My Plan for the Summer

What kind of marketing should I do early on so that people know about this film? What kind of marketing should I do so that I have a potential audience lined up?

1. I could ask a local newspaper to cover the shoot.
2. I have a very cool venue in Toronto where I want to shoot, they could publicize it too (They don't know yet. But they've been friendly to filmmakers in the past. I plan to ask them after I'm a bit more prepared).
3. I'm planning on releasing the script as a play on Kindle.
4. I'm planning to do something on Indiegogo... whether I get funded or not, it's good for some publicity. (I'm planning to do Indiegogo, after the film is done. I want people to see the film, and if they like it, they can fund it's distribution. That's my igg idea right now. It may be a stupid one, but I'm partial to it at this moment).

I need more ideas. more ideas that don't cost me money. Let's go for it... c'mon...

Those are pretty standard examples of marketing ideas. They're also pretty useless as you've described them so far. Throwing out a bunch of other random ideas like that is a waste of time at this point.

Here's the thing - marketing and filmmaking are very, very similar in some respects. Both are fundamentally about telling a story that resonates with an audience.

In your approach to this film you started with a story, then wrote a script based on it. That script acts as a guide to what you need to do in the production process. For the marketing side of things you need to take the exact same approach. Start with a story, turn it into a script, then 'produce' it just like you produce the film.

So you have to start with a story. What's your story? Why would anyone care to hear it?
 
Those are pretty standard examples of marketing ideas. They're also pretty useless as you've described them so far. Throwing out a bunch of other random ideas like that is a waste of time at this point.

Here's the thing - marketing and filmmaking are very, very similar in some respects. Both are fundamentally about telling a story that resonates with an audience.

In your approach to this film you started with a story, then wrote a script based on it. That script acts as a guide to what you need to do in the production process. For the marketing side of things you need to take the exact same approach. Start with a story, turn it into a script, then 'produce' it just like you produce the film.

So you have to start with a story. What's your story? Why would anyone care to hear it?

Now that... is a brilliant post. Thanks!! :)
 
Excellent questions there. I'm not sure how they apply to an independent filmmaker. How do your questions apply to Robert Rogdriguez' El Mariachi, or the directors of Blair Witch Project, or paranormal activity?

You really can't see how my questions apply to an indie filmmaker, honestly? In fact my questions and suggestions are based mainly on indie film making. I've never been directly involved in a big budget studio feature. I can't speak for all your examples but your inclusion of Rodriguez is a very poor example to quote because Rodriguez made El Mariachi with a specific plan, exactly as I'm suggesting! El Mariachi was a product which was budgeted and made for a very specific market. Now the fact that product was picked up and turned into a different product for a different market is extremely rare and is what makes El Mariachi a favourite quote with indie filmmakers.

What I'm saying is that I don't have to agree with you that I need to meet technical specifications first.

According to the stated aims of your idea, you have little choice but to agree!! These small distributors you're aiming at, do they attend local film club festivals in school gyms or only the more major festivals? Your idea is dead in the water if the distributors you are looking to meet/impress don't attend the festivals you enter. If, as is far more likely, the distributors (you are aiming for) attend the more major festivals, the Montreal fest for example, how do you intend to get screened at the Montreal fest? Do you know what the Montreal fest's quality requirements/specs actually are? If you believe you don't need to meet these specs first, how are you going to meet them after you've already made your film?? You spend $10k making a film only for your idea to fall flat on it's face at it's very first hurdle because no matter how good or how much skill it demonstrates it cannot be screened at the festivals you need to attend.
You say that you are looking for a small Canadian distributor. These small Canadian distributor's, is there any history of them taking on extreme micro-budget films and investing in bringing them up to theatrical standards or do they only take ready to distribute or nearly ready to distribute films? If they don't take on extreme micro-budget films your idea is not just incredibly unlikely to succeed, it's absolutely guaranteed to fail before you even turn on your camera and shout "action" for the first time!

