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TheMoviesClub
- Thread starter NathalieS
- Start date
TheMoviesClub more news
I found out that TheMoviesClub will be launched the Edinburgh Film festival in a few weeks time. I have just signed up for their mailing list on their web site www.themoviesclub.com. They will post some post Cannes blog soon . Check it out!
Nathalie
I found out that TheMoviesClub will be launched the Edinburgh Film festival in a few weeks time. I have just signed up for their mailing list on their web site www.themoviesclub.com. They will post some post Cannes blog soon . Check it out!
Nathalie
Nathalie, would I be right in thinking that you're connected with this project in some way? Because it's fine if you are... but I for one prefer people to be straight about stuff like that, rather than writing referrals for their own sites.
This is a business where the ability to trust the people you're dealing with is vital... Now, I run an online magazine for indie film makers... and I pimp my site here, but I'm always very straight about what I'm doing.
If you do that, I think you'll get a better response.
And just to give you something to think about... I WILL have people at Edinburgh this year and if I suspect that you're not being straight, I will make sure the word goes out that your people are not to be trusted. However, if you confess I'll call off the dogs... because after all, we all make mistakes when we're enthusiastic about projects.
If you genuinely believe you have something to offer the indie industry, then you should contact me anyway, because that's what my magazine is all about.
This is a business where the ability to trust the people you're dealing with is vital... Now, I run an online magazine for indie film makers... and I pimp my site here, but I'm always very straight about what I'm doing.
If you do that, I think you'll get a better response.
And just to give you something to think about... I WILL have people at Edinburgh this year and if I suspect that you're not being straight, I will make sure the word goes out that your people are not to be trusted. However, if you confess I'll call off the dogs... because after all, we all make mistakes when we're enthusiastic about projects.
If you genuinely believe you have something to offer the indie industry, then you should contact me anyway, because that's what my magazine is all about.
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Clive,
I appreciate your feedback. I was not aware of my mistake and I do apologise for the inconvenience caused by this post. Please feel free to remove it if you feel it is not relevant to your site. and if you do have people at Edinburgh it would be good to meet up with them, as we will certainly be there.
I am new to this forum and I am part indeed of TheMoviesClub. I am very entusiastic about this idea and I just wanted to make people aware of it and hear their comments. More than happy to share more information with you on the initiative if you are interested.
Nathalie
I appreciate your feedback. I was not aware of my mistake and I do apologise for the inconvenience caused by this post. Please feel free to remove it if you feel it is not relevant to your site. and if you do have people at Edinburgh it would be good to meet up with them, as we will certainly be there.
I am new to this forum and I am part indeed of TheMoviesClub. I am very entusiastic about this idea and I just wanted to make people aware of it and hear their comments. More than happy to share more information with you on the initiative if you are interested.
Nathalie
OK, apology accepted.
Truth is that people always see through false testimonials and regard it as spam and untrustworthy. It's never a good tactic and always backfires on the person involved.
Now, if you've got a great product, tell us about it and let us make our minds up by what you're providing.
I will have people at Edinburgh, might even be there myself... so, tell me, why should I be excited about what you're offering? Give me a good enough reason and I'll check out the website.
Truth is that people always see through false testimonials and regard it as spam and untrustworthy. It's never a good tactic and always backfires on the person involved.
Now, if you've got a great product, tell us about it and let us make our minds up by what you're providing.
I will have people at Edinburgh, might even be there myself... so, tell me, why should I be excited about what you're offering? Give me a good enough reason and I'll check out the website.
why would it be interesting to you ?
so after you've made your movie what happens next?
well the existing distribution model is broken, or at least doesnt work well for most indie films. how many of the filmmakers on this site get a break from traditional distributors ? so we think that the time has come for a new collaborative approach to releasing movies, and intend to create a global community to deliver this.
TheMoviesClub is a new movie distributor. and its very different to the existing distributors as it is a microfinance co-operative that is managed online.
Members will be able to discuss and have an equal vote on the movies, and by creating a large community it will also have the financial clout to acquire and support independent movies. thats got to be a good thing ?
i hope you agree there is room for a new model in film distribution ?
