Newfound respect for you audio engis

Everyone tells filmmakers "Don't neglect audio! It's half the experience!" so I tried to capture decent audio.

But holy crap, "decent" is subjective. After days of foley and bg recordings, I started on the captured audio. It might take me longer to edit the audio than it took our editor to do the entire film. And I'm terrified that it's going to suck.

When editing film, I can immediately see the results on something like a simple white balance or color grading. But doing the same for audio takes a long time, and several listens, and it's not easy to do a side-by-side comparison like on film. I calibrated my monitor, but how the hell do I calibrate cans? I don't have a good room that can be used, although I do have some monitor speakers with a good amp on my desk.

Editing 5 minutes of film might take anywhere from an hour to a day (obviously depending on what needs to be done) ... but audio is taking me a crazy amount of time, and I'm just posting here to blow off some steam. I hear every lip smack, every clothing swish, and if the boom moved too fast. I've learned how to use certain filters to strip out certain noise and how to compress out some background sounds, but getting the right timbre or sound quality back is killing me. Background noise isn't separated well, either, then needs to be stripped out and added back in to sound the same between different angles. And panning sound without it sounding like some engineer playing with a L-R knob? Holy crap. Apparently some cuts had a fridge running in the other room! Egads!

So, my hat is off to you guys that do this well, especially if you do it well with newbie equipment (like I got - zoom H6 + cheap condenser hyper pencil + audacity + sony vegas). I'm still trying to figure out how to normalize levels for proper loudness for broadcast TV without any test equipment, and that's an entire subject in itself. Most of the units used in describing sound (SPL, dBMF, loudness etc) I only have a vague idea of what they do and how they relate. :(

You guys are either brilliant and patient, cyborgs or other artificial lifeforms, or absolutely insane. Maybe all of the above.
 
You guys are either brilliant and patient, cyborgs or other artificial lifeforms, or absolutely insane. Maybe all of the above.

So I've been told, and very. :rolleyes:

Nope. They took the neural bridge implants out when they shelved the program. ;)

Possibly. :hmm:

Most definitely. :crazy:
 
Now you know why I harp on using an experienced production sound mixer/boom-op.

Let's talk about process. ALWAYS edit the production dialog first. Is there a better line delivery in another take? Or, if there are severe noise problems (or distortion, etc.), is there an acceptable line that can be substituted? This let's you know where the problems are in case you need to do ADR. Since I (and you) will be doing the mix you can start doing noise reduction right now. Send the channel to a sub buss with all of the plug-ins, send the sub buss to a new audio channel and record it. For rumble you can use a simple High Pass (HP) EQ; just roll off everything below 100Hz. For hiss Use a Low Pass EQ (LP) and roll off everything above 17kHz. There is a little room to play around. Then use some NR (Noise Reduction) software. I really like iZotope RX, and I still have SoundSoap (which has been discontinued - DAMN). Even the BNR (Broadband Noise Reduction) in Pro Tools is useful. There have been times I have used a HP EQ, a LP EQ, RX, SS and BNR all at the same time. ***Do not try to do all of the noise reduction all at once; several light passes, although more time consuming, will yield better results.

Now, strip out everything between lines of dialog; keep the "everything not dialog" on a separate channel or two and disable/mute the channel(s); you may need it later. Checkerboard the dialog by character onto individual tracks and send all of the dialog tracks to a sub buss. A trick that I use here is to put some heavy compression on the dialog buss; this brings out the smaller problems that may need to be edited. TAKE THE COMPRESSOR OFF WHEN YOU ARE DONE EDITING.

What you are left with are individual lines of dialog with empty space between them. Here's where you bring in your room/ambient tone (you did record room/ambient tone, right?). Don't obsess too much at this point.

Now work on your ambient atmospheres/backgrounds; this is to see what noise problems you can mask without overpowering the dialog.

Personally, I work on the Foley next, mostly because, although I love the results, it's a real PITA to do it all by myself. Then I do the sound effects. By this time the score and music is usually ready, so I drop those in and start tweaking/correcting/replacing the Foley and Sound Effects as some will conflict with or get lost in the score/music. If things are done the way they should be I've been in contact with the composer throughout, so the tweaking/correcting/replacing is very easy/simple/minimal.