You don't seem to have even asked any of these questions, let alone have a plan or even any sort of idea of how to address whatever the answers maybe. So at the moment, I have to say that all you're doing is dreaming!

Your questions are valid for someone with funding, who's doing things like they're supposed to be done. I'm not that person. I'm someone with a 10 to 15k budget.

I'd like to think that you are correct and that my questions are valid for someone with funding who's doing things like they are supposed to be done but of course you do realize that the "way things are supposed to be done" has evolved over the history of film making for no other purpose than to maximise the chances of success? You state that you're not that person, which is astonishing, what person are you then? A person with funding who wants to make a film in a way which maximises the chances of failure? Alternatively, maybe you are an utter film industry genius who's invented a new and better plan for maximising your film's chances but you don't mention ANY kind of plan, let alone a revolutionary genius plan.

I can't think like a professional unfortunately. I am an amateur... I realized that all your reservations, and all your professional viewpoints, and your professional approach towards filmmaking did not apply to me. I'm not a professional.

Look, I've got nothing at all against amateur filmmakers. In fact like most professionals, I envy amateurs in many regards. An amateur can focus on just the fun parts of film making, an amateur can make any kind of film and experiment however they want, whereas a professional can't. By definition, professionals have to manufacture products for a market. So I've got no problem with you being an amateur, the problem arises because you say you want to commercially distribute your film/s. So you want to enter the film making profession but you don't want to be a professional, how's that going to work? If you "can't think like a professional" then don't try and be a professional, stick to being an amateur and you'll enjoy your film making a whole lot more!

I can't spend 30K hiring someone with knowledge of a 3.1 sound system for a 7 day shoot.

The obvious professional question is; what product are you trying to make which requires a 3.1 sound system and a $30k audio post budget? For that matter, what product needs a 7 day shoot?

What I meant to say is that the average filmgoer wouldn't be able to tell 'which studio?' The average filmmaker will know, that the production is not of the same level as Iron Man, but they shouldn't be able to tell the difference between my film, and let's say the look and feel of Doubt, which I believe is a Miramax film.

So you're saying that an amateur film maker can make a feature for $15k that the average film goer couldn't tell apart from a $20m feature made by top professionals? Where are all these amateurs who will work for a few hundred dollars and are as skilled as Meryl Streep, Philip Hoffman, Roger Deakins, Howard Shore, Ron Bochar and all the other top professionals employed in making Doubt? Honestly, you are sounding more and more like you're in lala land!

You're right. I don't have a plan, for warner bros. I think I have a plan for a 10 to 15K film.

OK, you don't have a plan for Warner Bros, who do you have a plan for? And, what is that plan?

I'm just trying to say that we're operating in completely different worlds.

Yes, we are currently operating in completely different worlds but the point you seem to be completely missing is that if you want make a commercially distributable (theatrical) film then you will by definition, be operating in my world!! My world has it's own set of rules which in many cases are very different to the rules in your world, don't conform to the rules of my world and you either won't be allowed to enter in the first place or will be kicked out pretty soon after you do enter, no exceptions!

What I'm looking for is kinks in my plan. You're planning for war like an established military, "well how can you possibly go to war, without your own death star?" I'm saying, "look, I'm trying to think like a rebel, because I don't have the money for a Death Star"... I got the budget for one x-wing fighter

Yes, I think that's the problem, you seem to be looking for the little kinks while ignoring the huge gaping holes!

If all you've got is an x-wing then either you'd better have a damn ingenious plan or pick a fight with something you've got more chance against than a death star. Without a damn ingenious plan, the best you can realistically hope for is to scratch the Death Star's paint job before you get blown to pieces. I've got no problem with you thinking like a rebel, the problem is that you're not thinking like the established military or like a rebel, you're not thinking at all! You're running alone, head-on at an established professional army, screaming and waving your spear in the air without a thought in the world. Honestly, for the life of me I can't see how it's going to end well!