Nathalie
so after you've made your movie what happens next?
well the existing distribution model is broken, or at least doesnt work well for most indie films. how many of the filmmakers on this site get a break from traditional distributors ? so we think that the time has come for a new collaborative approach to releasing movies, and intend to create a global community to deliver this.
TheMoviesClub is a new movie distributor. and its very different to the existing distributors as it is a microfinance co-operative that is managed online.
Members will be able to discuss and have an equal vote on the movies, and by creating a large community it will also have the financial clout to acquire and support independent movies. thats got to be a good thing ?
i hope you agree there is room for a new model in film distribution ?
Nathalie
I'm all for looking at indie film maker distribution... in fact I run a magazine all about solving exactly that problem.
But, any new distribution system has to solve one basic problem... how to introduce the paying public to the product.
Now, I happen to both disagree and agree at the same time with one of your statements (weird huh, but stick with me)
I agree with aspects of that statement. Traditional distribution has a couple of problems: 1) it can only really handle mass market products... 2) it hasn't yet understood the implications of high quality digital production and still sees film as the mark of a real movie... and, finally 3) It equates budget with quality.
So, you're right, in that micro-budget indies are at a disadvantage in that market from the get go.
However, too many indies rush into self-distribution, not because there isn't a place for them in the traditional distribution model... but because they don't understand the industry well enough to survive in the market place.
Self-distribution, at the moment, isn't capable of sustaining even a modest micro-budget movie... when all of the real return on movie making comes from the number of territories you can sell a movie into.
92.3% of indie movie makers problems with traditional distribution stem from the following problems:
1) Indie film makers often make films don't inspire people to want to watch them (poor concept)
2) Indie film makers often make films that don't work as stories (poor script)
3) Indie film makers often make films that aren't very good (poor execution)
and finally
4) Indie film makers often make films without any marketing strategy (poor business skills)
Now, none of the above problems are "distribution company failures"
Any film maker who understands the need of the market and can create films that have a natural home in that market, doesn't need self-distribution.
Therefore, by definition, self-distribution ends up being one rung below the bargain bin at Woolworths... full of films that nobody wants to watch.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think there is a real future for boutique, focussed film distribution... and there is also a future for self-distribution on micro-budget projects... and if you think you've got a way to make sales of 500,000 units and upwards, then I'm interested.
However, if this is just "self-distribute because I sales agents won't return my phone calls" then my take is you're looking at the problem from the wrong end.
Now, the mere fact that you've already mangled the marketing of your new project by trying to "scam" film makers with a fake referral, doesn't inspire me that you have the marketing chops to handle indie distribution... (do you see how that strategy backfired on you?)
However I applaud the fact that you're trying to do something... and if you want to talk seriously about the evolving distribution market and where self-distribution fits into that, I WILL be interested in your take.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not knocking you... I want indie distribution to work... but, for me that means I want it to REALLY work.
But, any new distribution system has to solve one basic problem... how to introduce the paying public to the product.
Now, I happen to both disagree and agree at the same time with one of your statements (weird huh, but stick with me)
I agree with aspects of that statement. Traditional distribution has a couple of problems: 1) it can only really handle mass market products... 2) it hasn't yet understood the implications of high quality digital production and still sees film as the mark of a real movie... and, finally 3) It equates budget with quality.
So, you're right, in that micro-budget indies are at a disadvantage in that market from the get go.
However, too many indies rush into self-distribution, not because there isn't a place for them in the traditional distribution model... but because they don't understand the industry well enough to survive in the market place.
Self-distribution, at the moment, isn't capable of sustaining even a modest micro-budget movie... when all of the real return on movie making comes from the number of territories you can sell a movie into.
92.3% of indie movie makers problems with traditional distribution stem from the following problems:
1) Indie film makers often make films don't inspire people to want to watch them (poor concept)
2) Indie film makers often make films that don't work as stories (poor script)
3) Indie film makers often make films that aren't very good (poor execution)
and finally
4) Indie film makers often make films without any marketing strategy (poor business skills)
Now, none of the above problems are "distribution company failures"
Any film maker who understands the need of the market and can create films that have a natural home in that market, doesn't need self-distribution.
Therefore, by definition, self-distribution ends up being one rung below the bargain bin at Woolworths... full of films that nobody wants to watch.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think there is a real future for boutique, focussed film distribution... and there is also a future for self-distribution on micro-budget projects... and if you think you've got a way to make sales of 500,000 units and upwards, then I'm interested.
