Looking for a decent mic + wireless

[Kiwiflip]

I have the Sony HDR-CX410 camera with 5.1 surround, and I am looking for a new mic to improve sound quality - the built in mic was kinda disappointing as I hear lots of camera noise while filming. Obviously I´m on a very low budget but I need something to improve sound quality and I´m not sure how much to spend.

Also, what kind of sound equipment do you use when the camera guy is too far away? Say I want to film a hidden camera prank and the mic just needs to be discrete, as long as sound quality is ok I need something low budget. Any suggestions?

 

[AcousticAl]

The camera's built-in mics are not reliable for much of anything. Especially with 5.1, the array has much too wide a response, along with the less-than-ideal location of being embedded in the camera chassis, meaning that the camera will hear everything: stuff in front of the camera, to the sides, behind the camera, and the sounds of the camera's operator pushing buttons and of the camera's servo zoom.

An external mic mounted to the camera is only slightly less lousy.

Get the mic off the camera and into the action! There are a couple ways to do this. One is to use a hardwired mic (always more reliable than wireless, though not practical for some shots) on the end of a boom pole. The other is to use wireless (subject to signal interference, but sometimes easier to hide from the camera... especially for wide/distant shots).

There is no "one size fits all" mic out there. There are different mics for different applications. A shotgun mic is great on a boom, and needs to be generally within about 20" of the subject in order to record clear dialog with minimal background noise. The closer, the better. Shotguns may not behave well indoors if the room is very reflective, so a hypercardioid is going to be the choice there. Again, a working distance of within 20" and closer is always better.

Wireless systems are great for when you cannot get a boomed mic in close enough. For news/ENG-style reporter interviews, a handheld mic (dynamic, omnidirectional) with a plug-on transmitter is appropriate. For walk-and-talks, or places where the mic should not be visible, a lavalier mic (omnidirectional) with a beltpack transmitter is the way to go.

For a hidden camera prank video, wireless may be the way to go. Do you have an actor who will be in the middle of everything? Put a lav and beltpack transmitter on him/her to pick up as much as possible. No actor in the middle? Use plant mics, or mics that are "planted" in scenery and props. Wired or wireless, with wired always being more stable than wireless.

Of course, your camera has very limited audio capabilites, and you're looking at something that really requires more than one mic. That means more than one input, probably several, which necessitates the use of a mixer. And honestly, with that camera, an external recorder is probably in order since the camera has such lousy audio input circuitry. Now we're in the neighborhood of needing a dedicated sound person who knows how to handle all this gear. But, hey, a dedicated sound person running out of a bag with second-system sound (that means using an external audio recorder) can be located anywhere apart from the camera, giving great flexibility.

Back to the wireless, if that's where you feel you need to start, expect on investing no less than $600. Any of the cheap wireless systems out there are just that: cheap. If it has a label on it from Azden, Nady, Gemeni, or Line 6, walk away. If it's an Audio Technica or a Shure or a Sennheiser that's less than $500-600, walk away. The Sennheiser G3 is a great starting place.

The stock lav that comes with any wireless system is not going to be the best, either. Budget anotehr $200-400 to upgrade to a good lav.

 

[Kiwiflip]

Thanks for your detailed answer!

I guess I should say it´s a hobby project, nothing professional So naturally I expect it to be somewhat amateurish, though I will try to find the best quality for my budget. 600 USD is almost what I spent on my camera, so it won´t make sense to spend that amount on a mic.

I will try to find a decent mic and get it "into action" like you said. I guess pretty much anything will be an upgrade from my internal mic, but anything in particular to recommend for absolutely no more than 200 USD? Wires will be fine, but I guess I will have to plug it into the cam unless say a computer would be better? I can´t invest in more equipment than an additional mic.
Most of the recording will be indoors and the mic should not be visible.

In regards to the hidden camera mic, there will be an actor, and I was hoping one wireless mic would do. I will only need sound from the actor and things very close by. Hopefully I can plug it into my camera, or a computer/phone...

 

[AcousticAl]

600 USD is almost what I spent on my camera, so it won´t make sense to spend that amount on a mic..

Just for reference, on a big-budget set you may find a camera kit worth $50k, but the sound mixer likely has $250k tied up in the sound kit. There is a flawed thinking that the sound gear should be cheaper than the camera. You've said this is a hobby-level thing, which I certainly understand, but I just wanted to give you a little frame of reference here.