Would you be interested in working on mine if the script inspires you? I'll pay for your ticket, and you can also have the budgeted $1500 (you can have $3000 for that matter), as long as you are willing to sleep in my apt (cause I can't also pay for a hotel), and I'll take the couch.

I doubt your apartment has the equipment or facilities I need to do my job, so you'd have to work remotely, which is a common workflow. However, my biggest concern would be that you're not thinking like a professional, how do you intend to work with someone who does? For example, you say you've got a budget of $3k but what would I need to produce for $3k? If you're doing a very simple TV docu-drama with professional quality production sound then it's doable. If it's a 100 min feature with amateur quality production sound for a theatrical venue (say one of the more major film fests) that's likely to be a two month team job which will cost me several times more than your budget. It's still possible that I would take it on but it would have to be a fabulous script and it would have to be fabulously well acted, filmed and edited. In other words, if I'm to effectively invest in your film then it would need to be a sure fire hit which significantly enhances my reputation.

From your point of view, why would you spend a third or half of your total film making budget on sound? There maybe some specific cases where this would be the best allocation of your budget but in general it would be a serious mis-balance. A crap film with good sound wouldn't help either of us!

What technical requirements are we talking about exactly?

Halleluiah, now you're starting to ask the right questions! I don't know what all the tech specs are, I don't even know just the audio specs, there are a lot of different film festivals in the world. You will have to get the audio specs for your chosen festival/s and then I can explain them to you and give you an idea of the likely cost of achieving them for your film. There's a fair bit to consider beyond just the hurdle of achieving the specs. The worst film screened at any festival will obviously still have met the festival's tech specs. To grab the attention of any distributors present I'm presuming you're going to want something better than the worst film in the festival?

G
 
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If, as is far more likely, the distributors (you are aiming for) attend the more major festivals, the Montreal fest for example, how do you intend to get screened at the Montreal fest? Do you know what the Montreal fest's quality requirements/specs actually are? If you believe you don't need to meet these specs first, how are you going to meet them after you've already made your film??

Since reading your post, I just called up this guy who's just had two films chosen for Montreal. I've seen one of those films chosen, in an auditorium. I can beat that film by 50 miles.

So you're saying that an amateur film maker can make a feature for $15k that the average film goer couldn't tell apart from a $20m feature made by top professionals? Where are all these amateurs who will work for a few hundred dollars and are as skilled as Meryl Streep, Philip Hoffman, Roger Deakins, Howard Shore, Ron Bochar and all the other top professionals employed in making Doubt? Honestly, you are sounding more and more like you're in lala land!

You're crazy, if you think the visuals of Doubt cannot be reproduced for 15K, to a level not discernible to the average movie goer.

Yes, I think that's the problem, you seem to be looking for the little kinks while ignoring the huge gaping holes!

What are the gaping holes. I can think of one, funding that will allow me to meet technical specs. What other gaping holes are there? I really want to know.

I doubt your apartment has the equipment or facilities I need to do my job, so you'd have to work remotely, which is a common workflow. However, my biggest concern would be that you're not thinking like a professional, how do you intend to work with someone who does? For example, you say you've got a budget of $3k but what would I need to produce for $3k? If you're doing a very simple TV docu-drama with professional quality production sound then it's doable. If it's a 100 min feature with amateur quality production sound for a theatrical venue (say one of the more major film fests) that's likely to be a two month team job which will cost me several times more than your budget. It's still possible that I would take it on but it would have to be a fabulous script and it would have to be fabulously well acted, filmed and edited. In other words, if I'm to effectively invest in your film then it would need to be a sure fire hit which significantly enhances my reputation.

I understand. You'll have the script soon enough. It's not this mind boggling brilliant script that will immediately make you change your mind. But what script is? I don't know what it is I would want from someone with your background, as I don't really know what it is that you do do. Let's skype. You tell me what time is good for you and I'll skype you, and we can figure things out.

From your point of view, why would you spend a third or half of your total film making budget on sound? There maybe some specific cases where this would be the best allocation of your budget but in general it would be a serious mis-balance. A crap film with good sound wouldn't help either of us!

