Please please please help a newbie with editing! (File conversion workflow)

[gibbo]

OK I don't know where to start, so I'll just start.

Recently shot a mini documentary for Uni using Canon DSLR's (600D and 60D) and edited in iMovie (I know, I know.... Our editor had premiere but didn't use it, plus we have access to Avid and Pinnacle)

Anyhoo, we shot it flat on the cameras, from memory Sharpness was all the way down, contrast down by 2 notches and saturation down by 2 notches as well. Long story short: the finished product through Imovie looks horrible, and not being able to sharpen in imovie didn't help either. He colour graded a few shots and it seems to look even worse than the original.

So I'm hoping you fellas can help me out so I don't make this mistake again! A few Uni friends and I are planning to film a few short films over these holidays and I'd love to be able to figure something so I can have good quality stuff to show you all for criticism! I really want to use Imovie, I want to cut my teeth on that first and make a few projects with that before I move onto something else.

So, my concerns are not so much about the craft of editing, that will come with practice, more so the technical stuff surround it, like file conversions and codecs and stuff to get the best quality, that I know nothing about!

So maybe I'll start with what I think needs to be done? Then you can tear me apart and school me from there:

Convert original mov files to something else using another program like mpeg streamclip without losing quality. Then I can edit and colour grade using iMovie.

So some questions:

1) Will the above workflow (converting via mpegstreamclip) actually allow me to edit and colour grade without losing quality and also be easier on the PC to edit with? Effectively I will be able to use a les powerful PC as a result?

2) In my case, he has exported the clip from iMovie as an HD file, is there a way I can fix it up? At least return the sharpening, contrast and saturation using another program or something so I can have something that looks half decent? I', 99% sure he exported straight from iMovie, not using quicktime.

OR,

3) If he sends me the project file, will imovie automatically find the file locations on my PC? Assuming I have them all, or will they need to be all in the exact same place/file and folder structure? I can place them all into 1 large folder or something? Then I can fix it up that way?

4) I literally read 15 mins ago to export from imovie using quicktime for better quality, but it's too late for that now. But for future, is this the best way to get the best quality out of iMovie?

Or am I going about this all the wrong way and there's a better and/or easier way to do it all?

Thanks so much guys!

(BTW, I did a search first but didn't find much, I might have been using the wrong terms though)

Thanks so much guys!

 

[knightly]

Are you able to edit in iMovie to begin with? If so, start your color correction with a levels adjustment, then work on the white point, then do whatever coloring stuff to it you're looking to do.

Don't sharpen it - sharpening does icky things to edges (selects a couple of pixels of high contrast lines, then inverts their brightness to make a dark subject on a white background have a white outline inside a dark outline.

 

[gibbo]

Are you able to edit in iMovie to begin with? If so, start your color correction with a levels adjustment, then work on the white point, then do whatever coloring stuff to it you're looking to do.

Don't sharpen it - sharpening does icky things to edges (selects a couple of pixels of high contrast lines, then inverts their brightness to make a dark subject on a white background have a white outline inside a dark outline.

Hi Knightly, thanks for the relpy

I am able to edit in iMovie, it would be much easier for me to do so. But I've read that converting the files first makes them more "friendly"?

You mean edge enhancement? How do I bring the sharpening back up then in post? Because I basically turn it all the way off in camera and it looks very flat (flat picture profiles basically)

 

[knightly]

Sharpening/Edge enhancement... don't add it back... looks all digital and crappy. If you've focused your shots well, you're good to go.

Levels will be the fix you're looking for (if you post a screen shot of some of your footage, I can give much more applicable feedback rather than just generic suggestions)... I even have iMovie and can build a CC workflow for you with that if your present a screenie.

 

[Cracker Funk]

You mention learning the craft of editing, and that you will surely improve with practice. Of course, that's very true.

But if you learn how to edit with iMovie, you're learning how to do it wrong. If you've got Premiere, I highly recommend working with that. Premiere has a much more steep of a learning-curve than iMovie, and that's because you can do more stuff with it. But as your skills develop, you'll find that Premiere is actually easier to use. You will outgrow iMovie, in not much time at all. You will never outgrow Premiere.