However, if this is just "self-distribute because I sales agents won't return my phone calls" then my take is you're looking at the problem from the wrong end.
Now, the mere fact that you've already mangled the marketing of your new project by trying to "scam" film makers with a fake referral, doesn't inspire me that you have the marketing chops to handle indie distribution... (do you see how that strategy backfired on you?)
However I applaud the fact that you're trying to do something... and if you want to talk seriously about the evolving distribution market and where self-distribution fits into that, I WILL be interested in your take.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not knocking you... I want indie distribution to work... but, for me that means I want it to REALLY work.
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Well said, Clive. It's too easy to blame someone else when you can't sell your product. Sometimes, I suppose, the system isn't suited to the product, but probably more often the product is substandard. I've purchased many independent movies on DVD, and I can say, having watched some pretty bad movies, that the bar is not set too high. 
Doug
Doug
You re totally right. The product has to be right to be able to sell.
First of all let me clarify something. What we are trying to do is not making a film and looking at self distribution.As you say there are a number of efforts in this space and none of them are particularly working commercially as a sustainable business model.
what we are targetting are completed features, probably in the festival circuit and we are looking to acquire and release the film and backing this with a large community / co-operative and a large publicity budget. Our aim is to push the chosen film(s) into a much higher level, trying to make it a hit such as Control for example or Hallam Foe as opposed to just another low budget movie destined for the Woolworths bargain bin.
So we are both building the community, so we establish the new distribution outfit as a co-operative that has some muscle and we are also helping to identify films for the members to select for acquisition e.g. at Cannes & Edinburgh Festivals.
And with this solution we do hope to drives sales in the 100,000s and not 1,000 dvds.
Admittedly only a few film makers will benefit from this initiative, but it can make a major difference to their films.
And also if it does work well then actually we could widen the remit and get more involved in more independent movies.
Does it make sense?
Nathalie
First of all let me clarify something. What we are trying to do is not making a film and looking at self distribution.As you say there are a number of efforts in this space and none of them are particularly working commercially as a sustainable business model.
what we are targetting are completed features, probably in the festival circuit and we are looking to acquire and release the film and backing this with a large community / co-operative and a large publicity budget. Our aim is to push the chosen film(s) into a much higher level, trying to make it a hit such as Control for example or Hallam Foe as opposed to just another low budget movie destined for the Woolworths bargain bin.
So we are both building the community, so we establish the new distribution outfit as a co-operative that has some muscle and we are also helping to identify films for the members to select for acquisition e.g. at Cannes & Edinburgh Festivals.
And with this solution we do hope to drives sales in the 100,000s and not 1,000 dvds.
Admittedly only a few film makers will benefit from this initiative, but it can make a major difference to their films.
And also if it does work well then actually we could widen the remit and get more involved in more independent movies.
Does it make sense?
Nathalie
It makes sense Nathalie, but I'm not sure your investor investment ratio is right. Given the administrative task of tracking and reimbursing investors, I think the model would be less likely to get mired down in administrative costs if there were 5,000 investors each investing 150 pounds; or something like that. I understand the desire for democracy, but most people don't understand what it takes to sell a movie (myself included), so decisions by consensus may be bad decisions. The existing model leaves the business and marketing decisions to a small group of highly skilled individuals. Although you may disagree with them, they do know their business and they know what makes money. It would make more sense to me, to listen to them and make a movie that has a better chance at commercial success than to ignore them, and rely on the democratic majority of 50,000 unskilled "investors".
On the opposite side of the argument, if you believe in what you are doing and you can convince 50,000 people to buy in, you should give it a go. I am definitely interested in seeing how it works, even if you prove me wrong. I've never been a big risk taker. I run my business rather conservatively.
Doug
On the opposite side of the argument, if you believe in what you are doing and you can convince 50,000 people to buy in, you should give it a go. I am definitely interested in seeing how it works, even if you prove me wrong. I've never been a big risk taker. I run my business rather conservatively.
Doug
Your goal makes sense... I just don't understand the way you're approaching it. It seems a bit cockeyed.
