Like when a character makes a certain grunt face, or certain type of sqeal, during a fight/suspense scene, should I storyboard how the actor will move his mouth, so that when it comes to ADR it after shooting, that the I know exactly what sound they should to match that movement? Before I got my actors do do a variety of sounds but found there were quite a few that did not match the shape of the mouths, afterwords. This would be so that actors do not have to wait weeks to months, till the movie is cut, so that therefore, they will still be available since we are doing it during the shooting schedule.
Should I storyboard the sound too?
- Thread starter harmonica44
- Start date
The whole point is to get the production sound right in the first place so you don't have to do ADR or extensive syllable by syllable dialog editing.
Yeah but during fight and action scenes, it is too tough for a boom operator to keep the mic aimed at the actors, mouths, as the actor is constantly moving his head back and forth, and rolling over, etc. Plus the camera is moving all around, so it's difficult to get the mic in close enough whilst keeping it out of frame. I guess I need a new boom op, but I only have one mic for an actor, and I would need to boom three fighters at the same time during.
Or you use lavs. And, you cut so you don't have to see their mouths all the time. BTW, your audience will not notice the little things, especially during action scenes where things move past in half a second.
Just finish this project and move on.
Just finish this project and move on.
Okay thanks. This is for my next project which I haven't started yet. But lavs create static when rubbed against clothing which doesn't work for action scenes, I am guessing.
Lol , you re f*cking crazy man, I swear..
Sometimes I think you re just messing with people on this forum board.
How do you think even think of these questions???
Sometimes I think you re just messing with people on this forum board.
How do you think even think of these questions???
I personally have no particular issue with the questions per se, it's more the manner of response. Most of these threads seem to go liek this:
A: How do I...?
B: Here's how.
A: That's not going to work.
B: Why not?
A: Because I know a guy from London who is my best friend's mum's step brother's cousin's boyfriend and he said I could do it another way.
C: Here's another solution.
A: That's not going to work either.
D: Here's the only other solution.
A: That's not going to work either. I want my shot to look and sound like I have a $30mil budget, but I only have a $30 budget and am not very experienced. I am unwilling to compromise on anything, and if it does not look/sound like it had a $30mil budget I will be unhappy. How do I make this work?
B: Hire a professional
A: But I can't, they might one day br on their way to set and get struck by lightning, crawl to the hospital where they'll try the best they can to kepe him alive, but they weren't banking on the fact that that was the day the hospital was being demolished, and so then he dies. What will I do then, I'll have no-one for audio....
Edit:
I don't mean this in an offesnive way at all. It's just somewhat humorous/frustrating to present 10 different solutions, all of which are 'wrong' or 'can't be done' or don't 'fit the vision'...
Honestly, film budgets aren't ridiculously high just because they felt like making them high. If they could be lower, they would be. The best way to make a shot look like it cost $1mil is to pay $1mil for it.. You can try and cheat it, but you have to make compromises somewhere, and part of that involves going out and testing to see what works and what doesn't.
Every time I start work on a different stock or different camera/format, I test it to see how far under/over exposed I can get before I lose detail. Then I know the stock, and I know what is and what isn't going to work. I could come on here and ask 'Hey guys, I'm shooting on 5219 next week, does anyone know what the range of that stock is?' and I could wait a day or three to get an answer I was happy with. Or, I could that day go out with the camera and shoot a test roll and see exactly for myself how the camera will operate and behave, and how the footage will look.
Which one do you think will do me better when it comes time to actually shoot?
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What you really need to do for both production sound and audio post is hire someone who actually knows what they're doing. That will solve 95% of your sound problems.
I will try hiring again for the next project, for sure. Hopefully who I get, will not back out just before shooting, like the first time.
It is such a crime that nobody has been getting a documentary of this entire filmmaking process. That would be cinematic gold!
Probably the best BTS since 'Lost in La Mancha' about Terry Gilliam's never finished Don Quichot movie.
I did once make a moving storyboard for a commercial to check the timing needed for each shot.
And because the deadline was only few days after the shoot, I put in 'old Batman'-like sound-texts to send it to the audio-guys, so they could prepare the sounddesign before there was any edit at all.
