Starting from scratch!

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theclash4u5

Hey guys!

I just recently found this forum, and while it has been a big help already, I had a few questions to ask. Here's my situation...

I've been looking to get back into the filming/editing game for a while now, and frankly, I need to know where to start, equipment wise. I still have an old digital Sony HC-40 MiniDV that I've used in the past to film a few weddings and various other random events (which has been on it's last leg for a while now), but I obviously need an upgrade. After saving up for about a year, I now have about $1,200-$1,500 ($2,000 at the most) that I'm willing to put into some good equipment (camera + lens + audio equipment). I'm already familiar with the editing aspect of everything, but I'm drawing a blank for what to look to for filming. I would most likely be using it to film live concerts at clubs or bars to start (and eventually into something that would generate some sort of revenue in the future, hopefully), so nothing that's going to be submitted to Sundance or anything.

I've looked into HD camcorders, DSLRs (mainly the Canon t2i) and other more expensive filming devices, but since this is a pretty big purchase for me, I want to get as much advice as possible, so any ideas at all would be great! Basically, if you had this type of money to spend, would you spend it on the camera itself, or get something cheaper and spend more on lenses, equipment, etc?

I really would appreciate any kind of help/suggestions! :)
 
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Most DSLRs are going to limit you to a 12 minute take. Good for a song or two, but not an entire concert unless you were shooting with multiple cameras to inter-cut.

Sound-wise, shooting concert level audio allows for some lesser cost options such as the Zoom H4n, or better, the Tascam DR-100.

Frankly, your budget is somewhat limited for doing both image and sound. I'm sure others can speak to the image part, but for sound, I would consider something like the Tascam DR-680 to be the least expensive option for doing concert shoots, allowing you to take a signal from the FOH board, plus a couple of strategically placed mics since typicaly, unless you're talking about a HUGE venue, not all the stage sound is routed thru FOH and a significant portion of the house sound is stage bleed. You didn't indicate the type of music which will have some impact on mic choices and placement.

If you looking at something that can generate revenue, you may have to up the ante a bit.
 
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If you're going to do a lot of event work I'd lean towards a dedicated video camera. The shallow DOF and limited recording time that are fine for narrative work make event work difficult. A lot of the last generation of HD produmer cams like the HVX200, etc... have dropped way down in price in the used market as "filmmakers" switch to DSLR. The onboard audio on a prosumer cam is better than DSLR as well, letting you get by with on camera audio initially.
 
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Thanks for the replies!

I think at this point I'm more worried about video than sound, simply because as I start off, most of my filming is going to be for local bands, or at local bars/clubs, and they may not even allow me to attach anything "pre-game" anything before hand. So, most of my audio will most likely be coming straight from my external microphone, depending on what I get. Plus, I want to start to establish myself in my market, which means I'll be filming and editing everything for free (for the time being), just to build up a reputation and a portfolio for future job offers (hopefully, at least).

I really like the HD produmer cams, but due to my 2K budget, I'm not sure if I would be able to meet that. Then again, with accessories, I'm sure I would easily meet and pass that budget with just lenses alone on a DSLR. Gonzo, you talked about the used ones dropping in price due to the boom of DSLR, where would you suggest would be a good place to start looking for used ones? Ebay?

Thanks again for the advice! :D
 
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theclash4u5 said:
I think at this point I'm more worried about video than sound
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That's a foolish way to think when

theclash4u5 said:
I would most likely be using it to film live concerts at clubs or bars
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What's the point of a "concert" film when the sound sucks?


A dedicated audio recorder connected to the FOH console is the way to go. Barring that a good mic, strategically placed, is a viable option depending upon the mic and the venues sound system. You should still use a dedicated audio recorder so you are not tethered to the mic.
 
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Alcove Audio said:
That's a foolish way to think when



What's the point of a "concert" film when the sound sucks?


A dedicated audio recorder connected to the FOH console is the way to go. Barring that a good mic, strategically placed, is a viable option depending upon the mic and the venues sound system. You should still use a dedicated audio recorder so you are not tethered to the mic.
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Alcove Audio, I agree completely, but I may not have access to the FOH console in the first place. I've already talked to some of the venues and bands, and a good % of them will allow me to bring in and hook up equipment, but others said while I'm allowed to free lance film, they can't guarantee letting me do anything other than record the audience and the band.
 