 

[knightly]

I used to use iMovie exclusively. the techniques you use in it will cover 90% of your edit in final cut pro... set in point, set out point, drop in timeline. Eventually, you'll run into the ceiling of the program and want to do more than it's made to do... at that point, move to final cut or premeire (or lightworks, that should be out by that point in time).

 

[Cracker Funk]

the techniques you use in it will cover 90% of your edit in final cut pro... set in point, set out point, drop in timeline.

Needless to say, there is no one correct way to edit -- to each his own. Just to throw out a different perspective, though -- the process you describe is not even close to 90% of what I do (because the most important thing I do is continue to play with it, after it's in the timeline).

I basically can't function without multiple tracks. Yes, I set an in and out point, but then once it's in the timeline, I often move it around. A lot. For me, finding just the right timing is all about trial-and-error. I move stuff around, watch it, and move it around more. Using a single-track, this process is clumsy and annoying as hell.

I really can't over-emphasize the trial-and-error aspect of my editing process. It's extremely important to my workflow, and I need it to be able to function at a rapid-pace. And I can't do that with a single track. iMovie can suck it!

 

[gibbo]

Sharpening/Edge enhancement... don't add it back... looks all digital and crappy. If you've focused your shots well, you're good to go.

So I shouldn't shoot flat? Or I still should but don't but the levels back up? That would mean a super flat picture? I've seen comparisons online of videos shot with Sharpness, Sat and Contrast at their default levels and videos shot flat with the levels returned in post and I could tell the difference. Plus lowering sharpness helps around the aliasing issues too... I'm legitimately confused now!

Levels will be the fix you're looking for (if you post a screen shot of some of your footage, I can give much more applicable feedback rather than just generic suggestions)... I even have iMovie and can build a CC workflow for you with that if your present a screenie.

Wow that would be amazing! Thanks so much.

What do you mean by Levels being the fix I'm looking for? I'm intrigued!

Here are a few screenshots, taken via VLC, if that's too large a file for you (35.5MB) let me know and I'll compress them and post them individually but I didn't want to compress them any further. You can see that the blacks are pretty much destroyed, as are some skin areas and shadows in general, overall the quality is horrid. It's a 5 minute long clip, shot on a Canon 600D and 60D and edited native in iMovie and was exported as a .mov which is at around 700MB

Screenies:

http://www2.zshare.ma/oqur5csv8ijc

You mention learning the craft of editing, and that you will surely improve with practice. Of course, that's very true.

But if you learn how to edit with iMovie, you're learning how to do it wrong. If you've got Premiere, I highly recommend working with that. Premiere has a much more steep of a learning-curve than iMovie, and that's because you can do more stuff with it. But as your skills develop, you'll find that Premiere is actually easier to use. You will outgrow iMovie, in not much time at all. You will never outgrow Premiere.

I just want to cut my teeth on iMovie, I don't plan to stay with it for long, just until I'm comfortable and know what I'm doing. I've only edited once (a 30 sec movie without sound thing for Uni) in my life (iMovie) and I seriously don't know anything about any editing program.

But I do plan to get either Sony Vegas or Premiere Pro when I've wrapped my head around iMovie. Not just yet thought because that would mean a new PC which I can't really afford at the moment, unless the whole "converting before editing" thing works and makes it less resource intensive, then I might be able to get away with it on my current PC or just buy a cheap lenovo i5 or something...

I used to use iMovie exclusively. the techniques you use in it will cover 90% of your edit in final cut pro... set in point, set out point, drop in timeline. Eventually, you'll run into the ceiling of the program and want to do more than it's made to do... at that point, move to final cut or premeire (or lightworks, that should be out by that point in time).

My Uni computers all have final cut pro too, so I guess that would be the next logical step for me if I don't end up purchasing Premiere or Vegas. But next semester we are learning Avid which should be interesting...


