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Sound When Filming and When Filmings Done?

This is a very simple question:

This is my understanding of the sound recording process. Let me know if I'm wrong anywhere.

-When filming, there is a person recording sound to a dedicated "device". Unless the camera is recording the sound. In either case external mics can(will) be used.

-This person records the sound to a device/camera. They use different mics to get the sound to the device/camera.

- When the filming is done, the sound is then synched to the film if the sound was recorded to a separate device.

Question:

I'm a bit shaky on the separate audio capture situation. I'm assuming a situation as follows: A person standing with a mic...the mic connected via cable to a recording device.

Also, would the same person who recorded the sound also edit the sound?




Thanks!!
 
When filming, there is a person recording sound to a dedicated "device".

Typically, correct.

Unless the camera is recording the sound. In either case external mics can(will) be used.

While this can happen, it's far from optimal.

They use different mics to get the sound to the device/camera.

Sometimes, yes. Different tools suit different situations. Sometimes multiple tools are used in the situation.

When the filming is done, the sound is then synched to the film if the sound was recorded to a separate device.

Yep.

A person standing with a mic...the mic connected via cable to a recording device.

Boom Operator is usually connected to the recorder via a XLR cable, though you can hook it up using a wireless transmitter/receiver combination. This is also typically how lavalier microphones are set up, though they too can be hard wired.

would the same person who recorded the sound also edit the sound?

That question is similar to asking, "Will the person who records the picture also edit the picture."

It depends on what tasks the individual is doing. It can happen, and on smaller productions it seems to happen more regularly. On larger productions, it's more often than not different people.

For instance, I do location sound, though I don't do post audio.
 
This is a very simple question:

Not really! Or rather, the answer largely depends on they cetegory of filmmaking you're talking about. There are 3 broad categories of filmmaking as far as sound workflows are concerned: Amateur filmmaking, indie filmmaking and studio filmmaking. The answers I'll give are not absolute, they vary and may cross over to some extent.

there is a person recording sound to a dedicated "device". Unless the camera is recording the sound. In either case external mics can(will) be used.

In serious amateur filmmaking there is usually a person (sound guy) recording to an external consumer recording device. The sound would usually also be recorded on the camera (using the camera's internal mic), to help with sync'ing. With indie and studio films there would normally be at least a 3 person production sound team; A Production Sound Mixer (PSM), a Boom Op and a Cable Person. Sound from the Boom and lavs would be recorded to a multi-track audio device (field recorder) and time-code sync'ed with the camera/s. A feed from the PSM may be recorded on the camera, to aid the Picture Editor.

When the filming is done, the sound is then synched to the film if the sound was recorded to a separate device.

That is correct for amateur filmmaking. For indie or studio filmmaking, the camera sound (PSM mix) is most commonly sync'ed by the picture editor, not the actual production sound recordings. Although the exact workflow does vary quite a bit and some/many picture editors will use some of the production sound recordings.

I'm assuming a situation as follows: A person standing with a mic...the mic connected via cable to a recording device.

Again, that is correct for serious amateur filmmaking. In indie or studio films the mic is connected to a Field Mixer and the outputs from the field mixer are fed into a Field Recorder, along with monitoring outputs and maybe a feed to the camera.

Also, would the same person who recorded the sound also edit the sound?

Possibly in amateur filmmaking but that is uncommon, it's just as likely that the filmmaker will do it themselves or possibly hire an aspiring audio post pro or even get the composer to do it. In indie filmmaking there would normally be several professional audio post teams comprising 1-3 people per team. In total there could be anywhere from about 4 people on the audio post team on an extremely micro budget indie, up to about 20 or more for a low-high budget indie. Studio films may have anything from around 20 or so people in the audio post team to over 70, although 25-50 is most common.

In general indie and studio film workflows are the same/very similar but micro budget indies have more severe compromises: Fewer personnel fulfilling more roles, lower quality audio post facilities and often simplified (riskier) workflows. High budget indies are often/usually indistinguishable from studio films, using essentially the same personnel/facilities who work on studio films, although the film genre is usually different (more based on drama than action) which affects the amount of audio post resources required.