I worked fine. The night after shooting it I locked the edit and sent it to the sounddesigner, so they could do their job, while I would go on compositing and colorgrading.
Because most elements were already there they only had to add 2 sounds from the set, move things a little bit and mix it.
But this is not what you are talking about.
Your question is another patch-question in case things get messed up during a shoot.
You are planning from a failure point of view.
It's better to concentrate on getting it right and recording extra sounds on set is a good idea in most cases.
Extra sounds like the door opening and closing, the watercooker and indeed 'oo' 'ah' 'arlgh!' can be recorded seperately.
Right after you get the shots, be sure to capture audio "wilds" of the actors close to the mic making all the noises they MIGHT make including dialogue.. Best to have them still sorta fight without moving around too much and since its audio only you can get the mic nice and close. This should give you a library of sound to cover most any production sound issue.
Yeah I tried that while on set, but the noises did not match the mouths, in the best takes, so that's why I wonder if I should storyboard it, or at pre-plan the mouth movements. I know it sounds silly, and I'm not trying to troll, but I am trying to think outside the box to prevent the same mistake, and having to pay for it in post for my next project.
I'm not really sure what you could be asking them to say where it would be so drastically different, especially if you're getting wilds the day of. If you can hear them giving you the wilds at half the speed they said their lines in the shot, then pick them up on it. I'm not really sure what the issue is here, unless you've decided you'd rather have a character go 'ooh' when they're normally saying 'aah'.
TV shows ADR all the time, and you can quite often pick it. I've often seen shows where they've added in extra lines, or redubbed lines and you often see the editor cut away from the speaker's face to something else so that the audience doesn't pick it. To the layman, they wouldn't notice any difference, but we know better
(of course it probably helps that the ADR'd lines generally sound like they were recorded in a studio rather than on the set at the same time as everything else)
TV shows ADR all the time, and you can quite often pick it. I've often seen shows where they've added in extra lines, or redubbed lines and you often see the editor cut away from the speaker's face to something else so that the audience doesn't pick it. To the layman, they wouldn't notice any difference, but we know better
(of course it probably helps that the ADR'd lines generally sound like they were recorded in a studio rather than on the set at the same time as everything else)A part of directing a film is actually KNOWING WHAT YOU WANT. The other is actually GIVING DIRECTIONS TO OTHERS SO THEY UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT.
These are the main reasons why you let others handle the technical aspects of filmmaking for you. There will definitely be times where your only option is to do ADR. When you do the ADR session you must KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR, then you must BE ABLE TO GIVE DIRECTIONS SO THE TALENT DELIVERS THAT PERFORMANCE. This is extremely difficult to do if you are handling the technical aspects of the session in addition your directorial responsibilities. So if you do not have the puzzle pieces you need to make the final product that you want it's you who FUBARed; you did not prep properly and/or did not communicate your vision clearly and concisely.
One of the challenges of low/no/mini/micro budget filmmaking is you very rarely have the resources (equipment, budget, time or talent [cast/crew]) to achieve exactly what you want. Then you must be able to compromise/settle for something less than exactly what you want. Low/no/mini/micro budget filmmaking is the art of compromise and "living" within your resources.
To quote Randy Thom, one of my favorite sound designers:
"A technician knows how to avoid mistakes;
An artist knows how to use them."
These are the main reasons why you let others handle the technical aspects of filmmaking for you. There will definitely be times where your only option is to do ADR. When you do the ADR session you must KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR, then you must BE ABLE TO GIVE DIRECTIONS SO THE TALENT DELIVERS THAT PERFORMANCE. This is extremely difficult to do if you are handling the technical aspects of the session in addition your directorial responsibilities. So if you do not have the puzzle pieces you need to make the final product that you want it's you who FUBARed; you did not prep properly and/or did not communicate your vision clearly and concisely.
One of the challenges of low/no/mini/micro budget filmmaking is you very rarely have the resources (equipment, budget, time or talent [cast/crew]) to achieve exactly what you want. Then you must be able to compromise/settle for something less than exactly what you want. Low/no/mini/micro budget filmmaking is the art of compromise and "living" within your resources.