Visuals I can handle, or I can tell when things are going wrong and do them again. Audio, I don't know what the hell is going on, and so I'd ideally need someone who's knows what s/he is doing so that I didn't have to worry about it, as my input would be useless anyway. And after working on a number of shorts, I'm convinced audio is 60% if not more of the film. That's why.

The worst film screened at any festival will obviously still have met the festival's tech specs. To grab the attention of any distributors present I'm presuming you're going to want something better than the worst film in the festival?

G

Look APE, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm not in a position to disagree with you on some of your points. But the reality is I have 10-15K. I'm going to make this movie with this budget, and help from a lot of people. That's the reality. I will try to do the best I can to meet specs where I can, but we're not going to up the budget. That's the constraint of this project.

If your contention is that with 15K I'm doomed to fail, I might as well not make the film then, if you're right. That's what you're really saying. Because you're not giving me a way out without a higher budget. And I need a way out without a higher budget. Telling me I live in la la land, doesn't help me. I do live in la la land. If I didn't live in la la land, I wouldn't be a filmmaker. Ask my father, or my brother, or my sister. They'll all tell you that I live in la la land. So I think I'm just going to throw all my gear out of the window now.

If you're right, then I don't see what else I can do. I mean let's not beat around the bush then. I need a higher budget, or else I'm working on something doomed to fail.

APE, I PMed you to comment on this thread for a reason. I did want your input. I don't want to argue with you for the sake of arguing. I don't see how that helps me. I want to argue with you to figure out a way to make things happen with the budget I've got. You can tell me that it cannot be done, and so since I don't have the right budget, I really don't have a plan, and I'm dreaming. I'm going to do it anyway. So you can just tell me how you or someone you know can help me.
 
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Yes , you can make a film for 15k . A pretty great one actually . Everything else that people talk here are bullshit and a lot of excuses .

I truly respect AudioPostExperts , he is one of the most intelligent people i've ever seen on any forum but quite frankly I don't get why all the people involved in sound only talk about money oppose to those involved in visuals who always talk about creativity and yet everyone involved in sound just keep bashing how your film can look like crap but if you have a great sound then everything is okey . Bullshit.

The truth in my opinion is that indie filmmakers underestimate the power of sound so the people who do this for a living feel bad about it and try it make it like it's the most important thing in the production and if you don't spend bagilion dollars for experienced sound people like himself you're doomed to fail .

Well , you're not . You can have a great sound and your audience and any average person for that matter won't notice that you failed to produce Hollywood quality sound.

Yes , if you have the budget hire experienced people and make your movie sound great ! But you if you don't have , just try to write a good script , cast the right people , surround yourself with great and supportive crew who is passionate about filmmaking and you're going to pull off a great film .

Now if you're going for theatrical releases and you wanna get your film on every cinema worldwide .. its different story . But if you want to make a great film who could possibly win some prizes at some festiavls then 15k is completely acceptable.
 
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Thanks, and you're welcome, but.. that was an actual question for you to try and get the marketing ideas flowing.

So... what's your story?

I don't have a story that's very interesting, or any more interesting than anybody else's. I wouldn't be interested in my story. I thanked you, because it put the marketing in perspective, and I thought maybe I should start working on my story.

Right now, I don't have a story that's special. At least I don't see how it's special. Everybody else has the same story.
 
You're crazy, if you think the visuals of Doubt cannot be reproduced for 15K, to a level not discernible to the average movie goer.

I don't know enough about visuals to say for certain. On the face of it, it does not appear logically possible that an amateur with extremely limited resources can produce something of no discernible difference (to the average movie goer) as an extremely well funded and legendary DP like Roger Deakins. Whether it is theoretically possible or not is beside the point though because you originally said you could match the "look and feel" of Doubt with a $15k budget. And this, I am absolutely certain is impossible!!

