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N00b on a microbudget - sound advice needed

B

bulldog2k

Sorry, folks,

I know questions like this are very common, but any help you can give me is gratefully received. Am shooting a feature on a microbudget next Summer, so have plenty of time to get myself.

I'm absolutely happy that I can shoot what I want to shoot on a Canon HV40.

What I'm not so sure about is what I need to be looking at for sound.

At the moment, I was looking at a Rode NTG2, but what I don't know is whether to record to the camera (though that will be via the minijack) or to DAT (but portable DAT on a budget seems to be the TCD-D7 and that's also through a minijack.

So should I try and get a decent quality minijack connector and put up with it, or spend extra on some sort of recorder that has XLRs?

Also, I presume I only really need a mixer if I'm combining more than one mic. On my microbudget, should I be trying to put some money into another mic and therefore a mixer, or buying a better main shotgun in the meantime.

It is, of course, worth saying that our biggest problem is not gear - it's that we don't have great technique yet to go with it. I'm just hoping that between now and Summer, we've left ourselves enough time to learn.

Thanks in advance for your input...
 
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Make some short films and practice before you jump into a feature...a couple of 5 minute films that utilize techniques you'd like to pull-off in a feature...

The HV40 doesn't have XLR plug-ins? If it did, I'd say just get some nice quality XLR cables and plug directly from your boom into your camera. That's not a bad way to start at all...hell, we still do it and get professional sound.

If you don't have an XLR plug on your camera...then I don't know, sorry.

Good luck.
 
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Ok, so it seems the mixer isn't that big a deal or priority? Have I got that right?

If the Microtrack II is worth thinking about, should I also be considering the Zoom H4 in that it has XLRs (as well as stereo mics should I choose to use them..?) and also takes the cheaper SD format.

What are balanced inputs and how important should they be in making my choice..?

Thanks all
 
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Balanced cables are three-wire cables that allow for long cable runs - anything over ten (10) feet. Better quality cables are shielded so they have better RF (radio frequency) and other interference rejection.

The mic preamps in the Zoom and MicroTrack recorders are fairly noisy and not much better then the pres in consumer and prosumer cameras, one of the reasons they are so cheap. When used as a recorder only and paired with a quality mixer they can be a passable choice, however. They also eat batteries at a ferocious rate, especially when used to supply phantom power to mics.
 
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Alcove Audio said:
Balanced cables are three-wire cables that allow for long cable runs - anything over ten (10) feet. Better quality cables are shielded so they have better RF (radio frequency) and other interference rejection.

The mic preamps in the Zoom and MicroTrack recorders are fairly noisy and not much better then the pres in consumer and prosumer cameras, one of the reasons they are so cheap. When used as a recorder only and paired with a quality mixer they can be a passable choice, however. They also eat batteries at a ferocious rate, especially when used to supply phantom power to mics.
Click to expand...

So balanced inputs sound really important, but I'm presuming the camera sound in will not be balanced..?

So for you, there's no real point using a field recorder of this type - you'd still record direct to the camera? Via a mixer?

I suppose I'd envisaged running everything off mains power where possible but the idea of having a potentially battery-powered system where necessary seemed useful. Have I got this wrong?

This is why the Behringer UBB1002 appealed - I've have good experiences of Behringer stuff in the past.

Thanks all.

Would DAT be a better choice or does this offer nothing that the handheld recorders offer?
 
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I guess it's time to step back and give you a little perspective from a sound guys point of view.

I hate noise. Noise is my enemy. I spend more time attempting to rid production sound tracks of unwanted noise than anything else (I do audio post work). It's hard enough trying to suppress the environmental noise without having to deal with the noise contributed by cheap gear and poor technique.

Cheap - or budget - gear is by its very nature noisy. The manufacturer has to make compromises. One compromise is the microphone preamps of budget digital recorders and consumer and prosumer cameras. They induce hiss, and the quieter the sounds are that you record the more apparent the hiss becomes. Products like the Zoom and especially the M-Audio are aimed at musicians who, more often than not, are recording fairly loud sound sources, so a little hiss from the mic pres is often not noticeable. Production sound for film/video tends to be of a much quieter nature, so you notice the hiss quite a bit more. The Behringer is aimed even more specifically at musicians and has features that have little application for production sound work, plus the fact that it is relatively bulky.

Even mics have self noise. The budget Rode and Audio Technica mics perform quite well for their price, but have more self noise than, say, a Schoeps, Sanken or Sennheiser that cost $1,500 to $2,000.

I recommend the juicedLink CX231 because it does its job well; the preamps are fairly quiet for a product in its price range, it provides easier access to volume control than working with the camera, and provides phantom power without going through a lot of batteries.

