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Sound mix solution for low or zero budget film

As we know, most independent films have tiny budgets and some have none altogether. This thread talks about a possible solution for post production sound mixing for a 90 minute independent film.

In terms of mixing the final sound elements (i.e. dialogue, foley, other sound fx, music/score) to video, we know it is not recommended as best as possible not to use 5.1 surround headphones for the final mix.

After lots of thought, I came to a possible solution for tiny or zero budgets.

How about if one were to compile and mix the the entire film's audio using Dolby 5.1 surround headphones, and thereafter rent a professional studio (i.e. with surround monitors etc.) for a few days, and review the entire project and tweak/adjust the mix levels/other sound tweaks as required?

I think, in terms of an indie solution, this option is better than doing the entire mix and finalizing the project using 5.1 headphones only.

Just to clarify here, no recording is involved here - only sound mixing.

Your opinion?
 
How about if one were to compile and mix the the entire film's audio using Dolby 5.1 surround headphones, and thereafter rent a professional studio (i.e. with surround monitors etc.) for a few days, and review the entire project and tweak/adjust the mix levels/other sound tweaks as required?

Your idea sounds entirely logical on the face of it but when we look at the actual, practical details it wouldn't work, for a number of reasons:

1. Dolby 5.1 headphones are not in fact 5.1, they commonly have just 4 drivers. Compare that with an actual cinema, which have anything from about 20 to over 100 drivers. What you mix on headphones will sound very significantly different in a cinema.

2. Headphones do a poor to mediocre job of simulating Dolby 5.1 but even then, Dolby 5.1 is a consumer format, most commonly used in HDTV broadcasts and on DVDs, it is not a cinema format. Actual cinema sound systems are radically different to consumer (home) cinema systems, which in turn sound different again to surround headphones.

3. The result of #2 and #3 above is that your headphone mix will translate so poorly to an actual cinema (or theatrical dub stage) and need so much "tweaking/adjusting", it would almost certainly be quicker, easier, cheaper and better to just start the whole mix again, from scratch.

4. Assuming a perfectly usable pre-mix, the usual minimum for commercial dub stages is; a day per A/B reel, plus a day for print-mastering, that would be about 6 days for a 90 min feature. The very cheapest commercial theatrical dub stages in North America are probably around $1,500 per day, while the good ones are more like $8k or more but even using the cheapest, that would still be about $9k for the 6 days and still be beyond lo/no budget films. And, this is assuming none of the previous points are true and that it were in fact possible to create a usable pre-mix on headphones in the first place!

G
 
How much were you planning on paying for the whole post mixing package? (hiring someone to mix with the headphones, paying them to re-tweak the mix in the studio, plus the cost of the studio time?

The reason I ask is because I was able to find an Emmy award-winning post sound team to do my no-budget feature film for $5,000 -- not sure how much of that went just to the sound mixer, but that included the sound editing AND studio time, so you might save money and headache if you shop around.
 
there are definitely smaller studios you can use for the initial mixing and then take it to a real theatre for testing. unfortunately I don't think the headphone thing is going to work very well.

If you find someone that does the initial mixing cheaper you can speak with them directly and find out what, if any, part you can organize beforehand to make their job faster/cheaper.
 
The reason I ask is because I was able to find an Emmy award-winning post sound team to do my no-budget feature film for $5,000 ...

This raises a couple of points, of which inexperienced filmmakers are often unaware or fail to fully consider:

1. Audio-post costs are variable, rather than fixed. By far the biggest single determining factor of cost is what the filmmaker wants. A "fix and mix" for example takes a fraction of the time (man hours) and is therefore very cheap compared to a proper audio-post job. Inexperienced filmmakers will often ask me how much the audio-post will cost for their feature. The completely truthful answer to that question in my case would be: Anywhere from just a few thousand to well over a hundred thousand, depending on what the filmmaker wants: Do they want a quick "fix and mix", do they want an audio-post job comparable with average commercially distributed theatrical film standards or do they want something which is somewhere in-between?

