In my previous drafts, I had my heroine running out of time in the third act, trying to achieve her goal (standard hollywood films.) Now, I've decided to have the audience see her lose the battle and instead, please her mother but then in the last scene, we see that she's been actually doing the former (achieving her goal.) My worry is, I don't want to piss off the audience. I've managed to make her a very sympathetic character but I'm a bit worried that the audience won't root for her in the final act because they'll want her to achieve her goal instead (which ofcourse she does, but they won't know until the end.) Hope this makes sense.
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third act
- Thread starter victorian
- Start date
victorian said:
Actually, it doesn't. So what is the heroine's goal? To please her mother? Or...to win the battle? Are they both goals? Is one greater than the other? To achieve one must she fall short of the other?
If her goal is to please her mother and to please her mother means to lose the battle, then yes the audience will be rooting against her in the battle. But if her goal is to win the battle, and winning the battle allows her to please her mother then the audience will be rooting for her to win the battle.
The thing is, there has to be a clear definition of what her goal is. There is a difference between a character's goal (what she wants) and her destiny (what she needs). From your post, I think you need to define which is what and proceed from there.
Poke
victorian said:
I think I know what you're talking about.
Obviously I haven't read the script and it greatly depends on how you execute it, but I think you should be OK. It's pretty standard to have the hero down-and-out right before they achieve their goal -- the "darkest before dawm" approach to story telling.
I think if you have the audiences' attention and their involved with the story, you'll be able to play with them a little in the third act. I think my only advice would be not to press your luck. Wrap it all up as quickly as possible. There's great benefit to making the audience think the hero/heroine will not achieve their goal (even if they logically know they will) before having the goal achieved. Just don't stretch that part out too long.
I guess my main concern would be that by fooling the audience into thinking she is not going to achieve her goal, you lose the momentum of the story. If the story is a progression of her reaching a goal, then it would naturally stall if it appears she doesn't reach it. That's why I would suggest keeping that part of the story as short or as small as possible.
Hope that makes sense and/or relates to your story.
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Thanks Poke. Actually her original goal was to win a coveted title and because of a new situation she had to face, the goal changed to leaving the country. And by the end of the second act, something major happens (death) that leaves her feeling guilty. Even her mother blames her for it. This will make the audience root for the heroine more. That's where my dilemma begins. I've tried to make the audience understand that the guilt has forced her to final submit to the mother's wishes and dump her goal, which is to leave the country but my fear is that the audience might not want to see her give up (which she's not but won't be shown until the last scene.)
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If the heroine resolving the situation with her mother is a greater need than leaving the country, then that is what should happen, and the audience will root for that and be happy with the resolution you have proposed. If leaving the country is a greater need, then the audience will root for that and be upset at the resolution with the mother. Again, figure out what the character needs and what she wants...and have her ultimately achieve what she needs as opposed to what she wants (unless she is shallow, then she will be going for "wants" over "needs").
I think this discussion is really unnecessary if, as you imply, the final scene shows us that she achieves her goal by achieving her need. If you are worried about the audience being upset that she is giving up on leaving the country enough to give up on the rest of the story, thus not getting the pay off in the final scene; I would tell you not to worry - if the audience has a vested interest in the character by the third act, they'll want to stick with her until the end.
Poke
I think this discussion is really unnecessary if, as you imply, the final scene shows us that she achieves her goal by achieving her need. If you are worried about the audience being upset that she is giving up on leaving the country enough to give up on the rest of the story, thus not getting the pay off in the final scene; I would tell you not to worry - if the audience has a vested interest in the character by the third act, they'll want to stick with her until the end.
Poke
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I foresee a problem. The third act should flow naturally out of the first and second. If you have a radically different third act then the first and second acts need to change to accomodate this. You will lose your audience if when you get to her major decision the smartest 5% can't see it coming and 85% of the rest can't go "Ah! I should have seen that coming." It has to be the only natural conclusion from the evidence they've been given, even if it comes as a surprise.
I was thinking (and this is just an observation from the limited amount of info given) that if the death is the turning point that catapults the story into the third act, then IMO that is too big a change in the story with so little time left to resolve it. I am wondering if the death shouldn't take place in the middle of the second act (the pinch), thus the heroine's decision to leave would be a more natural turning point from Act 2 to 3.
Poke
Poke
Thanks Poke. Actually the father's health is part of the storyline. He's been ailing since the beginning of the film and his health regresses during the film. His relationship with his daughter is pivotal all throughout the film until the end of second act, keeping the story moving.
