Rigging a sound guy...

[dr stilly]

I have a good sound guy with no equipment so I have decided to invest 1K into his entire set up. It is for a feature film. i really want lav mics, im assuming a decent mixer and a recorder and anything else I might have missed. At the mo I have a rode VM and zoom h1 but will prob use on camera for syncing and back up. gonna need xlr inputs obviously.

Can I grab a few starting places to go researching and hunting...

mucho thanks!

 

[knightly]

a backpack/shoulder bag to house the gear with access panels so it can be worn on the front and the controls used while slinging the boom.

mic > internally cabled boom + zeppelin + dead cat > (mixer > cable >) recorder.

Know if the mic needs phantom power as the mixer/recorder will need to provide that (mixer if you decide to go with that, otherwise the recorder).

If you still have funding (which you may not at this point), more microphone options (lavs, PZM, EC handheld, mic stand/s).

 

[Alcove Audio]

$1k is not sufficient to purchase a professional sound rig. Rent!!!

I know that indie types want to own everything, but your job is to direct, not be a gear hound or to be a production sound mixer; a true production sound mixer will have his/her own kit and have preferences for their equipment choices. You can't know everything, and sound-for-picture - if you want to do it right and do it well - takes a long time to learn and is relatively pricey to boot!

I'm just curious; if he's such "a good sound guy" why isn't he investing in the equipment himself? If he's such "a good sound guy" why can't he tell you what you need? If he's such "a good sound guy" what are his credentials?

 

[dr stilly]

he's a studio engineer and he has such a sensitive ear, he records artists for music and really picks up on the slightest thing, he's a perfectionist when recording which is why i like him. He gets in the zone and i can trust him to get on with it. granted, he has never recorded on a movie set but he has done ADR for my short and is willing to get more involved and i know that if i buy equipment and leave it in his hands he'll do the job. he's reliable and passionate about being a crew member for us. a bonus is that he co-owns his own studio so he can also do post-sound adr etc. he has great Mics but i really want lav mics.

Most of all, he is a good guy that i trust. this is essential for a crew member especially somerthing as important as audio. I've know the guy since i was a kid and he could play mozart at 15. So basically I am trying turn a music producer into a film-audio producer and why not.

renting is an option that i am considering. it's just because scheduling is so random that owning my own equipment would be more viable. nothing to do with being indie-indulgent i just feel like if say we secured a sweet location last minute and had to be there next morning only, i'd want the option to have all equipment on hand.

1K is a big stretch for me, i promise i am not being cheap on purpose, this is just the nature of the financial beast. truth is, we had a sound guy who had all his own equipment but he has been booked by a network to work on the Grand Prix so he's had to pull out.

 

[dr stilly]

a backpack/shoulder bag to house the gear with access panels so it can be worn on the front and the controls used while slinging the boom.

mic > internally cabled boom + zeppelin + dead cat > (mixer > cable >) recorder.

Know if the mic needs phantom power as the mixer/recorder will need to provide that (mixer if you decide to go with that, otherwise the recorder).

If you still have funding (which you may not at this point), more microphone options (lavs, PZM, EC handheld, mic stand/s).

Can you recommend a mixer? And what is a zeppelin?

 

[knightly]

My mixer is pretty old, and I don't know what your needs are, you don't necessarily need one if you've only got a single guy as your sound department on set... although having real analog control over the volume is a good thing, but takes a hand to run (which if you're holding a boom overhead, you don't have).

Zeppelin is a band from the 70s... what's that... oh, the other one... it's a capsule that goes around the shock mounted mic to create a dead air space around the mic... then the dead cat (furry thingy) goes over that to diffuse the wind outside... HUGE difference in sound quality on location!

I own my equipment and look for people to run it... often people who are good candidates simply don't have the money to get the gear... or on our sets, are looking to learn a trade from the ground up... I've always bee a proponent of what you're doing, but remember, it's your gear, not his when all is said and done.

AT875 shotgun Mic
Internally wired Boom Pole
Tascam DR100 recorder (perhaps in some kind of wrist mount)
Short XLR run from pole to recorder...

A good ear is worth SO MUCH MORE THAN THE GEAR if you have access to it... and the confidence to ask the director for another take if he doesn't get the sound you'll need later.