Since I'm mixing I'm always rough mixing/balancing as I go. I don't bother with EQ and effects (99% of the time its reverbs) until I start doing the actual mix.

When I'm working on the dialog it's my opportunity to "live with" the characters, since, for me, it's also my first experience with the film. At the same time I put together my Foley and Sound Effects cue sheets.

It's sort of like building a house; the dialog is the foundation and framework, the Foley and sound FX are the walls and roof, the score and music are the exterior siding and interior paint. The mix is the landscaping and interior decorating, bringing it all together into a harmonious whole.
 
1986 was when I first got into computers; 8 megs of RAM and an 80 meg hard drive was the freaking' BOMB! I was having some troubles with a basic program. A computer software tech - a real, honest-to-god geek - gave me some wonderful advice that applies to just about everything in art and technology; "It's really very simple, but there is one hell of a lot of simple."

It takes me a minimum of six (6) hours per linear minute of film to do a solid audio post - and I have almost a dozen years of audio post experience behind me, another six years as a music recording engineer, plus I have the needed tools like VocAlign, iZotope RX, SoundSoap Pro, Pro Tools BNR, AltiVerb and lots of other fun toys, not to mention a treated studio and some really nice speakers.

So you just break it all down into "simple" steps. Be patient. Take your time. Don't be afraid to experiment; just be sure that you work on copies and have back-ups.

Good luck!
 
It takes me a minimum of six (6) hours per linear minute of film to do a solid audio post - and I have almost a dozen years of audio post experience behind me, another six years as a music recording engineer, plus I have the needed tools like VocAlign, iZotope RX, SoundSoap Pro, Pro Tools BNR, AltiVerb and lots of other fun toys, not to mention a treated studio and some really nice speakers.

Hah, in a strange, yet sad way, that makes me feel slightly better. :)

I'm not expecting to have crazy good audio, but I'm amazed at the work that goes into merely making "passable" audio. I never billed myself as an audio engi, but I was the only one really worried about sound, and the job fell onto me since I didn't have confidence in anyone else we had on crew (edit: to do sound, that is... crew was great in general), and we didn't have the wherewithal to hire a real sound guy.

I'm the guy that notices the artifacts, the dropouts, and the bad lighting whenever I watch something. Even in multi-million dollar projects, I see big errors all the time. In this micro-budget project, I have to be careful not to be too nit-picky. But I didn't want to ruin the film from bad lighting, bad focus, or bad sound.

Anyways, back to editing... I think I've gotten 3 more minutes done since I last posted! :D
 
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So you just break it all down into "simple" steps. Be patient. Take your time. Don't be afraid to experiment; just be sure that you work on copies and have back-ups.

Good luck!
For someone who had never done it before, I think I did an okay job with my knowledge and tools. I still hear all sorts of problems with it, naturally, but it's not only much more improved over the raw sound footage, but starting to get fairly immersive. I need to make a delivery of a sample shortly, but I'll continue tweaking it and try to whittle down my list of problem spots.

There is one small section with some wind noise that I can't seem to alleviate. Utterly no idea how to handle that ... I have a feeling I'll have to piece it together manually if I really want to try to reconstruct it. In another section, there's some timbre issues resulting from noise removal, but it sounds better than the noise, and I don't know how to widen the feel of the sound without it becoming reverb-y (although I'm starting to get a handle on things like that).

You'd think there's be a simple plugin to add & subtract harmonics on voice, either high, low, or in a range. But no idea where I'd find such a beast.

edit: doing a test on youtube, I found that the perceived loudness is wayyy too low. Not sure if I should worry about that, as youtube isn't the primary arena this is for. But I may have too much dynamic range for other formats. :-/
 
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We'd love to hear it when/if you can share. And AA, I've shared the process post with my production crew who are interested in Audio even the least little bit (and rolling into it as I'm about to, to let them know the steps involved -- to set their time expectations for it).
 
There are the Cedar systems. The basic RTAS noise reduction plug-in for Pro Tools is a bit under $5,000. The Cedar Cambridge DNS V- series (they're at V-9, now), hardware with the full software package and the ability to run in real time, starts at about $25,000. If used properly you don't need to reconstruct the voice harmonics.

I have to say that the Spectral Repair in iZotope RX Advanced ($1,100) is pretty damned amazing for the price.
 
I calibrated my monitor, but how the hell do I calibrate cans?

