Rehearsing vs. editing Dialogue

[chenjie108]

Hi! Here's my question:

I've heard their should always be at least the smallest gap of silence between lines of dialogue, to give the editor leeway to work on it in post. But if a character interrupts somebody or talks over them, does this rule still apply?

(I don't think so, but just making sure...thanks!)

 

[mus]

If a character interrupts, then the rule doesn't apply (assuming you're using a take where both the interruptor and interruptee are talking)

you could always edit it to make it seem like one character interrupted another. this is an instance where those seconds of silence come in handy.

 

[FilmmakerJ]

I think it's important not to think too much about this concern.

In the world of voice over, it is very important to consider where to put silences or to make sure that your actor pauses between certain lines, because in that case you aren't hampered by the drama of the scene and the actor's facial expressions. So you can make the actor pause almost wherever, and then edit the dialogue down to the best takes of the best bits and make it really tight for use with later animation.

In live-action, you don't have that same luxury. So I wouldn't worry about putting in pauses too much during the shots themselves.

However, the ONE place you must always be sure to leave room and quiet space are the "heads" and the "tails" of each shot. Make sure to leave between 2 and 5 seconds of quite space before and after your actors speak, this will then help you to inter-cut your footage much more easily than if you had cut the video right at the instant a character finished their lines. This has caused me many problems in the past. So watch your "heads" and "tails."

 

[Sweetie]

Yes and no.

As Mussonman partially mentioned. Most of the time you can create an overlap, where there wasn't one. You cannot create space if there is already an overlap.

Both ways have their advantage and their issues.

From my experience, it'll mostly it'll come down to how confident you are with the pacing, not only of that scene, but of all the other scenes as a whole. If you think there is a chance you'll need an adjustment, you'll want that space.

There is a downside to not overlapping. If forces you to make an edit that you may have otherwise preferred to avoid.

Another part of the equation is your confidence in your story and how it translates to a visual storytelling medium. In other words, will you need to alter the story in post production. Overlapping may reduce your options. But reshoots can also help in that regard, assuming that option is available to you.

There are other issues which will come up depending on various issues.

I've personally prefered not to overlap, for both when editing and directing. Over time I'm gaining more and more confidence in my work where I'm leaning the other way.

In the end, you should really talk with your editor. If you don't, perhaps you should consider shooting both ways as your best (abeit time expensive) option if you don't have the experience to make that call yourself.

Good luck.

 

[FilmmakerJ]

Yes and no.

As Mussonman partially mentioned. Most of the time you can create an overlap, where there wasn't one. You cannot create space if there is already an overlap.

Both ways have their advantage and their issues.

From my experience, it'll mostly it'll come down to how confident you are with the pacing, not only of that scene, but of all the other scenes as a whole. If you think there is a chance you'll need an adjustment, you'll want that space.

There is a downside to not overlapping. If forces you to make an edit that you may have otherwise preferred to avoid.

Another part of the equation is your confidence in your story and how it translates to a visual storytelling medium. In other words, will you need to alter the story in post production. Overlapping may reduce your options. But reshoots can also help in that regard, assuming that option is available to you.

There are other issues which will come up depending on various issues.

I've personally prefered not to overlap, for both when editing and directing. Over time I'm gaining more and more confidence in my work where I'm leaning the other way.

In the end, you should really talk with your editor. If you don't, perhaps you should consider shooting both ways as your best (abeit time expensive) option if you don't have the experience to make that call yourself.

Good luck.

Agreed.

You have to be fairly sure about the pacing and the mood of your different scenes to know whether or not you have to treat the shooting differently in order to (more easily) fine-tune it later.

 

[directorik]

I think it's important not to think too much about this concern.

I think it's very important to think a lot about this concern. Recording
good, clean, clear dialogue tracks while shooting can save a lot of time
and issues when it comes to post production for low budget filmmakers.
Most do not have access to top post audio recording and mixing studios.

Sweetie made great points.

chenjie108, there are so many methods to use when recording I'm glad
you are being skeptical when you hear you should "always" do something
- or "never" do something. the method I use is to change the pacing of
the dialogue with alternate takes. I'll do a few with the actors overlapping
each other then I'll shoot a take or two with them not overlapping. That
way in the editing room I have choices. But very often I find what I know
works best (for me) during the rehearsals and just record the scene with
the overlapping dialogue.

I suggest you grab a couple of friends (they don't need to be actors) and
shoot a scene trying different methods to see what works for you. You don't
need lighting you don't even need to record great audio because it's just to
learn.

 

[FilmmakerJ]

I think it's very important to think a lot about this concern. Recording
good, clean, clear dialogue tracks while shooting can save a lot of time
and issues when it comes to post production for low budget filmmakers.
Most do not have access to top post audio recording and mixing studios.

Sweetie made great points.

chenjie108, there are so many methods to use when recording I'm glad
you are being skeptical when you hear you should "always" do something
- or "never" do something. the method I use is to change the pacing of
the dialogue with alternate takes. I'll do a few with the actors overlapping
each other then I'll shoot a take or two with them not overlapping. That
way in the editing room I have choices. But very often I find what I know
works best (for me) during the rehearsals and just record the scene with
the overlapping dialogue.