And as far as converting footage goes, the editing tutor at Uni today told me he never edits natively (could be personal preference) but I've also read some people do and some people don't. I just want to get the best quality I can out of editing!

 

[knightly]

did my first few shorts on iMovie (big improvement over Diva Videoshop and the original Premiere -- that adobe sold to macromedia which became final cut which then got sold to apple). Works like a champ until it's not enough for you.

I completely agree about my workflow using multiple tracks, but it's not the only work flow... infact, I assign each character their own track, one for the master and one for inserts and cutaways... most scenes have at least 4 tracks in them.

again, most of what you end up with is clips in a sequence (how you get there is irrelevant) with straight cuts in between. Use what you have: http://www.singingrooster.org/art/

Tell stories with whatever you have access to right now. The art part is ephemeral and can't really be taught, while a couple of afternoons and google will have you using the programs (whichever you choose) from a technical standpoint with relative ease... the craft is technically easy, turning it into art is REALLY hard and needs some natural ability. Better tools will make the job easier, but fundamentally, they're all just tools. Use what you have.

On to the "flat" image conversation... a "flat" image refers only to the exposure levels of the image, black to white in each of the color channels to maximize the limited range you have to work with in camera and how the real lightscape is mapped into that range.

It is intended to be corrected in post... I've downloaded the image you posted and will be playing with it in iMovie a bit to give a possible workflow. Lowering the saturation is meant to keep individual color channels from clipping past 100% and the lowered contrast is meant to pull the mids together a bit to give the black and whites more of a chance to squeeze themselves into the limited exposure range of digital cameras.

Sharpening is a digital tool to create an optical illusion that tricks the eye into thinking a lower resolution image has more definition in contrast areas. If the camera does it, it can't be undone... it can always be added in post and adjusted there... I personally think it makes images look like they got hit by a mid 1980s 1/2" VTR Deck -- really heavily dislike it because it takes areas of contrast and inverts them along the extent of the edge making it really artificial looking... fine for an effect, but not much else (See the bottom image for the reason I don't like them):

(source: http://www.visionsuit.com/tutorials.html#expose_hidden_details )

Now please hold while I take a peek at your image.

 

[knightly]

Ok... I'm using iMovie 11 (9.0.4).

"V" brings up the video properties of a clip



which allows you to make quick levels/color adjustments to your images.





For the record, I didn't see any images that were shot "flat"... they all clipped the blacks, but the whites were protected well. I have an example:



The blacks in their shirts have lost all detail as the dark grays were pushed below 0%, making them 0% and losing all of the pretty shadow detail. Shooting "flat" would have your contrast down so you could pull your darks up toward the whites a little bit. The images look REALLY washed out in camera with grays instead of blacks and grays instead of whites as you're "crushing" the mids to allow for more values in the darks and lights of the image. In post, you'll "stretch" the mids back out using the levels sliders at the top of the adjustment window to set your black and white points where the image looks good again, then adjusting the mid level using the "exposure" slider. You can then add some color back in using the saturation and shift the colors around using the color balance sliders and the white balance color wheel at the bottom.

 

[Cracker Funk]

knightly, I read your posts and I will agree that though I strongly prefer to edit with multiple tracks, in the end, almost every cut is just a straight cut, and you can do that with pretty much anything. It's more a matter of convenience and speed in the overall process I'm concerned with.

gibbo, make it work! Just as it's not the camera that makes a good DP, it's not the software that makes a good editor. You can totally knock one out the park with iMovie, if that's what you've got.

 

[gibbo]

On to the "flat" image conversation... a "flat" image refers only to the exposure levels of the image, black to white in each of the color channels to maximize the limited range you have to work with in camera and how the real lightscape is mapped into that range.

It is intended to be corrected in post... I've downloaded the image you posted and will be playing with it in iMovie a bit to give a possible workflow. Lowering the saturation is meant to keep individual color channels from clipping past 100% and the lowered contrast is meant to pull the mids together a bit to give the black and whites more of a chance to squeeze themselves into the limited exposure range of digital cameras.