Structure...
victorian,
Sounds like a possible structure problem. Not knowing the actual story, it's hard to speculate but I would recommend reading up on some different kinds of structure. Actually, most theories of structure are very similar but I would recommend reading the following two web sites:
Nine-Act Structure
--I'm not saying this is the end all to structure... Not by a long shot. But rather than trying to sit here and type it all out, I recommend the above page to you mainly so you can read about the 2 goal structure. This is really good reading and might help you out a bit.
A more thorough analysis of structure combined with some short reading would be here:
5 Key Turning Points
Again, I don't want to attempt to explain it all because my interpretation probably differs from yours, Poke's, Clive's, etc. I think you should come away from these pages with your own understanding and interpretation. I also use these two sites because they do not go into great detail on their theories which is a good thing because at that point, you can make some of it your own as well as create some of your own theory.
Good luck with it...
filmy
victorian said:
victorian,
Sounds like a possible structure problem. Not knowing the actual story, it's hard to speculate but I would recommend reading up on some different kinds of structure. Actually, most theories of structure are very similar but I would recommend reading the following two web sites:
Nine-Act Structure
--I'm not saying this is the end all to structure... Not by a long shot. But rather than trying to sit here and type it all out, I recommend the above page to you mainly so you can read about the 2 goal structure. This is really good reading and might help you out a bit.
A more thorough analysis of structure combined with some short reading would be here:
5 Key Turning Points
Again, I don't want to attempt to explain it all because my interpretation probably differs from yours, Poke's, Clive's, etc. I think you should come away from these pages with your own understanding and interpretation. I also use these two sites because they do not go into great detail on their theories which is a good thing because at that point, you can make some of it your own as well as create some of your own theory.
Good luck with it...
filmy
Whoa...
Uh... Yeah.
Well I guess I think a little differently. I think there is Hollywood Formula and I hate formula. All stories need some kind of structure. Structure is structure whether you think it's Hollywood or not. Any GOOD story and or script needs some kind of structure or it simply falls apart.
You didn't read anything about me telling you to write a Hollywood screenplay. I don't write 'em and I hate reading them but I do because inside of each and every one of them is structure.
In other words, no matter what you're writing, you need to have a plan. Even when you let your characters play out for a while to discover new territory, you need to get them to the end. This is structure.
You missed my point completely. Like I said... It sounds like you have a structure problem. Structure is structure and I purposely recommended these two urls to give you an idea of STRUCTURE without the additional Hollywood Forumula.
Notice I didn't say to follow either one of these theories... I did say that you might want to read through them to get a better understanding of structure because from what I have read so far, that's where your problem stems from.
But hey... Just trying to help. Like my ballcap says, "Fuhgedaboudit."
filmy
Uh... Yeah.
Well I guess I think a little differently. I think there is Hollywood Formula and I hate formula. All stories need some kind of structure. Structure is structure whether you think it's Hollywood or not. Any GOOD story and or script needs some kind of structure or it simply falls apart.
You didn't read anything about me telling you to write a Hollywood screenplay. I don't write 'em and I hate reading them but I do because inside of each and every one of them is structure.
In other words, no matter what you're writing, you need to have a plan. Even when you let your characters play out for a while to discover new territory, you need to get them to the end. This is structure.
You missed my point completely. Like I said... It sounds like you have a structure problem. Structure is structure and I purposely recommended these two urls to give you an idea of STRUCTURE without the additional Hollywood Forumula.
Notice I didn't say to follow either one of these theories... I did say that you might want to read through them to get a better understanding of structure because from what I have read so far, that's where your problem stems from.
But hey... Just trying to help. Like my ballcap says, "Fuhgedaboudit."
filmy
FilmJumper,
I think we're totally misunderstanding each other. I don't think you got what I was trying to do. And when I said I'm trying to go against structure, I didn't know what I was on about. I do thank you for the links but I do have those nails down but my thing is I was trying to put a twist on my last act to try and fool the audience. That's what I'm playing with right now, to try and have the audience think she's totally given up when she actually hasn't. I don't think it has anything to do with structure. Again, I do appreciate your post. What I might do is to film both last acts (someone suggested that) and see which one is more powerful.
I think we're totally misunderstanding each other. I don't think you got what I was trying to do. And when I said I'm trying to go against structure, I didn't know what I was on about. I do thank you for the links but I do have those nails down but my thing is I was trying to put a twist on my last act to try and fool the audience. That's what I'm playing with right now, to try and have the audience think she's totally given up when she actually hasn't. I don't think it has anything to do with structure. Again, I do appreciate your post. What I might do is to film both last acts (someone suggested that) and see which one is more powerful.
