In case you didn't realise, BOB HASN'T ACTUALLY SEEN YOUR FILM. He doesn't exist. He is a rhetorical device to counter your assertion that someone who likes a genre but is bored of certain tropes has no right or reason to complain.

And now I really am done with this endless circular straw man argument, amusing though it is. There is no cliche button. It exists only in your head. But cliches exist, and if you use one, then just be aware that you're using it. That's literally all I'm saying.

I only have one last thing to say: LEAVE BOB ALONE!

Pease out.

 

[Birdman]

Poor Bob. He's probably wondering how he got dragged into this.

He probably needs to lose the cliche button, get rid of his Boba Fett blow-up doll and hook up with a super-hot alien chic.

- Birdman

 

[mad_hatter]

You'll just keep fighting until the bitter end, won't ya?

Remind you of anyone?

You would keep searching and searching until you found a Dirty Harry quote that made it higher than mine and, of course, ...marginalize any source I find along the way.

I didn’t “search and search”. It was quite easy to find. Type “movie quotes” into Google… It’s the first thing that comes up. The “AFI’s 100 years, 100 quotes” would have been much easier to find than the seemingly random link you provided, which I can only assume you had to “search and search” for.

...You did the exact same thing in my other thread.

When? When I read the links that you provided? I had assumed that was what they were there for. And I didn’t marginalize anything. I only told you what they actually said... I had sort-of assumed that you’d misinterpreted them, having decided to do the opposite. I was actually trying to be helpful (in an, admittedly, snarky kind-of way (that’s my bad)).

I've encountered people like you many times in other areas of life. You never really contribute anything. It's never about whatever point is trying to be made.

Sorry. What was the point you were trying to make then, when you started going on about “Scarface” being the most famous movie quote of all time?

Also, just to clarify, the reason I put my disagreement with this at the very bottom of the post, in brackets, with extra space between it and the rest of the post, was to try and separate it from the point that I had actually tried to make. It was an aside. It really didn’t matter. You’re the one who chose to focus on that, rather than the point being made, and drag it out into your next post.


Anyway, the “naïve alien” or “emotionless alien” is a cliché. If you’re character is a cliché, that’s fine. If you character starts of as a cliché, then transcends the cliché, that’s great. But recognising the cliché is important. You just don’t want your cliché character remaining cliché for too long. That’s when it’ll get boring; that’s when people will switch off.

 

[Birdman]

Mr. Hatter,

Wow! You have absolutely no idea the point I'm making with the word "their" do ya?

No, I really don’t.

The question you posed to me, makes it sound as though you believe that there is some group of people who would consider the use of “their” in place of “there” to be acceptable. I promise you, there’s not.

Could you please explain your point, instead of posing it as an impossible task?

...The reason you didn't understand my point was because your world was totally consumed with reducing 50% down to 20%. That was your primary focus and your only goal. Because of that kind of mentality you totally miss the points that people are trying to make to you. As stated before, I've seen your kind before (MANY times) ...and there's no getting through to them.

Hell, you even had to argue with Maz about frickin' Taco Bell (and Taco Bell had nothing to do with anything).

I've always found the best way to deal with people of your ilk is to simply go ahead and give them the victory ...so, Mr. Mad-Hatter ....YOU WIN!! And when you follow-up with some strange, new argument in your next post (with maybe a new link attached) ...consider this a preemptive "YOU WIN!" follow-up post for that one, too!

-Birdman

 

[mad_hatter]

The funny thing is, I still don't know what that point was!

Do you actually read anything that people write?