Sharpening is a digital tool to create an optical illusion that tricks the eye into thinking a lower resolution image has more definition in contrast areas. If the camera does it, it can't be undone... it can always be added in post and adjusted there... I personally think it makes images look like they got hit by a mid 1980s 1/2" VTR Deck -- really heavily dislike it because it takes areas of contrast and inverts them along the extent of the edge making it really artificial looking... fine for an effect, but not much else (See the bottom image for the reason I don't like them):

http://www.visionsuit.com/tutorials/expose_hidden_details.jpg[/IG]
(source: [url]http://www.visionsuit.com/tutorials.html#expose_hidden_details[/url] )

Now please hold while I take a peek at your image.[/QUOTE]

Yep, yuk, sharpness is ugly!

I'm just concerned that if I bring sharpness all the way down in camera and don't bring it back up at least a little in post, the image will suffer and be blurry etc (assuming I have nailed focus)

Do you/have you shot on DSLRs before and turned sharpness all the way down?


[QUOTE="knightly, post: 268421, member: 2418"]Ok... I'm using iMovie 11 (9.0.4).

"V" brings up the video properties of a clip

[ATTACH]511[/ATTACH]

which allows you to make quick levels/color adjustments to your images.

[ATTACH]510[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]512[/ATTACH]

For the record, I didn't see any images that were shot "flat"... they all clipped the blacks, but the whites were protected well. I have an example:[/quote]

I'm such an idiot, I took those screenshots from the finished, exported clip after it was edited in iMovie! The editor stuffed around with it heaps, really desaturated it and added vignetting and god knows what else. Also some of the shots had some of the colours brought back and some did not.

What I should have done was take screenshots of the original clips! The settings I used on my 600D were:

Sharpness: All the way down to 0
Contrast: down 2 notches
Saturation: Down 2 notches

A couple of screenshots from the original clips from camera, ISO 800, mostly f2.8 1080p 24fps:

[url]http://www2.zshare.ma/3tiyvrk1iuj8[/url]

To me that image looks flat and soft, which is why I'm concerned about sharpness so much. I just want to learn how to get the cleanest image possible from my camera!


[quote][ATTACH]513[/ATTACH]
The blacks in their shirts have lost all detail as the dark grays were pushed below 0%, making them 0% and losing all of the pretty shadow detail. Shooting "flat" would have your contrast down so you could pull your darks up toward the whites a little bit. The images look REALLY washed out in camera with grays instead of blacks and grays instead of whites as you're "crushing" the mids to allow for more values in the darks and lights of the image. In post, you'll "stretch" the mids back out using the levels sliders at the top of the adjustment window to set your black and white points where the image looks good again, then adjusting the mid level using the "exposure" slider. You can then add some color back in using the saturation and shift the colors around using the color balance sliders and the white balance color wheel at the bottom.[/QUOTE]

Awesome! Thanks for that, I'm understanding it a little bit more now. I will definitely consult this post again soon when I edit again, hopefully in the next couple of weeks! Great!

I guess in this instance, there's no right or wrong, it's just what looks good to your eye and pleases you?


[QUOTE="Cracker Funk, post: 268422, member: 15509"]knightly, I read your posts and I will agree that though I strongly prefer to edit with multiple tracks, in the end, almost every cut is just a straight cut, and you can do that with pretty much anything. It's more a matter of convenience and speed in the overall process I'm concerned with.

gibbo, make it work! Just as it's not the camera that makes a good DP, it's not the software that makes a good editor. You can totally knock one out the park with iMovie, if that's what you've got. :)[/QUOTE]

Thanks Cracker, I completely understand, I really just want to get the technical stuff out of the way, get nice clean images so I can concentrate on the craft/art part of it. I feel the tech side is stifling me something serious, that's not saying that I'm good at the other side of it either, but I feel like it's pointless even trying to capture beautiful shots if I can't get the tech side figured out and they are just going to turn out looking like they do in our little doco thingy.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

"finding just the right timing is all about trial-and-error"

^ This

Including getting at least temporary versions of any music and sound effects in place. Really noticed this on Kohlman Files. I found myself lengthening shots after it had an approximation of the sound in place. It played differently and what "felt right" changed.