You can't calibrate cans, that's just one of the reasons why cans are rarely used by by audio post professionals.

Editing 5 minutes of film might take anywhere from an hour to a day (obviously depending on what needs to be done) ...

Is that all, you must be really rushing it! Actually, it depends I what I'm doing. I get some rush jobs in sometimes, documentaries usually, where there's only 3 or 4 days for the whole thing. At the other end of the scale, you've got big budget features where an audio post team of 30 or more might be getting through 1 or 2 minutes of film a day! Even low budget features have an audio post team of a dozen or so and would usually take 12-16 weeks. So 5 minutes of film in an hour or even a day, sounds extremely rushed to me if it's just one person (you!) in the audio post team.

So, my hat is off to you guys that do this well, especially if you do it well with newbie equipment (like I got - zoom H6 + cheap condenser hyper pencil + audacity + sony vegas). I'm still trying to figure out how to normalize levels for proper loudness for broadcast TV without any test equipment, and that's an entire subject in itself.

There are many audio post tools available and to be honest quite a few of them you can do without, at a pinch as many of them are to aid workflow and speed up the process. This very important commercially though because clients always want miracles and what's more, they usually want them within a completely infeasible time scale. Some of the audio post tools are essentials though, loudness normalisation is one of them. There's no way to meet modern TV delivery specs without the right tools and more than a fair amount of knowledge. As you're discovering, it can be quite complex. If you've got any questions in this area, feel free to ask. Ah, you have got one:
doing a test on youtube, I found that the perceived loudness is wayyy too low. Not sure if I should worry about that, as youtube isn't the primary arena this is for. But I may have too much dynamic range for other formats.

Youtube is particularly problematic because there are no loudness specs and you find material of all loudness categories, from theatrical mixes (which are the quietest), all the way up to commercial CDs (which are the loudest) and the difference between these two extremes is vast; extremely roughly, about 30dB difference! Popular music CDs have very little dynamic range, whereas theatrical films tend to have a very large dynamic range. DVDs are closer to film than to CD and so is TV, although TV is generally a little louder than DVDs. What you put on Youtube depends on what you expect the majority of your audience to be watching on, for example, laptops and mobile devices need high levels and small dynamic ranges. In general, a theatrical feature usually ends up with at least 3 different mixes; One for cinema, one for DVD and one for TV. TV has very specific loudness specs, which include an integrated loudness (-24LKFS or -23LUFS in Europe), peak levels which are variable from broadcaster to broadcaster (generally -2dBTP and -1dBTP in Europe) and an LRA (loudness range) of no more than 20LUFS but this can also vary from broadcaster to broadcaster. Theatrical films do not have specific loudness specs as such, loudness is controlled by calibrating cinema sized dubbing theatres (mix stages) with the same calibration as the cinemas themselves, so the mix will sound the same volume in the cinema as it did on the mix stage. The problem here is that it's virtually impossible to calibrate a small room for theatrical mixing, so mixing in a small room, even one where calibration has been attempted, you never quite know how loud it will play in the cinema and therefore if some of your quiet details will be way too loud or inaudible.

You guys are either brilliant and patient, cyborgs or other artificial lifeforms, or absolutely insane. Maybe all of the above.

I would say mainly insane cyborgs with a bit of the others factors mixed in!

There is one small section with some wind noise that I can't seem to alleviate. Utterly no idea how to handle that ...
You'd think there's be a simple plugin to add & subtract harmonics on voice, either high, low, or in a range. But no idea where I'd find such a beast.

Wind noise is usually a serious problem because it doesn't usually exist within a frequency band but across the entire spectrum. This means that a fair bit of the wind noise usually "lives" in the same frequencies as the dialogue you want to keep and so there is no way to differentiate what you want to keep from what you want to remove. It's therefore usually impossible to remove all the wind noise and depending on it's severity, it's often impossible to remove enough of it for the dialogue to be usable, in which case ADR is the only alternative (if there aren't alt takes without wind noise). Using HP, LP and notch filters, along with say the CEDAR equipment Alcove mentioned, plus various other noise reduction plugins, it's usually possible to obtain usable dialogue, unless the wind noise damage is extreme. However, apart from the standard EQ filters, the good noise reduction plugins are very expensive and even then it's not just a case of hitting a noise reduction button! There are all kinds of parameters which need adjusting and may need constant re-adjusting (using automation) and exactly which plugins you use and in what order varies depending on the exact nature of the problem (all wind noise is not the same). So while a newbie with little high quality equipment/plugins or experience can often improve dialogue a fair bit, it's usually not enough to make it usable. There's no way around this and is one of the reasons why commercial audio post facilities and professionals still exist!