You schemes is basically for lots of filmmakers to join movie club and become investors YES/NO
You then find films from the festival circuit for the community to pick from YES/NO
The community picks a film it believes in and then takes funds to invest in the film's marketing YES/NO
The community receives a DVD and a cinema ticket to see their film in return for their $30 YES/NO
The biggest problems I see with this are:
1) I don't think the maths works... You're talking about a projected 100,000 DVD sales, but your scheme is aimed at funding a UK cinema release. By the time you've paid for the distribution rights for the movie and covered the costs of getting several 35mm prints for your cinema release, and then paid for advertising, you're never going to make back those kinds of costs on a 100,000 unit sale. Especially as you've got an implicit assumption built in there that a UK cinema release will elevate a film to the point where it will sell 100,000 copies.
2) You've no evidence that you can get the sales side to work... and this is the big one really. If you were setting up a site and the pitch was "last year I found a no-budget film at a film festival, invested my own money in getting a cinema release and as a result we sold 126,000 DVD... now we want to give all of you a chance to get involved in promoting more great films"... at least then we'd have some evidence that your approach to marketing is going to work.
3) You're playing a global game in the UK market... there isn't enough money in the UK market to sustain even a modestly budgeted film. One of the biggest problems with the UK film scene is film makers' insane obsession with the home market. OK it secures "soft funding" but it then hamstrings the product when it goes to market.
The truth is, the real money in film distribution is in the sales of international territories.
Look, I still applaud your enthusiasm... but bottom line is I don't think you've got the formula right. This is what I predict:
1) You won't reach your baseline membership target, because there isn't $60's worth of value for the investors in joining
2) You'll end up spending the next year answering angry emails from the 39 people who did invest, asking when they can have their money back.
3) You'll have spent their money on going to festivals to look for films and will have to both change your names and leave the country.
I hope I'm wrong, but my business gut tells me this is how it will play out...
This isn't a business idea I would but before the Dragon's Den... not unless you like getting called an idiot on national TV
You schemes is basically for lots of filmmakers to join movie club and become investors YES/NO
You then find films from the festival circuit for the community to pick from YES/NO
The community picks a film it believes in and then takes funds to invest in the film's marketing YES/NO
The community receives a DVD and a cinema ticket to see their film in return for their $30 YES/NO
The biggest problems I see with this are:
1) I don't think the maths works... You're talking about a projected 100,000 DVD sales, but your scheme is aimed at funding a UK cinema release. By the time you've paid for the distribution rights for the movie and covered the costs of getting several 35mm prints for your cinema release, and then paid for advertising, you're never going to make back those kinds of costs on a 100,000 unit sale. Especially as you've got an implicit assumption built in there that a UK cinema release will elevate a film to the point where it will sell 100,000 copies.
2) You've no evidence that you can get the sales side to work... and this is the big one really. If you were setting up a site and the pitch was "last year I found a no-budget film at a film festival, invested my own money in getting a cinema release and as a result we sold 126,000 DVD... now we want to give all of you a chance to get involved in promoting more great films"... at least then we'd have some evidence that your approach to marketing is going to work.
3) You're playing a global game in the UK market... there isn't enough money in the UK market to sustain even a modestly budgeted film. One of the biggest problems with the UK film scene is film makers' insane obsession with the home market. OK it secures "soft funding" but it then hamstrings the product when it goes to market.
The truth is, the real money in film distribution is in the sales of international territories.
Look, I still applaud your enthusiasm... but bottom line is I don't think you've got the formula right. This is what I predict:
1) You won't reach your baseline membership target, because there isn't $60's worth of value for the investors in joining
2) You'll end up spending the next year answering angry emails from the 39 people who did invest, asking when they can have their money back.
3) You'll have spent their money on going to festivals to look for films and will have to both change your names and leave the country.
I hope I'm wrong, but my business gut tells me this is how it will play out...
This isn't a business idea I would but before the Dragon's Den... not unless you like getting called an idiot on national TV
Again, I think Clive said it very well. Clive, where do you find the time?
Doug
Doug
Very good questions. I hope you’ll like the answers too:
- No, our scheme is not for lots of filmmakers to join movie club and become investors
The scheme is aimed at anybody with an interest in films from filmmakers, to film fans to students to 50 year old housewives. The community can be as diverse as the world. And for the price of a DVD they can join the community.