You can always build your kit from there.

 

[dr stilly]

thats great. thanks man. that zeppelin sounds like it makes the world of difference, i'll defo invest. i'm gonna have a second sound guy who will be his assistant. I just have this feeling that booming is not worth it unless the mic is top of the range. I feel mid range lavs is more reliable to get good tones. like alot of shots are indoors and i dont really wanna cover the walls in blankets! lol.

i just had an idea. I think i'll boom but also use wired lavs into zoom h1 on the body as a back-up (or front-up).

Will have a look at your suggestions. cheers!

 

[Alcove Audio]

what is a zeppelin?

Mic Zeppelin

Zeppelin Disaster

Led Zeppelin

 

[Alcove Audio]

Booming is ALWAYS worth it. The closer in you can get the mic, and the more accurately it can be aimed the better.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Since I'm feeling whimsical...

the dead cat (furry thingy) goes over that to diffuse the wind outside...

Dead Cat (over a blimp/zeppelin)

A Live Cat

A Kit Kat

A Hep Cat

 

[Alcove Audio]

And now that I've got that out of my system...

This is sort of tangential, but here goes...

In this conversation, in filmmaking and in life in general, you need clear communications. You, as a director, will need to give clear, concise, complete instructions and information. Background information is also very useful. From your original post:

I have a good sound guy with no equipment so I have decided to invest 1K into his entire set up.

My first instinct is to ask questions, which I did. I'm very cautious by nature. I've been in the entertainment industry - meaning I've made money at it, sometimes very good money, and met and worked with some very cool people. But I've also seen and, early on, been the victim of, some very frustrating (and nasty, and... use the worst of your imagination) situations. My first instinct is self protection, and when I give advice my instinct is to advise caution.

I'm just curious; if he's such "a good sound guy" why isn't he investing in the equipment himself? If he's such "a good sound guy" why can't he tell you what you need? If he's such "a good sound guy" what are his credentials?

From your next posts:

he's a studio engineer --- i can trust him to get on with it. granted, he has never recorded on a movie set but he has done ADR for my short and is willing to get more involved --- he's reliable and passionate about being a crew member. a bonus is that he co-owns his own studio so he can also do post-sound adr etc.

i'm gonna have a second sound guy who will be his assistant.

I would have responded very differently with all of this information. I know the guy a little - if your information is correct. See, again, I'm hedging.

My different response to your complete information would have been more like:

1. Film sound and production sound are very different, but at least he speaks the "language."

2. I would have put up a few links where you and he could read up on the basics of production sound.

3. Get him to join us here at IndieTalk. The conversation between him and myself and AudioPostExpert and Knightly and the rest of us who have experience with production sound and audio post would have (will?) provide a lot of instruction and information to the rest of the forum.

4. Having two sound people on your set is a Godsend. Now you have someone who can boom, and someone who can listen!

So the point of all this drivel is that you should provide clear, concise information. Oh, BTW, learn to use capital letters at the beginning of sentences. It's presentation. Here on IndieTalk we try to uphold those types of standards. And please, it's not snobbery; I and all of us at IndieTalk want our friends and peers here to succeed. Your professional career depends upon lots of seemingly stupid little things. A solid understanding and usage of grammar, punctuation and the like puts forth a professional image. And, once again, is more clear and concise.

So Uncle Bob will leave you with that last little bit of advice. Have your friend join us. I've made the exact transition he's going to make, so I'm sure we'll get along.

 

[rayw]

And now that I've got that out of my system...

Rats.
I was rather enjoying that smart alecky roll.



Yeah, I cetainly don't know much but I'd think a studio engineer transitioning into film/ENG-like work would already be doing his or her own homework and providing a shopping list - and their own investment.

Something stinks in

 

[knightly]

The conversation between him and myself and AudioPostExpert and Knightly and the rest of us who have experience with production sound and audio post would have (will?) provide a lot of instruction and information to the rest of the forum.

Wow, did I just get lumped in (by name mind you) with the pros on the board? I've made it!
@RayW: As long has he knows a hawk from a handsaw...

I've been more trusting... and have been screwed, still trying to wrangle the guy up who stole my dolly! Left school, changed phone numbers, perhaps I can get hold of his brother... Lots of equipment missing or disrespected on set as well (not saying it would be, just that it happens and it sucks -- so I get what Alcove is saying).

