SOUND Advice - Running/fast sequences

[jp201]

Hey there guys

Loving this forum, it seems a great community. Im in the process of producing a short and looking for all the help I can get. Ive spent the last few days reading through some previous topics which have been really helpful. Im sure I will have quite a few questions in the coming weeks.

Although I am primarily a sound and music person (ive been training in a studio environment studying sound design and music for a few years) I have very little experience with on location film sound and any help I get is hugely useful. AlcoveAudios blogs were EXTREMELY helpful so thank you for that.

Problem : There are several sections of our film involving chases on foot. The chases take place through (often narrow) city streets, which obviously will have a particular ambience. We've got ideas for most of the visual side of it, a mixture of static shots, camera car, some hand held stuff and a few select tracking shots using dollys (will create another post for this topic). But for sound, espcially footstep stuff, I am at a bit of a loss.

If I run with them on the moving shots you will hear my footsteps

On the static shots I would be seen

If I do Set Wilds I can't see how I could ever get it sync'd properly (to their footsteps) and I still have the problem of hearing my own footsteps.

If I tried Foley I can't see how I could get it to sound believable (the ambience would be all wrong)

Obviously


Please note this is a lo/no budget production so I do not have access to complex equipment other than the basic recording equipment (boom, shotgun mic, lavs, mixer, flash recorder, cardiod condensers etc). However I am very dedicated and will go to great lengths to get what is needed

If someone could point me int he right direction I would be hugely greatful

Thanks a lot

 

[Alcove Audio]

AlcoveAudios blogs were EXTREMELY helpful so thank you for that.

You're welcome.

That is a problem; you have to learn to run silently. It's not easy. Try running with a full glass of water in each hand without spilling it; you will find you need a "rolling" type of gate. You run from the hips, have be "smooth", no bouncing up and down. It's kind of hard to explain. Your best bet is to use lavs if you can.

If I tried Foley I can't see how I could get it to sound believable (the ambience would be all wrong)

Wow! I actually get to write about audio post for a change!

You have to construct the entire scene from the ground (sorry for the pun) up. But that's what audio post is all about. In big budget productions - and quite a few small and mid budget projects - the only production sound in the final mix is the dialog, and anywhere from 20% to 90% of that may be replaced with ADR.

Foley is a really tough gig. I'm finally getting the hang of it myself. You just stand there in your Foley pit (whichever surface is needed) and run in place to the picture. You have to step on the inside of your heel and continue the step to the outside little toe, other wise you get flat footfalls. And don't forget shuffling and all of the other little sounds. (Hey, wait until you do a love scene; it's really weird! All that skin, kissing, etc.)

Then you do a cloth pass; that's right, you recreate the sound of the clothing. If they are wearing anything - like a cop or soldier wearing all of his gear - you have to recreate that as well.

If you don't have a large enough space for a Foley Pit you can record wilds. You just record yourself running, walking, shuffling, whatever. Hold the boom in your hands, point it at your feet and go. Do various perspectives and multiple surfaces as you can't audition anything to picture in the field. One trick is to mark the footsteps in your DAW and make a click track (ten times as long as needed) for each of the various speeds. Load it up into an iPod and play it as your cue/sync. Make sure that you have vocal cues in the iPod (" Cue - 17 minutes, 14 seconds - sneakers, concrete, fast run") and then announce them before you start so you can locate them when you're back in the editing room. You still end up doing a fair amount of cutting, but not as much as cutting in each individual step.

After that is done you have the talent come in and do all of the breathing and other vocalizations.

You put in your own ambience. You can go to the locations and record them yourself. Actually, ambiences are really another construct. Start with "empty street" and then build upon the visual cues - a car goes by, pedestrians, trash can falls over, pigeons fly away, etc.

The secret lies in the mix - the proper blend of volume balance, EQ and reverb(s).

I would recommend the book "The Foley Grail" by Vanessa Ament. A fantastic look into the world of Foley. I read the book, watched the accompanying DVD, and then read it again. It was a HUGE help; brought my Foley work up to a whole new level. I'm right now building a Foley pit for the hard dirt sound. Getting the right sound is a mother humper, but I think I've got it right.


Just for fun - overly simplified but you get the idea...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GyfH9t8JAuo&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GyfH9t8JAuo&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

[jp201]

Wow

I couldn't begin to explain how helpful that is. Having it laid out really gives me an idea of what needs to be done etc. The idea of clicking out the foosteps is also a great one! Thanks

Im guessing for ambience you could take an impulse from the recording locations and use that as a convolution reverb for your foley'd foosteps and shuffling etc Is this something people ever do or do they generally just mock up a false ambience.

 

[Kosh]

Another Home Run, Alcove Audio!

For those of us who do not have Foley pits, what's your take on using digital sound effects purchased from places like Videocopilot or Sound America?

Thanks for the book recommendation - another addition to my library.

 

[Alcove Audio]

do they generally just mock up a false ambience.

You put in your own ambience. You can go to the locations and record them yourself. Actually, ambiences are really another construct. Start with "empty street" and then build upon the visual cues - a car goes by, pedestrians, trash can falls over, pigeons fly away, etc.

A very common practice. You don't need to do your own IRs, although it is fun and it's always a welcome addition to your arsenal; also nice to have for trading with other sound designers.

Another Home Run, Alcove Audio!

Gracias!

For those of us who do not have Foley pits, what's your take on using digital sound effects purchased from places like Videocopilot or Sound America?

I've never used either; I use Sound Dogs and Sonomic for by-the-sound downloads and Sound-Ideas for library purchases. Any quality sound library will do the job. There is the fact that you will have to cut each individual footstep, etc., and most libraries never seem to have everything that you need. You also run the risk of the sound of your film sounding canned by using sounds thousands of others have used.

http://www.sound-ideas.com/sfxmenu-foley.html

Oh, and just for fun, if you aren't performing the footsteps, etc. to picture but rather are cutting/editing them in it's no longer Foley, it's sound FX.