On the point of removing harmonics from dialogue. Are you still referring to wind noise? If so, then this isn't really applicable because noise by definition doesn't really have any harmonics but entire bands of frequencies. If you are referring to a hum though (you mentioned a fridge), this isn't noise per se because hums are specific frequencies rather than bands of frequencies. There are specific audio post tools to deal with hums but actually this is one of those areas where you can sometimes deal with the problem reasonably effectively without specialist tools, here's how:

Set up an EQ with a high (narrow) Q value and say 8dB (or so) of gain. Now sweep slowly through the frequency spectrum, starting at about 40Hz. You will notice a particularly big jump in volume at a particular point during the sweep. Set your EQ to the highest (narrowest) Q setting available and sweep more finely in the area where you noticed the volume jump, until you've narrowed it down to just a small number (preferably 1) of frequencies. If it were an earth loop hum for example, that frequency would be exactly 60Hz (in the US). Centre your EQ peak on that frequency (60Hz in our example) and turn the gain in the opposite direction, to it's maximum cut value. You've now identified and notched out the fundamental frequency of the hum. Now setup another EQ as before and continue on up through the spectrum, paying particular attention to where the harmonics of the fundamental you've already found should be. In our example (an earth loop hum) the first harmonic would be at 120Hz, then 180Hz, etc., creating a notch filter for each harmonic (or fundamental of a new hum) that you come across. Make sure you play a large portion of the take through each time you are trying to locate fundamentals and harmonics, as you don't want to start notching out the fundamentals or harmonics of the dialogue itself. The fundamentals and harmonics of the dialogue will usually change throughout a phrase, whereas hums will not, they will stay the same for the duration of the hum.

Professional tools for doing this job will setup the harmonic notches automatically and the notches themselves can be set much narrower (higher Q) than most EQs bundled with software and are therefore able to remove the offending frequencies more precisely (and therefore more transparently) than most basic EQ plugins. Be aware though that many mechanical hums may contain broadband noise in addition to the hum and/or may actually be comprised of several different hums, in which case it may be impractical to remove all the different fundamentals and their harmonics. In either case, the hum removal method I've described above may not improve the dialogue to the point of usability. Air con nearly always falls into this category for example and fridge hums often do. In these cases, notch filters may form just the first stage of the ultimate solution, if there is one!

One of the discouraging things about audio post is that the more you learn about it and the more effort you apply to it the more complex and difficult it appears to become. Don't let this put you off though! Remember, most no and very micro budget filmmakers get discouraged straight away or just aren't interested or can't be bothered in the first place, so you're already ahead of much of the competition to start with! Hums are actually a good example of this, quite a high proportion of takes contain some sort of hum but unless it's a really obvious hum most no budget filmmakers don't consciously notice them and so don't remove them. Try the method I've described above on a number of different sections of dialogue which you think currently sound OK. I'm sure you'll find some hums in some of those sections of dialogue which you didn't realise were there and you maybe surprised by the improvement from removing them.

I hope this helps?

G
 
On the point of removing harmonics from dialogue. Are you still referring to wind noise? If so, then this isn't really applicable because noise by definition doesn't really have any harmonics but entire bands of frequencies. If you are referring to a hum though (you mentioned a fridge), this isn't noise per se because hums are specific frequencies rather than bands of frequencies.

I was actually talking removing some noise, but being left with "tinny" sounding dialogue. It was mostly a hum with a clicking sound. I was hoping there was a way to restore some of the full feel of the dialogue based on the higher frequencies, because boosting the lower ones added back in the noise that was removed. I suppose that means there was a very poor SNR in the lower frequencies, so I couldn't separate it out.