G
 
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This is a similar trolley (from what I can tell - I'm a camera guy ;)) to the one the PSM on the current shoot I'm on uses (though he doesn't use Beats headphones ;)):

IMG_2352-filtered.jpg


He has a boom op, and the boom is connected to a wireless transmitter, so no need for a cable guy (as there's no cables).

All the actors have wireless lapels, there's a wireless feed to the camera, so that there's a guide track for the picture edit. The Director also has a wireless feed (the Director is the one wearing the Beats headphones on this shoot ;)) so he can hear the production sound.

We're synced with timecode, though we still slate every shot as is common practice.

image.php


The sound guys generally provide their own TC slate and TC sync gear. I own a dumb slate but it rarely gets used these days except in a pinch.
 
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When sound for picture was first introduced the sound was always recorded to a separate device. It wasn't until the advent of video cameras that capturing sound on the same media as the picture became prevalent. Keep in mind that even today - if the production is using film - that recording to a separate audio device is still the ONLY way to record production sound, and most pro and semi-pro projects will use a separate audio system even if the camera does have audio capabilities.

As APE already pointed out there are many variables depending upon whether the project is a zero dollar production or a many dollars production - all the way from using the camera mic to a three man production sound crew with $150,000 worth of production sound gear.


For most low budget indie productions there will be at least a PSM/BO - Production Sound Mixer/Boom-Op - who handles all of the production sound duties. S/he will most probably have a very minimal sound kit; an audio recorder, a shotgun mic and a hypercardioid mic, plus the usual accessories of a boom-pole, shock-mount, wind protection, headphones, etc. The camera mic will also record the production sound and will be used as a sync reference in post. Softwares like PluralEyes automates the process of syncing the production sound recorded by the PSM/BO to the camera sync track, although not perfectly. This is why it is mandatory that you:

1 - Visually slate each take.
2 - Verbally slate each take.
3 - Keep detailed, accurate sound/picture logs

These are just three of the many production sound "details" that save you headaches in post. For low/no/mini/micro budget indie filmmakers every minute/dollar spent on sound during production saves ten (10) in audio post.


During audio post the dialog will be edited, ADR may be recorded, Foley will be performed & recorded, sound effects will be created & edited, and the score & source music will be laid back & edited. Then everything will be mixed together. In decently budgeted projects everything except the production dialog was created in audio post. The smaller your budget the MORE you need to do everything in your power to capture solid production sound, as you will not have the luxury of a detailed audio post and will have to rely on the production sound to handle a large portion of the sonic duties in your project.


You can start with "The Location Sound Bible" by Ric Viers of you want a solid, basic understanding of production sound.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Location-Sound-Bible-Professional/dp/1615931201
 
tremendous. thanks for the information.

a few follow up questions....

thanks for the photo.....and it leads me to....
maybe a dumb question----who "claps" the slate? If the sound guy is recording, then is it a P.A., someone else?



For those of you that do sound...have you found that the director needs to be versed in the technical aspects...i.e. what cable goes where, where to place the boom to get sound, etc.... For example: Who makes the call on lavaliers, boom, shotgun, etc..... given a particular arrangement of actors, camera, lights.....

on a small production---short film length.(of the three, lets call it indie--small budget, non-friend crew, paid actors and crew) could one person handle the sound? the wiring, recording, etc......

When a PSM is hired, do they usually have a boom operator that they work with? So when putting together crew....is it enough to find a PSM?

Here are two films---both indie features. One cost about 1 million (I believe) The other was around $500,000. they are both indies, but very different styles. Both worked and I didn't "notice" the sound, which means it was good. Sound like any other big budget film.

When I check the IMDB credits I see about a half dozen sound people for the first, and a dozen for the second. Many of these credits look like post-sound....

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1242599/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1570989/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm


Here's my question......aside from the length of the film, if you were to produce a "short" of the same quality---in regards to sound.....how many people would you need on set if you were going to do it?

Last question:

I've taken a look at some reels on vimeo and mandy... but have not come across quotes.

From what I have seen online I see people quoting around $100 a day(indie shorts)for a crew person. That seems awfully low. If someone wanted to have top quality sound production----indie quality, not Michael Bay movies----how much would a ballpark be.

Thank you again.