I suggest you grab a couple of friends (they don't need to be actors) and
shoot a scene trying different methods to see what works for you. You don't
need lighting you don't even need to record great audio because it's just to
learn.

You're right about all that.
I guess I didn't mean what I intended that to mean.

My better advice would be to approach a scene on a technical basis in pre-production: figure out how you want to shoot a scene before hand and how you might want to give yourself different options. But when you're "on set" and working with the actors, unless you have enough extra time in your shooting schedule to spare, it might not be as practical to start thinking too much about where to put pauses unless its becomes necessary for a scene to work.

But by all means, if you have enough shooting days lined up, then you should definitely try to shoot each scene or each page of dialogue a few different ways, especially if you're unsure about what sort of feeling you want to have for that particular moment in the film.

Having gone to a film college, I've been stuck with very short turn-around times on shooting because of equipment return times, crew and actor schedules and such, so we only have about 6 days split amongst two weekends to get everything shot. So in my case, trying to shoot an entire scene multiple different ways just wasn't ever an option.

But if you have that option, then it will help immensely later on if you can give you and your editor different ways to tackle each scene, and build the best film possible.

 

[directorik]

Having gone to a film college, I've been stuck with very short turn-around times on shooting because of equipment return times, crew and actor schedules and such, so we only have about 6 days split amongst two weekends to get everything shot.

I've never been to film college. But as a low budget filmmaker I
always have been stuck have deadlines and schedule concerns
including equipment rentals, cast and crew availability and shoot
times before we hit overtime we can't afford. I have shot entire
features in 6 days.

So in my case, trying to shoot an entire scene multiple different ways just wasn't ever an option.

I make the time to shoot (and record) what is needed. In my case
sometimes shooting an entire scene multiple different ways is
essential. I would rather spend an extra five/ten minutes on a scene
that requires it than get hurt in post production. Not every single
scene in every movie requires overlapping dialogue so as a low
budget filmmaker I take time where it's needed and save time on
another scene. Learning to manage the shoot day is one hell of a
challenge.

Each filmmaker has their own method. It's interesting to hear how
others handle with the same situation.

 

[trueindie]

chenjie108, there are so many methods to use when recording I'm glad
you are being skeptical when you hear you should "always" do something
- or "never" do something.

^^
This

the method I use is to change the pacing of
the dialogue with alternate takes. I'll do a few with the actors overlapping
each other then I'll shoot a take or two with them not overlapping. That
way in the editing room I have choices. But very often I find what I know
works best (for me) during the rehearsals and just record the scene with
the overlapping dialogue.

^^^
And this

 

[Alcove Audio]

How you shoot and how you cut will determine a lot of the dialog editing. When dialog recorded on the set overlaps it restricts the amount of dialog editing you can do. However, I do understand that NOT letting the actors speak over each other can change the intensity of the scene. However, you always want to give your editors - both audio and visual - lots of options. This is why doing a few takes without overlapping dialog (after shooting exactly what you want) and dialog wilds can be a huge help to the dialog editor(s). You can always cut looser, tighter or overlap in post.

I've had situations where I asked if the edit could be tighter (or looser) for dialog flow purposes, and I've even asked for edits that would allow overlapping dialog. I worked on a project several years ago where an important scene just wasn't working at all. Being the last stop (as audio post is with most low/no/mini/micro budget projects) they were hoping that I could save it. My problem as the dialog editor was that I couldn't get a naturally flowing conversation. What I finally did was cut the dialog to sound natural while ignoring the visuals altogether. Of course, it wasn't even close to being in sync with the picture, but the intensity was there. The director went back to the editor and had him edit the visuals to the dialog; it worked great! Although the editor was very upset that we had messed with his visual flow.

 

[chenjie108]

Thanks everyone, sound advice (haha, get it?)
Especially Directorik's bits (that trueindie highlighted), I will go for this.

 

[Sweetie]

So in my case, trying to shoot an entire scene multiple different ways just wasn't ever an option.

If this is the case, I'd always lean towards to the option you consider the best for the situation.

I would rather spend an extra five/ten minutes on a scene
that requires it than get hurt in post production.

Very wise words there.

What I finally did was cut the dialog to sound natural while ignoring the visuals altogether.

Some visual editors are taught this technique. I feel it's an important technique to use when budgets are tight (or non-existent).

The director went back to the editor and had him edit the visuals to the dialog; it worked great! Although the editor was very upset that we had messed with his visual flow.

Shit happens. He'll get over it. I wish this would happen more often. It's a way better option than having the whole scene disjointed. It does suck sometimes if it'll paint you into a corner, but so long as there's a good solution in the end, you simply make it happen.

 

[Cracker Funk]

Lots of good advice has been given here.

There are plenty of times when I want actors to talk over each other, but generally speaking, I only want them to do that if both of their mouths are on camera. If only one person's mouth-movement is being focused on, it sure does make editing a whole lot easier if they give each other a chance to finish their lines.

Then there's the question of how much improv you allow and/or encourage and that gets things a little more complicated.