What are the gaping holes. I can think of one, funding that will allow me to meet technical specs. What other gaping holes are there? I really want to know.

I've tried to tell you, more than once but you really don't want to know. So one last time: The biggest hole in your plan is that you don't have a plan!! You say that the funding to achieve tech specs is big a hole in your plan but that statement is untrue because you DO NOT HAVE A PLAN! For some plans, your proposed audio post budget could be more than enough to achieve the required specs, for others it might be woefully inadequate but without a plan how can you possibly know?

At the moment you want to make a film for $15k, which is easily possible, in fact you could make a film for considerably less. Wanting to make a film for $15k is an idea not a plan. Having an idea rather than a plan is maybe all you need to make a film but the problem is that you don't want to make just a film, you want to make a commercial product and that requires a proper plan! And, the sort of commercial product you want to make will dictate what needs to be in your plan. So, how can you even have a plan to make a commercial product, let alone ask others to comment on that plan when you still have not actually stated what sort of product you want to make?! You have said that whatever product that you end up making you will not be looking at Warner Bros to distribute it. It's very strange to completely discount Warner Bros, because they distribute several different kinds of products and as you don't seem to know what kind of product you want to make yet how can you discount them? You mentioned small Canadian distributors but small Canadian distributors of what exactly?

If your contention is that with 15K I'm doomed to fail, I might as well not make the film then, if you're right. That's what you're really saying. Because you're not giving me a way out without a higher budget. And I need a way out without a higher budget.

I certainly have not said that you are doomed to fail with a $15k budget or that there is no way out without a higher budget. There is no way I can make that determination unless I know exactly what sort of product you want to make and what your plan is for making it!

I don't get why all the people involved in sound only talk about money oppose to those involved in visuals who always talk about creativity and yet everyone involved in sound just keep bashing how your film can look like crap but if you have a great sound then everything is okey . Bullshit.

Did you even read my last post? I specifically said the exact opposite of what you are attributing to me!! I seriously questioned the OP's proposed audio budget as a proportion of his total budget and I stated "A crap film with good sound wouldn't help either of us!".

Also, you seem to have only spoken with some very dodgy sound people if they have ONLY spoken about money. The most fundamental requirement of professional audio post is meeting the finished product's technical requirements and depending on a number of factors that can be very expensive. Any creative considerations are pointless unless this first fundamental goal is achieved and that is why, with tiny budgeted films, money has to be discussed first, to ascertain if this first goal is even practical. This is because most amateur filmmakers have no idea what this first fundamental goal is, let alone what is required to meet it or how much it's likely to cost. With professionally budgeted commercial productions, all this is known and accounted for during the film's development phase, so achieving the technical requirements is taken for granted and the focus is on the artistic/creative considerations.

The truth in my opinion is that indie filmmakers underestimate the power of sound so the people who do this for a living feel bad about it and try it make it like it's the most important thing in the production and if you don't spend bagilion dollars for experienced sound people like himself you're doomed to fail.

The truth and your opinion in this instance has limited relevance to the OP and the reality faced by many indie film makers. Bulgaria and the Balkan region in general, has some of the lowest audio standards in the world. The US, Canada, Australia and many other countries have new federal laws governing audio specifications, the EU has updated regulations (not legal requirements) governing audio specs but some countries in the Balkan region do not have any audio specs at all, let alone updated ones! The reality faced by all western commercial filmmakers is simple; no matter how brilliant your film is, unless it meets the required audio specs you are guaranteed to fail. And, to meet these specs requires experienced sound people. So in this one respect, sound is the most important thing in the production! However, you can meet the audio specs and still have a crap film, which is why I always advocate the standard professional practise of carefully balancing how you target your film's budget.

You can have a great sound and your audience and any average person for that matter won't notice that you failed to produce Hollywood quality sound.