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@theclash

audio is more important than video. Video is important of course, but it's worthless without good audio. I know, cause I have a lot of good video with crappy audio that even I don't want to watch. You may not want to get all the stuff that alcove recommends cause some of it is really expensive, but you need to spend some money on a threshold level of acceptable audio.
:)
 
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trueindie said:
@theclash

audio is more important than video. Video is important of course, but it's worthless without good audio. I know, cause I have a lot of good video with crappy audio that even I don't want to watch. You may not want to get all the stuff that alcove recommends cause some of it is really expensive, but you need to spend some money on a threshold level of acceptable audio.
:)
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Agreed! But like I said, if I'm simply doing some guerrilla filming without the assistant of the club or band, what would be my best option going forward? I could always get a dedicated audio recorder as I get more and more experience (and more well known), but for now, I'm just looking for the best bang for my buck. :cool:
 
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theclash4u5 said:
they can't guarantee letting me do anything other than record the audience and the band.
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Which is why I said:

Alcove Audio said:
a good mic, strategically placed, is a viable option depending upon the mic and the venues sound system. You should still use a dedicated audio recorder so you are not tethered to the camera.
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I know guys who have taped a digital audio recorder to a beam or the light rigging or something similar about halfway up the venue. It takes a while to find the sweet spot, and you have to make sure that it is very secure or it will rattle.
 
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DSLRS might get you more than 12 minutes if you get 16 gb card, or higher, and you can shoot without the camera overheating, by cooling it with one of those camera cooling packs. Still a lot of work though, perhaps an HV30 or more newer successor would be the way to. If you are shooting concerts the best way to get sound is to record from the stage performers mics if you could get access, rather than recording from a mic of your own, that is further away.
 
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harmonica44 said:
DSLRS might get you more than 12 minutes if you get 16 gb card, or higher, and you can shoot without the camera overheating, by cooling it with one of those camera cooling packs. Still a lot of work though, perhaps an HV30 or more newer successor would be the way to. If you are shooting concerts the best way to get sound is to record from the stage performers mics if you could get access, rather than recording from a mic of your own, that is further away.
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Yes, agreed on all. I think my mind has been made up on the Canon XA-10 or Sony VG-10, although the Sony VG-20 looks great and comes out in 2 months.
 
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harmonica44 said:
DSLRS might get you more than 12 minutes if you get 16 gb card, or higher, and you can shoot without the camera overheating, by cooling it with one of those camera cooling packs. Still a lot of work though, perhaps an HV30 or more newer successor would be the way to. If you are shooting concerts the best way to get sound is to record from the stage performers mics if you could get access, rather than recording from a mic of your own, that is further away.
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Erm, what? The 12 minute take limit is nothing to do with card capacity or overheating.
 
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So I keep switching back and forth on this subject, so I would like your guys final thoughts.

It's hard to find a good produmer cam used (usually), but people are always upgrading and selling their DSLR bodies. That being said, I've come down to two ideas, either the Canon XA-10 or the Panasonic GH-2.

Since my budget is about 2K, if I got the Canon XA-10, (around 2k?) I would be pretty much set until I was able to get another $500-1,000 for audio supplies.

However, with the GH2, I could get that + 14-140 lens for probably around $1500-$1800, then I could get an audio setup of something like the Audio Technica AT897 shotgun mic kit, Tascam DR-100 as the digital audio recorder and the sE Electronics SE1A (which was recommended by Alcove in another thread). Price range on that...not sure. Would that be over $1000?

That being said, which setup would be better for live concert events? Is the XLR on the XA-10 worth it over the DSLR setup that I'm getting together?

Thanks again for all your help :)
 
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harmonica44 said:
But what if you have a 16 or higher GB card? My 16 GB card holds 45 minutes of 1080p. I'm sorry I'm just not following.
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The size of the card doesn't matter. Each FILE on the card can only be 4GB. Which is around 12 minutes. And that's exactly what was said here:

chilipie said:
The FAT32 file system used on SDHC cards limits the maximum file size to 4GB, which is roughly 12 minutes of 1080p video on a Canon DSLR.
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