Thanks for your post, too. Yes, I was rushing it, and yes, I was the only one on this indie production that at least had much theory. We had a sound guy, but I don't think he had the technical knowledge to produce consistent sound based on some interviews he did. To be fair, neither did I, but since I was going to be editing, I figured it would be better to blame myself than someone else for poor sound quality. :)

It's kind of clear to me that a newbie with great tools will not do as well as an experienced audio engi with only rudimentary tools. There's clearly a lot of experience in something like this, and while I can often picture how to make a shot and process it for what I want, it's much more difficult to imagine how sound will change when processing it.
 
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btw, here's a graph of a failure on our field recorder causing sporadic beeping noises. I figured it out during recording, and since we had the area and actors ready, I guessed I could clean it up. Initially, it was very difficult to get any clean audio. But as soon as I figured out how to do a notch filter in audacity, it was an amazing difference.

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I was actually talking removing some noise, but being left with "tinny" sounding dialogue. It was mostly a hum with a clicking sound. I was hoping there was a way to restore some of the full feel of the dialogue based on the higher frequencies, because boosting the lower ones added back in the noise that was removed. I suppose that means there was a very poor SNR in the lower frequencies, so I couldn't separate it out.

Unfortunately, the human ear/brain is extremely finely tuned to identifying nuance in spoken language and indeed has actually evolved a number of actual physical mechanisms in the ear specifically for this purpose. The result is that we can glean a considerable amount of information from relatively subtle differences in harmonic and frequency content, from estimates of a speakers age, to their demeanour and mood. In fact we can often glean more information this way than from the words themselves, exemplified in statements like; "it's not what was said but the way it was said" and "don't speak to me in that tone of voice".

A filter is a broad, blunt tool. Once you remove a band of frequencies or indeed if you fail to record a band of frequencies for some reason, there is no way of predicting what those frequencies were and so they can't be replaced and, due to the complex nuances, this is even more true of spoken language than of any other type of sound. The only way of having the range of fundamentals and harmonics required to stop your dialogue sounding "tinny" is not to remove them in the first place! This would probably mean in practice a HPF, adjusted to a point well below where it makes the dialogue sound tinny and then one (or more) other noise reduction processors which target frequency reduction more selectively (and therefore more transparently). BTW, I'm not entirely clear what the graph you posted is showing, is the click that darker blue area at around 5kHz and the red areas just environmental noise or noise and recorded dialogue?

One of the advantages of an experienced, quality, professional production sound mixer is that they usually have a reasonably good idea of problems which can easily be fixed in post, what would be easier, better and cheaper to fix on set and re-film or what should be marked in the sound log as a probable candidate for ADR (if a re-take is not practical).

We had a sound guy, but I don't think he had the technical knowledge to produce consistent sound based on some interviews he did...

It's kind of clear to me that a newbie with great tools will not do as well as an experienced audio engi with only rudimentary tools. There's clearly a lot of experience in something like this, and while I can often picture how to make a shot and process it for what I want, it's much more difficult to imagine how sound will change when processing it.

This quote sounds simple and obvious enough, especially as it can be easily translated to many other areas of human endeavour but it raises a number of not so immediately obvious issues, issues which particularly affect aspiring sound designers and no/lo budget filmmakers. For example, given say a laptop with some consumer audio software, even one of the world's great sound designers would struggle to achieve an acceptable result because it doesn't matter how talented or experienced you are, if you can't hear accurately (or at all!) what effect your processing is having on the sound quality then you can't apply most of your talent and experience!

In addition to this, much of what is done in sound design is based on the audience's perception and belief in the aural realities we try to fake. To accomplish this fakery convincingly requires numerous tricks and techniques, tricks and techniques which would take even a very gifted aspiring sound designer many decades to discover on their own. Unlike with music production, where with enough talent one can learn enough on one's own to make a professional product, in audio post the only way of achieving a professional product is to learn from those who already have the knowledge and experience and in practise this means working in a commercial audio post facility. This is because most music is essentially abstract and we are only really concerned with a nice sounding end result rather than achieving a level of (artificial) accuracy required to believe in a visual reality. This is a huge and almost always insurmountable problem for no budget filmmakers, who can't afford appropriately equipped, knowledgeable/experienced audio post personnel. To make matters infinitely worse, the overwhelmingly vast majority of people who offer low budget audio post services are graduates from music production based courses or are professional music producers who don't even realise the differences between music production and audio post, how little they therefore know about audio post or that their approach to learning music production won't work for learning audio post. Time and time again here on indietalk I see statements from filmmakers like "but I employed an audio post professional" and posts from composers/music producers offering sound design or other audio post services, who don't even know what sound design or audio post is, let alone have any idea how to do it! In the vast majority of cases, an intelligent, enthusiastic and patient no/lo budget filmmaker can achieve roughly the same quality result as the "professional" audio post guy they are paying.