As a studio engineer, he should also be able to read those graphy things that all microphones seem to come with and understand the stats with them better than I do Those will help make determinations about what to buy... the shotgun takes practice to use as well... it's not something to just pick up and think you can grab great sound, he'll be standing the whole time on set with his arms raised above his head doing a very delicate dance of motion with the mic on the end of an 8' stick. He can't move it when someone's talking or the pole/mount/cable/blimp will potentially ruin the take by making noise... so that's gotta be part of the on set rehearsal with the actors as well.

Make sure he puts the time in with the equipment with headphones on to get a better sense of what he's about to get himself in for. My son was our boom op for a long time, he had a beautiful shot (he's athletic with martial arts training) where the actress walked from one end of the house to the other. He had to stand in the center of the shot (we cut away when he was in frame) and lean & pull back with the arms as he swung the boom around while she talked through the whole walk... the room was longer than wide, so it was necessary for him to reach forward to the extent to get her audio at the door, but lean back as she cleared the wall in front of him... while doing so and keeping the mic pointed at her mouth, he had to avoid the floor lamp below followed by the drop lights in the middle fo the room, and finally one more floor lamp to keep her in "focus" with the mic... we did 8 takes of it to get the audio right... the camera had no problems as it was a simple pan for them.

It's one of the least glamorous jobs on set, but I'll be honest, I'd rather teach a new camera op to shoot every day than a new boom op.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

So basically I am trying turn a music producer into a film-audio producer and why not.

Because the two are not as closely related as most people would think. Many people in the film/TV audio world have come from the music world (including me), so it can be done but it takes: A great deal of retraining with experienced film/TV guys. Different equipment, differently designed mix rooms and live rooms and different techniques, skills and work-flows/methodology. While someone from the music side will have useful general knowledge compared to a complete beginner, there will also be a fair bit of "un-learning" to do, as many of the recording, mixing and mastering techniques used in music production are inappropriate for film/TV.

One of the areas which is most difficult to learn is translation (how the mix plays when moved from the studio to the cinema of TV). Do not expect a film mix made in a music studio (even a very good music studio and highly experienced music producer) to translate well or achieve the specifications required for theatrical use or TV broadcast.

It's not at all uncommon for music producers to be commissioned to create TV and/or film mixes for two main reasons: Most music studios and producers require far less investment in equipment and specialist training and are therefore much cheaper to hire and secondly many film makers do not appreciate the vast differences between music production and film/TV audio, it's all just sound out of speakers isn't it? Many audio post professionals have earned good money re-mixing/re-working/fixing audio post originally created by music producers!

G

 

[dr stilly]

Man why do audio conversations always end up in a snarling fistfight?! this is the reason i avoided record shops my whole life

Honestly I could let him do the equipment shopping but I kind of like to learn (from you guys and others) and I like shopping for equipment, plus I feel that I know film-sets better than he does, however I will ask him to join this forum, but, his english is worst than mine therefore he may not be the indie talk calibre *boom* lol

Anyways, i am an optimist and will not be deterred, this guy is going to be the best damn sound guy in town and I'm gonna help him get there...or kill him if he f**ks up! lol

I think im leaning towards renting equipment for him to use. Before then I'll do a short with him to practice with my RodeVM and zoomH1.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Anyways, i am an optimist and will not be deterred, this guy is going to be the best damn sound guy in town and I'm gonna help him get there...or kill him if he f**ks up! lol

Your music producer friend will make a few "f**k ups" but nothing which will look too out of place on youtube. If you're looking to get into some festivals though, there's virtually no chance you'll get a decent sound mix.

Having a music studio not built or calibrated to film or TV standards is a hugely serious handicap on it's own, add to that; inexperience, lack of knowledge and other equipment deficiencies and you're just starting to understand the issues. It's like taking a really good rally driver and telling him to enter a forumla 1 grand prix. It's all driving, which he's very good at and he has his own car, so he'll be good at grand prix too, no? In fact he'll have to build a completely new car and almost learn how to drive again from scratch. A lot of his existing knowledge will put him a few steps ahead of a complete beginner but still, the chances of him even getting as far as qualifying for a grand prix race are pretty much zero.