- Yes, we find films from the festival circuit for the community to pick from.
The co-operative will go and select independent films at festivals and present them to the community.
- Yes, the community picks a film it believes in and then takes funds to invest in the film's marketing.
But members only pay once. After investing their $30, they will get to vote for the independent films they want the cooperative to buy the rights for, promote and distribute.
- Yes the community receives a DVD and a cinema ticket to see their film in return for their $30 S and much more than that.
Members participate not only in the acquisition but also in marketing and promotion of the independent films purchased by the site. Members will either get to share in their chosen film’s financial success or re-invest in future flicks.
- We are confident of getting our member numbers.
- Ref the 39 people, to avoid that we are just taking registrations at stage 1 until we know people buy into the idea, and then we will ask for the funds and people to join .
- We are not spending any money on attending festivals. So we are subsidizing this element of the business. Else as you say the funds would disappear very quickly so we can safely keep our names and addresses as they are.
As for the last part, my answer is that if you do the same as everybody else then you are an idiot. A good example is EASYJET. Everyone said he was an idiot and look now, it's a very successful business. So we hope for the same. This type of web scheme has proved already successful. Think Sellaband for Music and Barcelona Footfall club. Crow-funding can build any entity a billion £ initiative to sponsor and drive any passionate interest. Another good example is Mr. Yunus, Noble prize winner, from Bangladesh, who changed 45% of that country's population per capita income by using the same initiative called "micro-finance".
- No, our scheme is not for lots of filmmakers to join movie club and become investors
The scheme is aimed at anybody with an interest in films from filmmakers, to film fans to students to 50 year old housewives. The community can be as diverse as the world. And for the price of a DVD they can join the community.
- Yes, we find films from the festival circuit for the community to pick from.
The co-operative will go and select independent films at festivals and present them to the community.
- Yes, the community picks a film it believes in and then takes funds to invest in the film's marketing.
But members only pay once. After investing their $30, they will get to vote for the independent films they want the cooperative to buy the rights for, promote and distribute.
- Yes the community receives a DVD and a cinema ticket to see their film in return for their $30 S and much more than that.
Members participate not only in the acquisition but also in marketing and promotion of the independent films purchased by the site. Members will either get to share in their chosen film’s financial success or re-invest in future flicks.
- We are confident of getting our member numbers.
- Ref the 39 people, to avoid that we are just taking registrations at stage 1 until we know people buy into the idea, and then we will ask for the funds and people to join .
- We are not spending any money on attending festivals. So we are subsidizing this element of the business. Else as you say the funds would disappear very quickly so we can safely keep our names and addresses as they are.
As for the last part, my answer is that if you do the same as everybody else then you are an idiot. A good example is EASYJET. Everyone said he was an idiot and look now, it's a very successful business. So we hope for the same. This type of web scheme has proved already successful. Think Sellaband for Music and Barcelona Footfall club. Crow-funding can build any entity a billion £ initiative to sponsor and drive any passionate interest. Another good example is Mr. Yunus, Noble prize winner, from Bangladesh, who changed 45% of that country's population per capita income by using the same initiative called "micro-finance".
Nathalie,
Don't get snotty with me... think very carefully about what I've done for you... by asking the questions that your potential investors will ask, I've given you the opportunity to accurately pitch your scheme... by giving you a shot at overcoming those objection to purchase in an open forum. Most people see the objections, but never bother to ask the questions, because it's easier to right the scheme off as a scam. So, what I doing here, is of huge benefit to you... and if you understood that as an international award winning advertising consultant, I used to charge in excess of £800 a day for what you're getting for free, I think I deserve better. In fact, I guarantee that your click through rate from this indietalk went up, since I started bumping your post.
And as to your last comment... well, yes if you only do what you've always done, you'll only get what you always get. Basic sales 101. However, new doesn't automatically equal right... or even better.
I can see what you're attempting to do and it's not a stupid idea... my biggest objection is the lack of track record in distribution of the people running the project. Sales and distribution is a specialist area... sales and marketing are massively complex and even the best of us get it wrong, sometimes. What I see here is your team making too many basic marketing errors in your pitching of the site... which doesn't lead to confidence in your abilities to market a film... which is a much tougher proposition.