Whoops, I've ended up having a bit of a rant! :)

G
 
BTW, I'm not entirely clear what the graph you posted is showing, is the click that darker blue area at around 5kHz and the red areas just environmental noise or noise and recorded dialogue?
Yep, that's precisely what it is. Heavy on the environmental noise. So, while I was able to remove that low volume beeping tone at 5kHz, there was a lot of low freq noise in the area from 0-500Hz or so, and while a HPF can get rid of some of it, a lot of the dialogue was between two men so their voices lost the punch.

So I know that humans perceive voices differently based on subtle sounds, but surprised you can't strip out a band of voice and synthesize a replacement band believably. It surprises me that it is so nuanced.

This is because most music is essentially abstract and we are only really concerned with a nice sounding end result rather than achieving a level of (artificial) accuracy required to believe in a visual reality. This is a huge and almost always insurmountable problem for no budget filmmakers, who can't afford appropriately equipped, knowledgeable/experienced audio post personnel. To make matters infinitely worse, the overwhelmingly vast majority of people who offer low budget audio post services are graduates from music production based courses or are professional music producers who don't even realise the differences between music production and audio post, how little they therefore know about audio post or that their approach to learning music production won't work for learning audio post. Time and time again here on indietalk I see statements from filmmakers like "but I employed an audio post professional" and posts from composers/music producers offering sound design or other audio post services, who don't even know what sound design or audio post is, let alone have any idea how to do it! In the vast majority of cases, an intelligent, enthusiastic and patient no/lo budget filmmaker can achieve roughly the same quality result as the "professional" audio post guy they are paying.
Hah! I feel that impact!

I'm definitely trying to be that intelligent, enthusiastic, and patient filmmaker but our producer was able to arrange a meeting with some folks that are interested in this project so there was pressure to get this cut produced. I also found out a competing project was just getting started to try to be the "first" in a particular niche, so that put us under the gun if we want that distinction. If we do get this distributed, we should have enough cash to pay a little bit for a pro audio post expert to clean up my mess. :)
 
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...there was a lot of low freq noise in the area from 0-500Hz or so, and while a HPF can get rid of some of it, a lot of the dialogue was between two men so their voices lost the punch.

On men's voices I would rarely use a HPF set higher than about 120Hz. Without any noise reduction processors you've got a tough problem! I would actually have to hear it, with the picture, to come up with any possible suggestions.

So I know that humans perceive voices differently based on subtle sounds, but surprised you can't strip out a band of voice and synthesize a replacement band believably. It surprises me that it is so nuanced.

What you're suggesting sound simple but when you start looking at human voices, human hearing perception and how digital audio actually works, it's very far from simple. Science and software design is a long way away from developing what you're suggesting. Maybe I'm wrong and some genius has nearly worked it out in a lab somewhere but my guess is that we're decades away from a voice re-synthesis processor like you're describing.

If we do get this distributed, we should have enough cash to pay a little bit for a pro audio post expert to clean up my mess. :)

There's a lot you can do to help yourself and reduce the audio post costs. Good file management can save days or many days of work (and therefore days of costs), learn how to export AAFs so they'll import into ProTools. Arrange and label you audio tracks properly, always keep an unprocessed version of the dialogue in your timeline, oh and did I mention file management?!!

Good luck!

G
 
So, here's another question about process....

In environments that aren't highly controlled, is it reasonable/possible/practicable for a boom to have two mics - one hyper or shotgun pointing towards the sound source, and a cardiod pointing AWAY from the sound source, to be used as a noise cancellation reverse waveform? Or otherwise setting up another mic designed to pick up as much of the ambient noise non-primary sound sources?

btw, thanks again for the info. I've picked up a ton of stuff just from this thread.

Just the simple fact that you said "I would actually have to hear it, with the picture, to come up with any possible suggestions" is telling. Why would a sound guy need the picture? Because of everything else you said above: making it believable. And making something believable requires the context of the picture! This is great info for the newbie.
 
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