2. Due to the nature of film schedules, there are sometimes gaps between projects. These gaps are used for studio maintenance, upgrades, testing and training. It is sometimes possible to get (relatively) ridiculously cheap prices, if you are flexible and your film can be squeezed between other projects. I've certainly done this on quite a few occasions, especially if I've got a new workflow or something else significant to test out or if I want to give an assistant or trainees some experience of fulfilling a more responsible role (overseen by me).

there are definitely smaller studios you can use for the initial mixing and then take it to a real theatre for testing.

There are a range of options available to the low/micro budget filmmaker, depending on what they want, what audio post budget they've allocated and how much risk they're willing to take. Typically, my company would deal with one, more or all of the sound editorial tasks (dialogue editing, Foley, ADR, soft/hard SFX, ambiances and sound supervision/design). Depending on budget I would then create a pre-mix (used to create the final mix in a commercial theatrical dub stage) and maybe a temp mix for a test screening. With a bigger budget, more of the editorial tasks will be outsourced to specialist teams and more/all of the pre-mix would be created on the dub stage. With a lesser budget, I would create the final mix and just test it on a dub stage, make adjustments and test again. With a really tiny budget, the only testing would be the test screening in a cinema but I'm uncomfortable with that and virtually without exception advise against it, as it's a relatively big risk.

G
 
With a really tiny budget, the only testing would be the test screening in a cinema but I'm uncomfortable with that and virtually without exception advise against it, as it's a relatively big risk.

G

Interesting further points. Can you elaborate on the above further when you have a moment? Why is that a relatively big risk in your view? Who in your above sentence/example is arranging the test screening in a cinema?
 
Can you elaborate on the above further when you have a moment? Why is that a relatively big risk in your view?

There's a number of elements which combined add up to a fairly significant risk:

1. Although cinemas are designed/built to a set of acoustic standards, there is still quite a significant variation between them, not uncommonly, that variation from the standards is deliberate. My own local cinema is a reasonably new multi-screen but they've obviously cut some corners in the construction, the screens are not very well acoustically isolated from each other. To counter this, they've rolled-off the bass response and lowered the LFE channel. If I adjust my mix to sound right on one of these screens, then it will sound far too bass heavy in another cinema which has stuck more rigidly/accurately to the standards. Quite a high proportion of cinemas have effectively doctored their sound and how are you going to know if the cinema you are testing in (referencing against) has been doctored and if so, where and by how much? BTW, most of those working at the cinema won't know and the one or two who might know, are extremely reluctant to talk about it!

2. My mix room is good, it's considerably better than even highly specified home or project studios. Here's a photo to give you an idea what we're talking about:

GregMixRoom.jpg


Including professional acoustic designer/consultant, acoustic construction/treatment and the sound system, it probably cost somewhere in the region of $120k to get it to sound as good as it does. Just under half the total cost of the studio. It's about 28ft long and 18ft wide, a decent size and it sounds great. It's perfect for higher budget TV productions and as a high budget feature film sound design room. It's not so great as a theatrical mix room though, it's many times too small! I couldn't even fit in the front theatrical speaker arrays used in cinemas, let alone the numerous surround diffuser drivers and then of course there is the acoustic difference between a large room and a relatively small one. So, despite the fact my room is tuned to the same frequency response of a cinema and is much closer to a cinema than the average small mix room, it's still not particularly close and all the mix decisions I'm making are effectively educated guesses. Considering I'm making many thousands of mix decisions, even if I'm right 99.9% of the time, there are still going to be at least a few nasty surprises.

3. A commercial theatrical dub stage is a completely different animal, it is in effect an actual cinema. The same size and specifications as a cinema but a bit like a super-cinema, with up-rated sound system and acoustics, so it performs as a premier cinema but with more clarity (to spot errors). As far as sound is concerned, it's effectively a reference cinema, spot on the specifications, rather than with some margin of error. Here's an example of a commercial dub stage which I've worked at:

DSC_0132aaa-cropped1.jpg


None of this comes cheap of course. Instead of the $260k or so I've spent on mine, we're up closer to $10m! What do we get for $10m? No more guessing! If there is a problem in one particular cinema then it's because that particular cinema has a problem, not because we've done something wrong with the mix. Across all cinemas as an average, it will sound as we intended when we mixed it on the dub stage. There is no other way of knowing this, except with a commercial dub stage, I certainly can't guarantee it in my room and I can't guarantee it even if referenced against a cinema.