Next is the signal chain - balancing all of the audio elements to capture the strongest signal with the least amount of noise (signal-to-noise ratio) while avoiding distortion.

There is also the proficiency of the person swinging the boom. Just putting the mic near the talent does not capture the best sound. The boom op has one of the most difficult jobs on the set; constantly making small changes to keep the mic aimed at the mouths of the talent without getting the boom in the shot and without casting any shadows.

Then there is mic selection; there are different mics for different applications, which is a whole other discussion.

End of sermon.
 
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And 'dats how it goes (no pun intended).

Nice Alcove.

I would agree with everything, except when you say 'The boom op has one of the most difficult jobs on the set...' I agree there is a ton of technique the talented boom ops use...and you have to constantly be aware of direction, distance, framing, reflections, shadows...but I wouldn't say it's as difficult as you make it sound. I've boomed my fair share...and once you find the sweet spot for a shot (which doesn't take long), you can zone out.

Of course, I'm recording straight to camera...and the cam op/DP is the one adjusting levels during sound check. So there isn't a lot of on-the-fly adjustments. I mean, if someone screams or yells, I do back the mic up...I don't always zone out...but still, it's pretty relaxing most of the time. Of course the director I work with tends to stick to the sticks...so I don't have a ton of hand-held following craziness.

Still...it's not extremely difficult to properly boom. I just think micro/no budget films get lazy and think they can work/fix it in post.
 
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I'll disagree with your disagreement. You just do it well so it seems easy to you. When I go out for on-the-set consults I am always amazed at the boom-ops who can follow talent for half a block, weaving in and out of extras, around telephone poles and parking meters, etc. and still capture good sound while keeping the boom out of the shot.
 
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Alcove Audio said:
Products like the Zoom and especially the M-Audio are aimed at musicians who, more often than not, are recording fairly loud sound sources, so a little hiss from the mic pres is often not noticeable. Production sound for film/video tends to be of a much quieter nature, so you notice the hiss quite a bit more. The Behringer is aimed even more specifically at musicians and has features that have little application for production sound work, plus the fact that it is relatively bulky.

Even mics have self noise. The budget Rode and Audio Technica mics perform quite well for their price, but have more self noise than, say, a Schoeps, Sanken or Sennheiser that cost $1,500 to $2,000.

I recommend the juicedLink CX231 because it does its job well; the preamps are fairly quiet for a product in its price range, it provides easier access to volume control than working with the camera, and provides phantom power without going through a lot of batteries.

Next is the signal chain - balancing all of the audio elements to capture the strongest signal with the least amount of noise (signal-to-noise ratio) while avoiding distortion.
Click to expand...

That was a really useful post for me - thank you for your time.

I understand what you mean about the mic pre's on the juicedlink being my best bet for signal to noise ratio - but then recording to what? Still to the camera? Or to an external device..?

Forgive my further stupidity, but do I need to be worrying about SMPTE? Or in the digital age, do things stay in sync by definition..?
 
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The HV40 has an 1/8" minipin audio/mic input and the juicedLink and Beachtek mixers are specifically made for that application.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/563070-REG/juicedLink_CX231_CX231_Audio_Mixer_and.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/531332-REG/Beachtek_DXA_6A_DXA_6A_Audio_Adapter.html

I recommend the juicedLink CX231 or the Beachtek DXA-6A as they supply phantom power and not all mics will have an internal battery supply. It's also a lot easier to control the mic levels on the fly with the mixing knobs on the face of the unit.

You don't have to worry about timecode just yet. No, things don't automatically stay in sync, but you shouldn't have a problem with drift unless your shots are really long. Besides, you couldn't even begin to afford a camera/audio recorder timecode set-up.

Don't forget that you are going to need a boompole, a shockmount (the shockmount usually comes with the basic NTG-2 kit) and good quality mic cables. You should also check out my production sound blogs here on IndieTalk.
 
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Brilliant. Thank you. I'm nearly done, promise ;o)

They're similar prices - do you have a preference of one over the other? Have nothing to go on other than your recommendation, so am happy to take your word for it. Thanks for all your help.
 
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Hi there, Alcove. Am just preparing to buy the JuicedLink, and I noticed there are two similar models - the CX231, and the CX211.

Do you know the difference between these models? Sorry to be a nuisance. In particular, do they have identical audio quality..?
 
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The only substantial difference between the two is that the CX231 supplies phantom power to the mic(s), the CX211 DOES NOT supply phantom power. Not all mics are self powered with a battery which is why I recommend the 231.

If you get the 211 and use a mic that requires phantom power that is not self-powered (NTG-1 or MKH-416 for example) you will now have to buy a separate phantom power unit. A separate phantom power unit of decent quality will be more than the price difference between the 231 and the 211 plus adding another device to your signal chain.
 
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