---

I'm going to check out that Viers book even though I don't intend on ever recording sound myself. Thanks for the recommendation.
 
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maybe a dumb question----who "claps" the slate? If the sound guy is recording, then is it a P.A., someone else?

Are you asking about Mega-Budget films or indie? It all comes down to budget. On large budgets there will be a person whose entire responsibility is the slate - which has digital time code.

big_size_movie_slate_digital_led_style_clocks_bdc403c8.png


This person also maintains the sync with the sound and camera crews, keeps logs and, possibly, be the data wrangler on digital camera shoots.

At the bottom indie level it can be a PA, a girlfriend, the actor, the director, whomever.

Clapboard-Std.jpg


And a thousand variations in between.


have you found that the director needs to be versed in the technical aspects...i.e. what cable goes where, where to place the boom to get sound, etc.... For example: Who makes the call on lavaliers, boom, shotgun, etc..... given a particular arrangement of actors, camera, lights.....


Again, it all comes down to budget. As a fledgling filmmaker and a novice to sound-for-picture you're probably going to have to learn about production sound and audio post production. Do you have to be a gear slut like me? Probably not, unless you find that you have a feel for it. But, by default, you'll have to learn the basics, which involves learning the "language" and principles of audio. Once you have that you can go exploring on your own.


When a PSM is hired, do they usually have a boom operator that they work with? So when putting together crew....is it enough to find a PSM?

The PSM will bring his own Boom-Op. There's a lot of familiarity amongst the production sound folks at the upper levels, and PSMs tend to work with few boom-ops where there is a comfort level. When there's enough budget there is also a Cable Wrangler, who does a hell of a lot more than keep the cabling organized, and has long served as the "graduate school" course for aspiring PSMs and Boom-Ops.

on a small production---short film length.(of the three, lets call it indie--small budget, non-friend crew, paid actors and crew) could one person handle the sound? the wiring, recording, etc......

It all depends who is "swinging" the boom. Swinging a boom on a film set is a real skill and a real art; it's HARD!


From what I have seen online I see people quoting around $100 a day(indie shorts)for a crew person. That seems awfully low. If someone wanted to have top quality sound production----indie quality, not Michael Bay movies----how much would a ballpark be.

$100/day is usually someone with a prosumer production sound kit looking to gain experience while covering expenses. S/he will record and boom at the same time. How good will it be? It depends upon how much experience they have... And how helpful you are.

You can get a really good PSM/BO for $200 to $350 per day. After that it's how much you want a real sound team to do. At that level they start to charge rental fees for the gear, and get paid an hourly rate, time and a half after whatever hours are agreed upon in the contract, etc. In the current economy it's all very negotiable except for union crews.


I've taken a look at some reels on vimeo and mandy... but have not come across quotes.

We all compete for business, and sometimes we'd rather work to break even than not work at all. And you don't want to out-price yourself when that juicy project happens along. So we get a call or answer an ad and negotiate.
 
Are you asking about Mega-Budget films or indie? It all comes down to budget. On large budgets there will be a person whose entire responsibility is the slate - which has digital time code.

big_size_movie_slate_digital_led_style_clocks_bdc403c8.png


This person also maintains the sync with the sound and camera crews, keeps logs and, possibly, be the data wrangler on digital camera shoots.

At the bottom indie level it can be a PA, a girlfriend, the actor, the director, whomever.

Clapboard-Std.jpg


And a thousand variations in between.

Usually it'll be the 2nd AC (hence the term Clapper/Loader in UK and Australia). On smaller budgets the 2nd AC will wrangle data, though usually the bigger the budget the more likely it is to have at least a Data Wrangler, if not an entire DIT station (assuming a digital shoot; on a film shoot, the 2nd AC/Clapper Loader would load film rather than wrangle data, assuming there's no dedicated Loader).

The 2nd AC keeps logs for camera, the sound guys keep their sound logs, and the Script Supervisor will keep his/her logs which combine certain aspects of both. The 2nd AC will also help to set up Video Village if there's no dedicated Video Split Operator, as well as facilitate the rest of the camera crew (assist with changing lenses, filters, marking actors etc. etc. etc.).

On a low budget production, it can be whoever has a free hand.
 
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