Who in your above sentence/example is arranging the test screening in a cinema?

Usually the producer, as the test screening is usually not for the sole benefit of checking the sound but also to check elements of the picture, the grading for example. Sometimes it is me who arranges the test screening though.

G
 
AudioPostExpert, sir - thanks a lot for the explanation. You have a nice setup there and I admire the dedication to your profession. You are right, to get professional results in terms of post audio, it is highly important for folks like yourselves to be involved. You guys studied this and are professionals in this field, and that is a fact!

Appreciated again!
 
... to get professional results in terms of post audio, it is highly important for folks like yourselves to be involved.

This raises another point of interest. While it's largely pointless to discuss when someone can rightly call themselves a professional, the issue of what constitutes "a professional standard" is very relevant because in my opinion, it's greatly misunderstood by many amateur/indie filmmakers. If we look at say the higher tier film fests, then most/many of the films will have had audio-post done by professionals. At the very highest tier fests, pretty much without exception the audio-post will have been done by pros. However at the mid-high tier level, extremely few (usually none) of the films will have professional quality/standard sound and even at the very top fests a fair proportion won't and even the best films are usually just below or just about of professional standards. How is this possible if they're all paying pros to do the sound and in some cases, top pros? The two most common reasons are:

1. Budget is obviously often a factor. Even if engaging top pros, if you're cutting corners with the budget, they won't be able to dedicate much time to your film and you're going to get essentially some level of a "fix and mix" job. Obviously top pros are going to get you a better quality of "fix and mix" than cheaper, less skilled/experienced pros but you're still going to get a "fix and mix" rather than a proper pro standard mix.

2. The vast majority of amateur and micro/low budget indie films are poorly designed for sound or surprisingly commonly, not really designed for sound at all. So, even if you do have good quality audio-post pros AND they are able to dedicate a reasonable amount of time to your film, they are to a certain/large extent; fighting with one arm tied behind their back! Again, a mix which is *maybe* a step up from a "fix and mix" but still not pro standard.

#2 is worth labouring because there's something the indie filmmaker can do about it, without it necessarily requiring any more budget!

The other point worth mentioning is that many amateur filmmakers tend to think in terms of themselves rather than in terms of their audience. The general public are highly intolerant of poor audio, audio which many filmmakers would consider "good enough". They're also intolerant of weak sound design, although they're rarely able to specifically identify this cause of their disappointment/ambivalence. The vast majority of indie filmmakers set the bars of "good enough" and "pro standard" sound far lower than most others. Commonly either because they personally are not interested/inspired by sound or sound design and/or because the bar is also set artificially low at the vast majority of film festivals.

G
 
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AudioPostExpert, your great insights here are remarkable.

On another note, I am not sure if you have composed film scores, but do you know if Pro Tools (PT) can be used to compose film scores?

In your experience, do you know if this (PT) is what composers use in the industry?

Can one get the video player from Pro Tools on a separate computer monitor and view video in full HD while composing in Pro Tools?

Would appreciate your thoughts if you have used Pro Tools for composing scores. :)
 
I did my first film score in ProTools in 1997, it's improved a bit since then! Nearly all commercial film scores are mixed in ProTools and many use it for composing too, although some prefer other composition packages, Logic or Cubase/Nuendo for examples.

Yes, you can output the video on a separate monitor, in fact, that's the usual setup. You can either simply drag the PT video window to another monitor or do like me and output the video through a separate video card to a completely different device (using "Output Video to PCI" in the Options menu).

G
 
I did my first film score in ProTools in 1997, it's improved a bit since then! Nearly all commercial film scores are mixed in ProTools and many use it for composing too, although some prefer other composition packages, Logic or Cubase/Nuendo for examples.

Yes, you can output the video on a separate monitor, in fact, that's the usual setup. You can either simply drag the PT video window to another monitor or do like me and output the video through a separate video card to a completely different device (using "Output Video to PCI" in the Options menu).

G

Nice to hear that and cheers for the tips.
 
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