Shooting Flat was probably a bad idea without having somebody in place to do color correction.

 

[gibbo]

So is there any I can fix the doco up using the file that's already been exported? Or will I have to edit it all over again and export it correctly? The subject of it wants to put it up on his blog but I'm not happy with it at all so I wanted to try and at least fix the visuals of it first.

On a similar note, does anyone know of the best way to get the best results with uploading straight from iMovie to youtube etc? Or is it a good idea to first export to a file then upload to online from that file? Problem is, I don't want to be waiting for hours while it exports!

Thanks!

 

[knightly]

If you have the files, you shouldn't need to re-edit at all... just redo the correction, unless you only have access to the edited piece.

The only way then, would be to get hold of the raw footage and either re-edit, or have the editor produce an EDL (although I don't think iMovie will read an Edit Decision List at all -- that would be one of those features you'd want to upgrade for).

 

[jax_rox]

On the topic of 'shooting it flat', I'm really not a fan of trying to push a fake Log space into Rec 709, as you essentially end up with the same product at the end anyway, simply a noisier one, and with so much more time and effort in post.
On DSLR, I much prefer to shoot in either Standard or Neutral picture profile. Just as editing in Avid Symphony isn't going to do you any good if you're new to editing - shooting in Log space (and especially a pseudo/fake Log space) isn't going to do you any good if you're new to cinematography. You're better off shooting Standard, and learning how to light to make that look good - not to mention the time it saves in post.
I might mention that I've shot extnsively on the Alexa in Log-C, and shot a bit on the F3 in S-Log, and would never use anything but on those cameras. I'd still not shoot with a flat picture style on a DSLR though.

 

[gibbo]

If you have the files, you shouldn't need to re-edit at all... just redo the correction, unless you only have access to the edited piece.

I have access to the all the files! How would this work?

I assume you mean on the same computer as what the editor used originally?

Or else is there any way that he could send me a sort of project file or something that I can load up on a different computer and it will auto detect the files?

The only way then, would be to get hold of the raw footage and either re-edit, or have the editor produce an EDL (although I don't think iMovie will read an Edit Decision List at all -- that would be one of those features you'd want to upgrade for).

So there is no way that the editor could export a completely uncompressed version of the edit that I could import and edit from?

On the topic of 'shooting it flat', I'm really not a fan of trying to push a fake Log space into Rec 709, as you essentially end up with the same product at the end anyway, simply a noisier one, and with so much more time and effort in post.
On DSLR, I much prefer to shoot in either Standard or Neutral picture profile. Just as editing in Avid Symphony isn't going to do you any good if you're new to editing - shooting in Log space (and especially a pseudo/fake Log space) isn't going to do you any good if you're new to cinematography. You're better off shooting Standard, and learning how to light to make that look good - not to mention the time it saves in post.
I might mention that I've shot extnsively on the Alexa in Log-C, and shot a bit on the F3 in S-Log, and would never use anything but on those cameras. I'd still not shoot with a flat picture style on a DSLR though.

Thanks for the response!

Standard and Neutral are the same Contrast and Saturation wise, the only difference is that Standard has Sharpness set to 3, Neutral it's on 0. So you don't touch Contrast and Saturation at all? You just edit straight from either of those two profiles? Do you convert the footage first?

Sorry, I have so many questions!!!

 

[Zensteve]

I have access to the all the files! How would this work? (...) Or else is there any way that he could send me a sort of project file or something that I can load up on a different computer and it will auto detect the files?

That's kinda (but not quite) what the afore-mentioned EDL (Edit Decision List) is.

An EDL is a small text file that contains a small set of information; the name of the video clips, the timecodes of the footage used, what kind of transition/cut is used to connect them... maybe more.

If you have the EDL, you can reassemble a complete edit on any editing software that can read an EDL. You might have some issues if the movie has tonnes of non-traditional wipes or other funky transitions and you are using different software. No biggie, though. As long as you have the original files (named appropriately), you'll be in business.