For $200 there's not much you can do that's worthwhile because it takes more than just the mic. Start with the mic, add a boom pole and suitable shockmount, plus some form of wind protection (basic foam may be fine indoors, but outdoors will need much more). And, you'll HAVE to have headphones. Never record sound without monitoring, else you should prepare yourself for disappointing surprises in post.

HERE is a decent shotgun mic with included shock mount, which is absolutely about $15 above your range. This does not include cables to connect to your camera, and because of the nature of your camera you'll need to take the mic through a mixer or pre-amp (more $). Plus, there's no boom pole included.

I would not recommend recording to a computer, though if you did that it would still require the proper interface (USB-based, with built-in pre-amp)... at least $200 for that alone.

There is THIS, though, that may do you fine for your hobby. You'll need to get an extension cable and a boom pole, but be prepared for hobby-level sound results. Anything is better than on the camera, but this one has its limitations. Because of the 1/8" cable running an unbalanced signal, the more you extend the cable run the more you risk degrading the signal. But again, it may suit your needs.

For $45/day, you can rent a wireless kit here in the States. I don't know what the going rate (or availability) would be in Norway. With the proper 1/8" output cable avilable for systems like the Sennheiser G2, you can plug straight into your camera's mic input.

 

[Kiwiflip]

Just for reference, on a big-budget set you may find a camera kit worth $50k, but the sound mixer likely has $250k tied up in the sound kit. There is a flawed thinking that the sound gear should be cheaper than the camera.

Didn´t know that, that´s interesting.

So from your posts, I´m not sure anymore if microphones is where my money should be spent at all. I guess my project will have mediocre sound anyway... Although, won´t even a 20$ mic produce better sound than the built-in mic with less noise? To be honest I was only looking for a cheap mic for the jack plugin on my cam, to lose some of the camera noise. But maybe it´s better to work on it with some audio software?

I have been looking at something like this: http://www.japanphoto.no/zoom-handy-recorder-h4n-4515260008100-007

I heard lots of people say good things about it, but it might not be meant for my use? It would be convenient to just place it wherever I need to record, and maybe hook up some wireless mics to it when I want to do hidden cam stuff.

 

[AcousticAl]

... won´t even a 20$ mic produce better sound than the built-in mic with less noise? To be honest I was only looking for a cheap mic for the jack plugin on my cam, to lose some of the camera noise. But maybe it´s better to work on it with some audio software?

Yes and no. A cheap mic placed close is, in some ways, better than an pricier mic that's too far away. But I've not experienced a $20 mic that's worth the trouble due to the other trade-offs (cheap sound, high self-noise).

I'm not trying to scare you off from getting a mic, just wanting to help you understand that this whole audio thing is about much more than just a mic. Perhaps RØDE's newest in the VideoMic line would be suitable for you, as it's only $99. That leaves room in your $200 budget for a boom pole, extension cable, and headphones.

There's also a common sying: "Buy once, cry once." Yeah, getting the right thing may be costly on the front end, but not having to replace cheap gear that breaks down quickly and often is cheaper in the long run.

Regarding the Zoom H4n, avoid Zoom. They're okay but not great, and the TASCAM DR-40 would be a much better investment if you're looking for a handheld recorder. And yes, you can plant them to record in covert places for your hidden camera thing, but understand that 1) the stereo mic array is just as challenging as your camera's built-in as far as hearing too much, 2) there is no way to monitor recording if you set it and walk away, and 3) it will take some pretty solid windscreening to get a clean recording outdoors with the built-in mics.

 

[Alcove Audio]

If you are doing a prank a hidden mic is a necessity for good sound unless the gag is 100% visual, and even then you still want to capture the audible reaction(s).

The type of mic used will depend upon the nature of the prank. A lavalier is usually the best choice, the smaller the better if it is to be worn. It's better to use a wireless system and a separate audio recorder, but if you are on a mini/micro budget a lav plugged directly into an audio recorder is a possibility. Why a lav? It can be hidden almost anywhere - in a cap, in a collar, in a tie, in a pocket, and a hidden in pen in a pocket works great! You can also hide it in a plant, a menu... Use your imagination.

Always remember that you get what you pay for. If you buy a cheap mic, your audio will sound, well, cheap. If you buy a decent mic it will sound good, as long as you use it correctly.

For about US$60 you can get the Rode SmartLav, which can be plugged directly into a smartphone or similar device. Otherwise you'll be spending US$100 or more for even passable sound. As far as recorders go a Tascam DR series will do the trick; the DR-05 is around US$100.