story Protecting story ideas?

[Joe999]

I have been brainstorming a half dozen story ideas for a screenplay, have each one fleshed out to about a page 'treatment' each. Is that enough specifics for copyright? I should think so. I know the stories will morph with time, but I want to protect the ideas before I share them with even my blood relatives, let alone a script consultant-mentor. I do not believe '[story] ideas are a dime a dozen' (if that is true I have $5 for anybody wanting to hand over to me 600 story ideas I can use as my own!).

 

[clive]

Simple answer is NO... it isn't enough.

Even if you believe your idea is genuinely original, any writer could develop a similar concept and no court would be able to tell from a one page treatment, whether the concept had been stolen or if it was just a coincidence.

The more detail there is, the less likely it is that the two projects will be identical.

So, in real terms you'll need to expand those "one page" notes to at least fifty page step outlines, before you even consider trying to copyright them.

Despite your best efforts, it's highly unlikely that your ideas are SO original that no other writer in the world isn't developing similar concepts.

 

[Joe999]

Simple answer is NO... it isn't enough. Even if you believe your idea is genuinely original, any writer could develop a similar concept and no court would be able to tell from a one page treatment, whether the concept had been stolen or if it was just a coincidence.

So I have an idea for a movie, here it is in less than one page: a handsome young lad, a poor artist, wins a ticket in a poker game to go to America on the Titanic. On the ship's journey he falls in love with a beautiful woman (whom he rescues from a suicidal attempt to jump overboard because she hates her situation of being engaged to a rich snob). A romance ensues, she dumps the snob to the chagrin of her mother, and falls in love with the poor artist. The ship sinks, she lives, the young lad drowns. If I can get funding, you are saying the courts would allow my idea as 'original'?

The more detail there is, the less likely it is that the two projects will be identical.

Agreed.

So, in real terms you'll need to expand those "one page" notes to at least fifty page step outlines, before you even consider trying to copyright them.

That seems a bit excessive.

Despite your best efforts, it's highly unlikely that your ideas are SO original that no other writer in the world isn't developing similar concepts.

That would be hard to determine, a bit of a Schrödinger's Cat dilemma in terms of finding out if true or not (Schrödinger basically said you can not observe a cat/atom without altering its behaviour, so you can never really know its state unobserved); i.e. if I were to share my ideas with the world, how could I know if other writers were developing similar concepts since they might just claim they were after taking my ideas and developing them, etc. We would need to e.g. have 1000 writers each share all their ideas they are developing, then look at the ideas and see how much cross similarity there is; but I doubt writers would be willing to hand over their index card file stash of ideas for such a study.

 

[clive]

Listen, if you've already decided what the answer is, don't waste people's time by asking for information.

I've told you what the legal situation is, you can either accept that it's the case, or go find paid for legal advice, or ignore the advice and live with the consequences.

Pretty much nothing pisses me off more than people who waste my time... especially in the run up to Cannes.

I actually had to attend paid for producer seminars and read books by entertainment lawyers to find out what I told you... a significant investment of time and money. All you had to do was ask and you got all that study time for free.

If you don't think people here are qualified to answer your question, why ask, for God's sake?

Go get some books on entertainment law, attend some seminars... prove me wrong, by winning a copyright case in court. And whilst you're at it get some books on the history of physics as well.

The Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment was designed to show how stupid quantum mechanics is as a theory... it wasn't a proof that observation altered the cat... it was taking the piss. Pretty much the only other thing that pisses me off more than people who waste my time, are people who talk about physics, without having a background in it.

 

[VPTurner]

Before I knew Terminator 2 was in pre-production, I wrote an entire screenplay around a mechanical hand found at a crime scene. I was able to copyright it because it was a complete work and clearly different from Terminator 2. It was more along the lines of "Dirty Harry Meets the Terminator".

If I wrote a one page synopsis as opposed to a full treatment, I could copyright it, but the chances of it standing up in court are slim. Now I did register my 7 page short film script recently.

And absolutely you could write a love story set on the Titanic as long as the characters are different and there is enough originality in execution. Cameron does not own the rights to that historical event. There were hundreds of survivors on whom to base a story. Cameron's concept involved a symbol, the Heart of the Ocean, and the treasure hunters bent on finding it.

It is about time you realized the nature of the universe of which you are a part.

 

[oakstreetphotovideo]

I'm working with a script writer, now. She is bouncing ideas off me and we are discussing the issues we may have with shooting it, etc. For every original idea she throws at me, I can cite a movie that has used a similar idea. She hasn't seen some of the movies or read some of the books I've read. I'm pretty sure she is coming up with these things on her own (at least at the conscious level), but in general terms, we are just remixing ideas and concepts into our own [original] stories.

One of the most original movies I've seen in the past 10 years was "The Matrix". Most of the concepts in the Matrix had already been done, but the details, and especially the characters made the movie worth watching 3 times. Character development and/or interesting characters are obviously very important to a movie. It is the characters (their depth, originality, believability, and familiarity) that draw me into a story and make a movie/story unique and entertaining for me.

Clive, Good luck at Cannes. I've finished coding VKey2f and it has full 128 bit/pixel support in Motion and FCP. I'm still hammering on the documentation; trying to make it so people can understand it ... I'm too damn close to the code, if you know what I mean.

 

[MadMan]

The idea your trying to copyright sounds very familiar... lol...

 

[clive]

Thanks Doug, look forward to testing out the new Vkey... I mean the old one was totally the cat's whiskers, so very excited. Especially about testing it out in Motion.