I'm not sure I understand this quote, commonly (though not always) "Hollywood quality sound" and "great sound" are the same thing. If by "great sound" you actually mean mediocre then you're missing the fact that sound is specifically "designed" NOT to be noticed by the average person in the audience. So providing the technical quality of the dialogue is at least sufficient the average person will not notice you've failed to produce "Hollywood quality sound". However, an audience will absolutely notice that something is wrong or lacking in the film, even if they are unable to specifically identify sound as the culprit. Also, what constitutes "sufficient" technical quality of the dialogue is, in my experience, way higher than the vast majority of amateur filmmakers seem to think it is.

if you have the budget hire experienced people and make your movie sound great ! But you if you don't have , just try to write a good script , cast the right people , surround yourself with great and supportive crew who is passionate about filmmaking and you're going to pull off a great film.

For an amateur filmmaker, thinking/feeling that you've pulled off a great film is maybe enough. For a professional though, pulling off a great film is worthless if paying customers are never allowed to see it! Filming with any size of budget and ending up with a worthless product is about as much of a disaster as is possible in the film industry.

Now if you're going for theatrical releases and you wanna get your film on every cinema worldwide .. its different story . But if you want to make a great film who could possibly win some prizes at some festiavls then 15k is completely acceptable.

Again, that depends on which festivals. No matter how great your film, how is it possible to win a prize if the festival will not allow it to be screened?

G
 
Bulgaria has some of the lowest audio standars in the world ? Do you think that Bulgaria give a fuck about audio ? People here can't even pay their electricity and most of the people struggle finding food . Of course it will have low audio standarts .

I respect you and I respect your opinion . I truly respect everyone involved in sound , obviously you're far more intelligent than I am and you have far more experience however no matter how long your posts are you are not going to convince me by any way that this guy can't pull off great sound for his film when he says that even if it goes on Youtube it could be enough for him .

I know a lot of filmmakers who use nothing more than Zoom H4n and spend A LOT of time in post , doing foley etc and their films sound great , they have won couple of film festivals , their films are pretty successful on Youtube and Vimeo .

Yes , he doesn't have the money to spend on amazing audio , but a lot of filmmakers can't hire ILM either and still pull off fantastic visual effects .

I am not saying that with 1000 dollars gear you're going to get extraordinary sound or anything , but it will be good enough so If you have great story and time to spend in post you're going to have a great final result.
 
Bulgaria has some of the lowest audio standars in the world ? Do you think that Bulgaria give a fuck about audio ? People here can't even pay their electricity and most of the people struggle finding food . Of course it will have low audio standarts .

That is precisely my point! You are basing your judgement of what is noticeable and acceptable to audiences who are accustomed to the lowest audio standards and who don't "give a fuck about audio". This is absolutely not true of many other countries, including the OP's country and that is why I said your "truth" and opinion is of limited relevance to the OP and many other indie filmmakers. Also, AFAIK, Bulgaria like some other Balkan countries have no technical audio specifications whatsoever. With no tech specs to meet, the only cost is whatever you want (or don't want) to spend on your sound. However, the bigger international film festivals do have audio specs which must be met and most distributors and all broadcasters (in the US, Canada, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Australia, Holland, etc, etc.) have even more strict audio specs, which can be extremely complex and difficult to meet. Failure to meet these specs is instant and guaranteed failure, no exceptions, regardless of the standards or qualities of any other aspect of the film!

I know a lot of filmmakers who use nothing more than Zoom H4n and spend A LOT of time in post , doing foley etc and their films sound great , they have won couple of film festivals , their films are pretty successful on Youtube and Vimeo .

Again, I have to question what you consider "sound great" to be and what film festivals you are talking about. To continue a useful discussion relevant to this thread you also need to define what you mean, in financial terms, by "pretty successful on Youtube and Vimeo".

G
 
Do I think the story is special? Not really.

I think that's your main problem. If you don't have a story that you are personally excited about, that you think would make an AWESOME movie, then you shouldn't even think about putting it on film.

Also, I think APE's first post is very insightful, and it got me thinking about my own personal strategies for my next feature film. I think there's a lot of wisdom in there that you might've overlooked.
 
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