So there is no way that the editor could export a completely uncompressed version of the edit that I could import and edit from?

If you are looking to do only minor adjustments, or looking to do changes to a mostly locked edit (such as just audio mixing or doing colour correction to the actual edit), your editor can create a trimmed project file. This will render the entire film into a package that consists of the video software's project file, and only the video that is used in the actual timeline. Each video clip can have a little wiggle-room assigned to it for minor adjustments (called "handles"), but aside from that... all non-used video parts are not included in the output.

I'm a bit confused as to what you're actually trying to do, but hope this helped.

 

[gibbo]

That's kinda (but not quite) what the afore-mentioned EDL (Edit Decision List) is.

An EDL is a small text file that contains a small set of information; the name of the video clips, the timecodes of the footage used, what kind of transition/cut is used to connect them... maybe more.

If you have the EDL, you can reassemble a complete edit on any editing software that can read an EDL. You might have some issues if the movie has tonnes of non-traditional wipes or other funky transitions and you are using different software. No biggie, though. As long as you have the original files (named appropriately), you'll be in business.

Ok, so this EDL doesn't have to be used on the same editing software it was created? That's so cool! It was originally edited on iMovie and I'd love to fix it up again on iMovie so I can give it to the subject quickly., that's if iMovie can do this?

And do the video files need to have the same folder structure as when they were originally edited? EG: If I just have a folder with everything dumped in there, with the same file names of course, but the original edit was done from different folders, will it still work?

No really difficult or fancy editing was done, just some audio splits, fade to black, overlay etc

If you are looking to do only minor adjustments, or looking to do changes to a mostly locked edit (such as just audio mixing or doing colour correction to the actual edit), your editor can create a trimmed project file. This will render the entire film into a package that consists of the video software's project file, and only the video that is used in the actual timeline. Each video clip can have a little wiggle-room assigned to it for minor adjustments (called "handles"), but aside from that... all non-used video parts are not included in the output.

Interesting. Well, if the above doesn't work (using that EDL thing or whatever) Do you know if this trimmed project file is possible with iMovie? The editor doesn't know much more about it than me unfortunately...

I'm a bit confused as to what you're actually trying to do, but hope this helped.

Well, I have a mini doco that we made for a Uni group assignment (GARR!) and there's lots wrong with it. I would love to fix it up and give the subject of the interview a better copy so he can post it on his blog. I don't want to edit it all over again because that will take ages, I'd have to do it at Uni and it will take AGES to export a proper quality version, i think? So, I figured that I might be able to at least fix up the sound, intro was too loud, and the quality of it, really poor, shot on canon DSLRs. The editor just did a standard export from iMovie so the quality is horrific.

So I was thinking, with the exported HD version from iMovie (about 700mb) could I fix that one up? It's bad quality, compressed so I'm guessing no, I'd have to go back to the original footage. That's why I'm hoping there's a way to somehow have iMovie automatically remember all the footage/cuts etc from my external HDD on a different computer at Uni so I don't have to actually edit it all over again.

And I originally created this thread more to learn about the workflow for canon DSLR footage h.264 and other difficult codecs I guess. I've read that convverting the canon .mov files to something else before editing makes it MUCH easier and faster on the computer to edit and the footage can withstand more colour grading? This is perfect as I can't afford a new computer at the moment and I'd love to edit at home, if it takes ages to export/render or whatever it's called I could just leave it over night, as long as it doesn't crash!

I don't know if that makes sense... it does in my head but that quite often doesn't mean much!

And thanks so much to you and all others who have made comments and suggestions! Seriously!! I really want/need to learn all this but its so frustrating, yet enjoyable!

sorry for the verbose posts

!

 

[knightly]

iMovie uses a package (a directory that hides its contents from the user) for their "project" files. The footage from iMovie is stored within the project file itself... just transfer that and you can remove the filters from all of the clips and regrade it.

If you want access to jsut the footage, right-click (ctrl-click) on the project file and select "show package contents" The footage is all in there. Vopy don't move... you'll break the project.