On the copyright issue... one of the reason's I know this particular piece of law backwards and forwards is because five years ago an actor and her girlfriend tried to sue me for stealing their movie idea.

They had developed a similar idea to the film that eventually became my second feature "No Place."

I actually offered one of the lead roles to this actress, not knowing she'd sent a "one page treatment" of her idea to my business partner... who had read it, but had never shown it to me.

She was convinced that we'd ripped her off and I spent two months talking to my entertainment lawyer about how we could deal with the potential law suit.

The issue never came to court... because... well, see my initial post. The bottom line is, I had a copyrighted script and she had one tatty piece of paper.

If she'd known me better, she would have realised that I'm WAY to arrogant to steal... especially from an actor. When, the law thing didn't work out, they tried threatening text messages and her brother tried to brace me in the street... bad mistake on his part.

Because of this I now won't let people discuss their ideas with me and I always wince when people talk openly about them.

There is another side to this... every dingbat in the universe has an idea for a movie... I mean every single one of them.

The flip side of this is... almost nobody can write a movie script. Although the industry buys and sells ideas... and ideas are important, it's only when they are executed in script form they have actual value.

 

[oakstreetphotovideo]

I'm in the camp that can't write a script. Sometimes I do get an interesting idea, but like you said, we all get ideas! My big problem is with dialog. I suck at dialog ... in real life, and in writing. I just stick to what I know ... algebra, trigonometry, electronics, light, optics ... well, you get the idea. Some of us are creative, and some of us are mechanics. I have just enough creativity that I work well with really creative people.

Doug

 

[clive]

Doug, I'm the opposite... and I'm killer at dialogue, always have been. Probably to do with all the years I worked writing for radio. I struggle with the mechanics, despite the fact I'm a whizz with conceptual physics (not the maths mind you... LOL)

Send me an email with a wish list of everything you'd want in your ideal micro-budget feature script... and if I get inspired who knows what might come of it.

I've got something else I want to talk to you about, anyway.

 

[Joe999]

...The Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment was designed to show how stupid quantum mechanics is as a theory... it wasn't a proof that observation altered the cat... it was taking the piss. Pretty much the only other thing that pisses me off more than people who waste my time, are people who talk about physics, without having a background in it.

You assume I have no background in physics. In fact I have advanced science degrees and a medical (MD) degree and have even taught college level physics. I am sorry you can not see the analogy.

 

[clive]

You assume I have no background in physics. In fact I have advanced science degrees and a medical (MD) degree and have even taught college level physics. I am sorry you can not see the analogy.

Dude, that's even worse... because that means you already knew that Schrodinger's Paradox was a thought experiment designed to debunk quantum physics. Which makes it either a very bad analogy or you made it assuming we were less well educated than you are.

The whole point of the Schrodinger Cat Paradox is it's an experiment that can't be tested in real world conditions... that's not the case with copyright law. There is a way to test it, in court. Not only that, there's a huge wealth of documented experiments, or court cases, which you can use to examine your assumptions.

One more thing... and I'm getting oh so very tired of typing this...

The film industry works entirely on relationships... it's also an industry where people survive on their ability to generate good will. On top of that, it's also an industry full of fragile egos... of people who will not only slam the door in your face if you offend them... they'll also then bad mouth you to everyone they know. On top of that, anyone who has any kind of professional experience has a very particular knowledge base... which means they can spot a rube the second the rube opens their mouths. Nobody in this business likes a rube... and a rube is someone who claims greater expertise than they actually have.

Now, "You can't copyright an idea" is screenwriting 101... when you argue that with anyone in the industry, you are hanging a huge rube sign over your head. Thus making you a social leper.

I'm going to give you the most useful piece of advice you'll ever get about how to make it in this industry... forget all about how smart you are and concentrate on forming good relationships. If you do that, people will help you.. a lot. You'd be amazed at how generous film people can be, if you handle them the right wa

 

[2001 Productions]

Regarding the copyright issue, I'll just throw in here and back up what Clive is saying. When I started sending scripts out, I was paranoid as hell -- made sure my WGA registrations were up to date and plainly visible on the title page.

When I signed with my manager, he told me not to worry about it. He said to register the scripts if it made me feel better, but that script theft in Hollywood is largely a myth. He won't allow a WGA or copyright registration number to appear anywhere in the manuscript because, according to him, it paints the writer as a paranoid amateur. And this is coming from an ex-20th Century Fox exec. who deals exclusively with the major studios.

And, of course, it should go without saying that you cannot copyright an idea -- that would be absurd.

 

[clive]

Thanks for that 2001, that's exactly the same basis on which I work. Nice to get validation from such a good source.

It's a simple maths thing really... a script doesn't get stolen, because in the time it takes to write a new script based on the stolen idea, another producer could option the original and get it into production. If a producer finds a great idea, it's better business for them to buy out the script, control the concept and then bring in another writer to get it to production.

What a lot of new writers forget is that copyright isn't really about copyright... any piece of paper you create automatically has copyright. Copyright issues are a complex mixture of: what can be proved in court, how original the piece is and the realities of business practice.

If you look at enough copyright cases you pretty soon discover that they're almost impossible to win... the very few cases that have been won, have been where the defendant was stupid in what they stole and how they stole it... and where the plaintive had massive amounts of documented evidence.

 

[2001 Productions]

It's a simple maths thing really... a script doesn't get stolen, because in the time it takes to write a new script based on the stolen idea, another producer could option the original and get it into production. If a producer finds a great idea, it's better business for them to buy out the script, control the concept and then bring in another writer to get it to production.

Yep. That's exactly the rationale my manager gave me.

 

[Justin Hayward]

This is a great article on the subject.