I understand your enthusiasm for this project... and you've correctly identified the problem that film makers need to solve ie. how to market their films... however, I don't think you've done enough or the right kind of market research into how the film distribution industry actually works. Your business plan seems to be based on guesses rather than market intel... you're projecting sales of 100,000 units... but I don't see how you're going to achieve that. That's a target, not part of a well balanced business strategy.
Bottom line is it looks to me like you're trying to acquire an education in distribution, by using other people's money. I've also a sneaking suspicion that there is a conflict of interest... because hasn't Andy got a feature that he's attempting to self-distribute... it would be a real scandal if his film got shortlisted for nomination, wouldn't it.
I know you think I'm being hard on you... but trust me, this me holding back.
Don't get snotty with me... think very carefully about what I've done for you... by asking the questions that your potential investors will ask, I've given you the opportunity to accurately pitch your scheme... by giving you a shot at overcoming those objection to purchase in an open forum. Most people see the objections, but never bother to ask the questions, because it's easier to right the scheme off as a scam. So, what I doing here, is of huge benefit to you... and if you understood that as an international award winning advertising consultant, I used to charge in excess of £800 a day for what you're getting for free, I think I deserve better. In fact, I guarantee that your click through rate from this indietalk went up, since I started bumping your post.
And as to your last comment... well, yes if you only do what you've always done, you'll only get what you always get. Basic sales 101. However, new doesn't automatically equal right... or even better.
I can see what you're attempting to do and it's not a stupid idea... my biggest objection is the lack of track record in distribution of the people running the project. Sales and distribution is a specialist area... sales and marketing are massively complex and even the best of us get it wrong, sometimes. What I see here is your team making too many basic marketing errors in your pitching of the site... which doesn't lead to confidence in your abilities to market a film... which is a much tougher proposition.
I understand your enthusiasm for this project... and you've correctly identified the problem that film makers need to solve ie. how to market their films... however, I don't think you've done enough or the right kind of market research into how the film distribution industry actually works. Your business plan seems to be based on guesses rather than market intel... you're projecting sales of 100,000 units... but I don't see how you're going to achieve that. That's a target, not part of a well balanced business strategy.
Bottom line is it looks to me like you're trying to acquire an education in distribution, by using other people's money. I've also a sneaking suspicion that there is a conflict of interest... because hasn't Andy got a feature that he's attempting to self-distribute... it would be a real scandal if his film got shortlisted for nomination, wouldn't it.
I know you think I'm being hard on you... but trust me, this me holding back.
I just re-read the initial posts and I'd like to point this marketing tactic out to others. Pretending to not know about your own company is underhanded and non-confident. I applaud your backbone in breaking free of this marketing trend. I'm sure you've posted this same stuff on other fora. I encourage you to go to those fora and state your intentions as honestly there as you have done here now.
From false representation:
The first tactic has me annoyed, it shows to me that you don't think anyone will take your business model seriously at face value, you want to trick people into looking at it. The second shows your excitement at your business venture, this is much more encouraging from a prospective client's perspective. Don't belittle your clients by undermining their trust in you from first blush this way, it can only hurt your business.
I see lots of these types of marketing on this forum and others lately. I refuse to click on their websites based off of this lack of respect for the audience. I encourage all of those advertisers to step up to the plate and realize that we can and do make financial decisions based on our first impressions... and being duped into clicking a link isn't a good first impression.
Thank you Clive for engaging in this conversation, I'm interested in the service now... where before I was just annoyed.
From false representation:
To honest zeal (as all business owners should show):
The first tactic has me annoyed, it shows to me that you don't think anyone will take your business model seriously at face value, you want to trick people into looking at it. The second shows your excitement at your business venture, this is much more encouraging from a prospective client's perspective. Don't belittle your clients by undermining their trust in you from first blush this way, it can only hurt your business.
I see lots of these types of marketing on this forum and others lately. I refuse to click on their websites based off of this lack of respect for the audience. I encourage all of those advertisers to step up to the plate and realize that we can and do make financial decisions based on our first impressions... and being duped into clicking a link isn't a good first impression.
Thank you Clive for engaging in this conversation, I'm interested in the service now... where before I was just annoyed.