Structure...
victorian,
First of all, I don't remember reading anything about you going AGAINST structure. I did read something about not wanting this to end with a typical Hollywood ending.
The ending you're talking about has been done many times before...
Maybe what we are really doing is having a disagreement about structure which, is fine. I never take this personally and certainly hope nobody else ever does... LOL. After all, this is just the internet.
Again however (and I promise this is the last time I beat the dead horse), trying to change one aspect of a story that has already been written could get the story itself into trouble.
When you already have a thoroughly laid out plan (structure) and follow it. That is your plan. Often, simply changing one aspect of that plan, assuming that the plan works and is realistic, can make the story go off track. That's EXACTLY why Hollywood does make multiple endings for movies and play them in front of test audiences. By the time 99% of the scripts have been shot, they have jumped the tracks LONG LONG ago because someone was brought in to rewrite some aspect.
The best rewrites are those that recreate structure from the beginning. Many aspects of the original story can be implemented into the new structure but it is new structure so new elements (those old elements that have been modified) have to be added.
If you make both endings as you suggested, it is very likely that your audience will like the original ending since it was part of the original structure. Unless the new ending can fit seamlessly into the old structure, making sense out of all your plot points, it will very likely fail.
Maybe I can boil down my structure theory for you a little more simply so you stay on track:
Ask yourself the following questions before EITHER ending:
What’s the next thing this character would realistically do?
What’s the most interesting thing this character could do?
Where do I want the story to go next?
Where do I want the story to end up eventually?
Does this scene stand up on its own merit, or is it just setting things up for later in the story?
What are the later repercussions of this scene? How could I maximize them?
--Most likely, one of your endings will pop out at you. If it does, then again, it is very likely that you need to restructure your story. If so, that means going back to the beginning and asking each and every one of these questions for each scene and determine if the following scene answers these questions. If not, then rewrite the scene.
You might find that only very small tweaking need take place...
These questions need to be asked to make sure that you don't lose your audience or, as you suggested, piss them off. If it isn't realistic to them, then yeah, they might be pissed off if you've been leading down a totally different road.
Anyway, I hope it works out. Just trying to help when I can. Good luck.
filmy
victorian said:
victorian,
First of all, I don't remember reading anything about you going AGAINST structure. I did read something about not wanting this to end with a typical Hollywood ending.
The ending you're talking about has been done many times before...
Maybe what we are really doing is having a disagreement about structure which, is fine. I never take this personally and certainly hope nobody else ever does... LOL. After all, this is just the internet.
Again however (and I promise this is the last time I beat the dead horse), trying to change one aspect of a story that has already been written could get the story itself into trouble.
When you already have a thoroughly laid out plan (structure) and follow it. That is your plan. Often, simply changing one aspect of that plan, assuming that the plan works and is realistic, can make the story go off track. That's EXACTLY why Hollywood does make multiple endings for movies and play them in front of test audiences. By the time 99% of the scripts have been shot, they have jumped the tracks LONG LONG ago because someone was brought in to rewrite some aspect.
The best rewrites are those that recreate structure from the beginning. Many aspects of the original story can be implemented into the new structure but it is new structure so new elements (those old elements that have been modified) have to be added.
If you make both endings as you suggested, it is very likely that your audience will like the original ending since it was part of the original structure. Unless the new ending can fit seamlessly into the old structure, making sense out of all your plot points, it will very likely fail.
Maybe I can boil down my structure theory for you a little more simply so you stay on track:
Ask yourself the following questions before EITHER ending:
What’s the next thing this character would realistically do?
What’s the most interesting thing this character could do?
Where do I want the story to go next?
Where do I want the story to end up eventually?
Does this scene stand up on its own merit, or is it just setting things up for later in the story?
What are the later repercussions of this scene? How could I maximize them?
--Most likely, one of your endings will pop out at you. If it does, then again, it is very likely that you need to restructure your story. If so, that means going back to the beginning and asking each and every one of these questions for each scene and determine if the following scene answers these questions. If not, then rewrite the scene.
You might find that only very small tweaking need take place...
These questions need to be asked to make sure that you don't lose your audience or, as you suggested, piss them off. If it isn't realistic to them, then yeah, they might be pissed off if you've been leading down a totally different road.
Anyway, I hope it works out. Just trying to help when I can. Good luck.
filmy