I have to say, I've seen this attitude many times from inexperienced film makers, it's one of the main things which makes them inexperienced. If you're dedicated, ambitious, intelligent and an experienced music producer, that's a good starting point but nothing more! To do work to acceptable festival standards or professional standards is going to require the correct equipment and a great deal of time spent with experienced professionals, learning how they do it. The knowledge required has been developed over the course of 80+ years and handed down from master to apprentice. You can't learn how to do audio post from books or trial and error alone.

I'm not having "a go" at music producers, I've been one and I'm sure you know some of the artists I've produced. But, it's a different skill set and a music studio might look similar to dubbing theatre but they're usually significantly different.

G

 

[knightly]

Keep in mind that the advice is intended to help... but mine comes from a place recently where you're at... and I am a huge proponent of owning your production kit as often you'll have rotating staff, best to have the gear you need, then work on finding and fostering a relationship with the people to run it.

The pros here are more distant from the low/no - budget mentality (no offense, that's a good thing for you all) and deal with larger budgeted things and professional workflows with more (expensive) gear and a different immediate target for the eventual display of our work. Their advice is fantastic! I often find I have to strain their advice through a colander to get out only the stuff that fits my reality.

They WANT you to do well, they know how to make your stuff sound good, their reality often doesn't fit yours/mine... but they are absolutely right in what they say about all this, we just have to find the nuggets we can implement... and starting with someone on that boom with a good ear that you trust, is better than I've dealt with on many, many shoots!

 

[dr stilly]

Hey i know the advise is good and i am very aware how important sound is...to be honest if you asked me what is more important in a film, audio or visual?? i'd say audio 60/40 in terms of importance.

It's all worth a think and yeah its good having pro's raise the bar for us, reach for the stars and you might hit the moon as they say. So the moon it is then lol.

Im gonna do some research on all ends. but do think that the major shortcomings of most no-budget indie shorts and full features out there is THE GOOD EAR. Just like THE BAD EDITING. its almost like some people dont even scrutinize their audio with good headphones before they release it. thats not my style thankfully.

But in my opinion it is not impossible to get good sound on no-budget. we no-budget filmmakers are magicians. just MO

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Knightly: I was mainly commenting on Dr. Stilly's statement "a bonus is that he co-owns his own studio so he can also do post-sound adr etc.".

I'm assuming, maybe wrongly (?), that many people here are looking to get their film/s into one of the many film festivals and/or eventually make the jump into the professional world of film (and/or TV). Most of my advice is aimed at these people but should potentially be useful to anyone at any level of film making who is interested in improving the quality of their films through understanding how and why things are done at a professional level.

I freely admit that my knowledge of no-budget film making is non-existent because obviously no-budget film makers can't afford to get me involved in their projects. So my experience is generally limited to projects with budgets between several tens of thousands of dollars and several million. At the middle and lower end of this scale I see many films made with love and dedication which are not fit for purpose (festivals, etc.) because of attempted (false) economies. I've got a booking later in the year for a film which was completed about 5 years ago but was rejected because of poor audio (even though he paid for it at the time). It's taken the film maker all this time to raise the private capital to re-do the sound. This scenario is surprisingly common and financially and emotionally destroys so many potentially talented film makers. What's more, this scenario is becoming increasingly more common as cheap technology offers the potential of high quality film making for relatively small budgets.

In my experience, the problems are often not based in the actual size of the budget but specifically in the planning and sometimes in the budget allocation. Again, in my experience, this is commonly due to many film makers having a good understanding of issues regarding the creation of the visual images but very little understanding (or interest) in the sound.

The above is the background to my advice in this forum.

G

 

[knightly]

Fantastic reply! That's a really interesting examination of one of the reasons films fail (important to know if one wants to avoid those pitfalls). Nice to know your analytical vector as well

I'd love to throw you on a no budget set/project so you can see what bits fit for you (I know this would be a complete anathema to the whole professional thing you have going on... but I was making 70k a year fixing computers and networking, and still did some pro bono work and was able to use those projects as places to try new things that I couldn't in my professional life. It may be enlightening (or perhaps a little discouraging) to see how the other half lives here

@stilly: we do make magic... there's now way we should be able to do what we do with the minimal amount of budget we throw at it... creativity is currency!