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Question about which gun props are the right choice.

H

harmonica44

I have been looking around online and it seems that the best gun props are the ones at shortyusa.com. They are not airsoft, and are designed to look more real therefore. They also have actual blowback on the bolts when you pull the trigger, and smoke comes out. The hammers also move correctly as well, which is what I want for one close up shot.

However they do not spit casings. I cannot find any simulation prop guns that spit them. I know you can add them in post with VFX, but I would like to get as much right on set as possible, to save money in post duties. Are there any guns just like shorty's but can spit casings convincingly as well?
 
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Have you checked with The Specialists?
http://thespecialistsltd.com/prop-firearms/blank-firing-guns/pistols

I just use real guns with blanks because that's what I have. I understand that Canadian law is different so you don't have access to an armory like mine, but you could check with a local armorer and see what they would charge you to do the one close up scene. I checked for armorers in your area and didn't find any. You might have better luck asking people in your area.
 
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Well, if you don't have the money to hire an armourer/use real guns, then I think you're left with the option of doing the casings in post.

Can't have your cake and eat it too ;)
 
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Okay thanks. I thought since they have guns that are designed to simulate blow back and hammer movements, and smoke, that it would be logical to have the guns simulate casings. I mean what's the point of inventing guns for making movies, that simulate, when a large part of the simulation is not there, and there is a huge flaw in them? It seems like the replica makers would have thought of that.

But I would have to hire a post guy to do it and will research if that costs more than a weapons handler on set with real guns.
 
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Oh I see, thanks. I thought they were real guns firing casings, but they are fake guns that shoot 'em. I'm guessing they have the same legalities, as other movie simulation guns. So you have to use a different casing, everytime you pull the trigger, right? You cannot reload the same casings, back into the clip and do it all over again. The casing has to actually 'fire', right? Do they make replica guns, where the same casings can be reloaded and spat out over and over again, by a separate compressed air tank inside? I'm guessing that would be cheaper to pull the trigger everytime, if they made them
 
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I don't know of anyone that makes a prop gun that uses compressed air/CO2 to eject empty casings. The point of blanks is that they cause the action to cycle, which ejects the spent cartridge, and create muzzle flash. A proper prop gun should not be able to chamber (let alone fire) a live bullet.

In reference to me using actual firearms, it's a budget thing. Every person on set on any day when weapons will be present is required to go to the range with me and receives a course on firearm safety and proper handling. We also fire live rounds at the range so that the actors know what to expect. Blanks pack much less punch than live rounds, but it gives them a point of reference. On the set, all weapons are checked a minimum of five times to verify that they are not loaded and no live ammo is allowed on set. When firearms are used but not fired, all of the bolts/firing pins/strikers are removed and solid magazines that don't hold ammo are inserted into the wells of automatics. Dummy rounds are used in revolvers. If you are not a qualified firearms instructor/armorer, hire one.
 
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Actually I'll just get the blank firing guns most likely, so the actors do not have to use real guns and have that training and hire inspectors. That's probably what I'll likely do. I just have to find out which is cheaper between blank firing guns, and air compressed guns, and having to hire someone to put the casings in, in post.
 
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I think you misunderstand, a gun that fires blanks is a REAL gun. Unless you can afford a professional firearms handler, stick with airsoft/co2 guns. Guns, even co2 guns, need proper handling. You could ask Brandon Lee about his experiences with guns that "fire blanks", except he was shot and killed by one, and is no longer with us.
 
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I don't know why you wouldn't just do the blowback, muzzle-flash, casings, etc... in post. It is SO easy and cheaper than buying special weapons. I've seen professional films and television shows that use plastic/rubber guns and make it all look totally real in post...

This BTS video of Once Upon a Time In Mexico shows how Robert Rodriguez did it. The scene I'm talking about starts at 2:30 in the clip...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKMB6uYCk-E#t=2m30s

And here's a really good tutorial on how to do the blow-back...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8d-NTUhsiQ
 
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Well I would probably have to hire a VFX person to do it, and well... I don't want to shoot a whole project, only to find out that it's not do-able. Like it was shot wrong, and now a waste and cannot be done. I don't know all the technical stuff to shoot right and hand it over to VFX person. It just seems more would go wrong in that case, but my ears open to what I need to know for that...

I was also watching an episode of film riot on that, but they said that getting actors to act out the blow back, as oppose to guns that have it, comes off looking fake on the actor's part. But if they got away with it, Once Upon a Time in Mexico, maybe it's good. I just don't want to shoot a whole gun fight and have it be unusable, in post cause of bad acting, or being shot wrong for the effects.
 
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harmonica44 said:
Well I would probably have to hire a VFX person to do it, and well... I don't want to shoot a whole project, only to find out that it's not do-able. Like it was shot wrong, and now a waste and cannot be done. I don't know all the technical stuff to shoot right and hand it over to VFX person. It just seems more would go wrong in that case, but my ears open to what I need to know for that...

I was also watching an episode of film riot on that, but they said that getting actors to act out the blow back, as oppose to guns that have it, comes off looking fake on the actor's part. But if they got away with it, Once Upon a Time in Mexico, maybe it's good. I just don't want to shoot a whole gun fight and have it be unusable, in post cause of bad acting, or being shot wrong for the effects.
Click to expand...

This is why you shoot test footage of stuff you're unsure of. Shoot a "short film" of just your shoot out/fire fight and see if you can make it work.
 
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harmonica44 said:
Okay thanks. It's mainly the acting I am worried about. The test footage will be with friends, but hopefully when the real deal comes, the actors can act out the blowback simulation.
Click to expand...

Make sure they don't overact it, though. Many starting actors kick up at the elbow when they pretend to fire a handgun, which is pretty easily seen as fake unless they're using a MASSIVE handgun; have them bounce between 30 and 45 degrees at the wrist to simulate it correctly. With rifles, just have them pull it back into their shoulder and lightly twist, the muzzle jump is very subtle on a rifle as the body absorbs the impact.
 
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It's probably cheaper to hire a VFX guy then having proper safety on set. Just bring the VFX guy to the scene and he/she can give advice on what would work well. But casing are easy to add because they happen so quickly so there is little editing required in reality. If you need the casings to interact with the environment then cut away to a shot of a real casing hitting the ground.
 
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