To quote Randy Thom, one of my favorite sound designers:
"A technician knows how to avoid mistakes;
An artist knows how to use them."
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Yeah hopefully next time the sound person will stick, then I can just be free direct and not do the sound as well.
As long as the audience won't know that it doesn't match and it will pass. I mean the biggest example would be how in the video, a character is laughing with her mouth open, but in the audio, it sounds like it's closed. Or a character breaths heavy but the breathes are longer in the video, then in the audio. But as long as the audience will buy things like that in the moment.
As long as the audience won't know that it doesn't match and it will pass. I mean the biggest example would be how in the video, a character is laughing with her mouth open, but in the audio, it sounds like it's closed. Or a character breaths heavy but the breathes are longer in the video, then in the audio. But as long as the audience will buy things like that in the moment.
Make ADR your friend, not your enemy!
After reading some of the other replies and forming a general impression of Harmonica44's reputation on this forum, I'm just gonna say...
I'm writing a response NOT for H44 himself, but for people in general.
The topic of ADR is very near and dear to my heart. I've had some major projects need major ADR. And I've learned some painful lessons about what's what. I've also directed action sequences and, to that end, I want to say emphatically...
DO NOT STORYBOARD THE ACTOR'S FACES IN AN ACTION SEQUENCE.
This is bad idea for two key reasons. The first reason is safety. SAFETY! Why in the world would you add this extra burden to your actors, when their primary focus should be getting the movement right so that they are not hurt, and then, two, getting their emotions right, so the scene looks intense.
The second reason is that you are much better off by letting the actors react naturally. And then later, in post production, you can try to invent some new grunt or squeal and ADR it accordingly. If you try to script a grunt ahead of time, you will probably fail miserably. Your actor will look fake.
The odds of you being a good enough director that you can SCRIPT a grunt ahead of time and know enough about humanity to recreate the perfect sound in post to match that grunt... are low. You're probably not skilled enough to do that. So why invite that burden upon yourself? Find good actors and give them a good enough story to coax their emotions out.
Yes, you will need to ADR the dialogue in the action scene. It is extremely difficult to get perfect production audio in a fistfight (I say this with legit experience). But don't let that be a reason to force odd ADR onto your scene.
If you REALLY REALLY want a particular grunt... then storyboard your sequence so that your actor is facing AWAY from camera at that moment. Then you and your actor will have complete freedom in post to create a really fun noise.
Shanked
After reading some of the other replies and forming a general impression of Harmonica44's reputation on this forum, I'm just gonna say...
I'm writing a response NOT for H44 himself, but for people in general.
The topic of ADR is very near and dear to my heart. I've had some major projects need major ADR. And I've learned some painful lessons about what's what. I've also directed action sequences and, to that end, I want to say emphatically...
DO NOT STORYBOARD THE ACTOR'S FACES IN AN ACTION SEQUENCE.
This is bad idea for two key reasons. The first reason is safety. SAFETY! Why in the world would you add this extra burden to your actors, when their primary focus should be getting the movement right so that they are not hurt, and then, two, getting their emotions right, so the scene looks intense.
The second reason is that you are much better off by letting the actors react naturally. And then later, in post production, you can try to invent some new grunt or squeal and ADR it accordingly. If you try to script a grunt ahead of time, you will probably fail miserably. Your actor will look fake.
The odds of you being a good enough director that you can SCRIPT a grunt ahead of time and know enough about humanity to recreate the perfect sound in post to match that grunt... are low. You're probably not skilled enough to do that. So why invite that burden upon yourself? Find good actors and give them a good enough story to coax their emotions out.
Yes, you will need to ADR the dialogue in the action scene. It is extremely difficult to get perfect production audio in a fistfight (I say this with legit experience). But don't let that be a reason to force odd ADR onto your scene.
If you REALLY REALLY want a particular grunt... then storyboard your sequence so that your actor is facing AWAY from camera at that moment. Then you and your actor will have complete freedom in post to create a really fun noise.
Shanked