lighting Lighting Question

[SupaDupaMonkey]

Like many in my shoes, I am thinking of filming my first project and before I do, I have a question about lighting.

To preface, I'm basically going to be using what I got. It ain't much:

Equipment:
Paper: For my script
Camera: JVC GR-DV500u MiniDV Camcorder

That's it, heh.

But I don't care...

I want to do something. I think that's a good first step.

Now, given my ancient camera... they say lighting can help, even with a subpar camera.

So... my situation:

First, a cliche: I don't really have much money to spend.

So, I've decided to investigate local hardware shops and am leaning on the work light scenario: I intend to buy a few cheap light stands, some parchment paper for diffusion, some clothespins (c-47's I believe is the correct term ) and some clamp lights w/ silver bowl reflector attachments.

Now, my question: Wattage?

All I know about lighting for film is the definition of 3-point lighting. So that's the approach I'll be using.

However, I just don't know squat about lighting in general...

What's the deal with wattage? I'd imagine, the higher the wattage... the brighter, more intense the light, right?

Do I even need a 500 to 1000 watt output. except for maybe doing a larger project with larger scenes that need adequate light?

The highest output of a clamp light I found at my local Ace's is a 300watt output. I figure.. good enough for my key light, may or may not need much parchment diffusion since it's not exactly super bright (maybe i'm wrong?).

I also found smaller output denominations for clamp lights: One a 250 watt, a 150 watt, and a 100 watt. If I remember, the fill light is supposed to be softer than the key, so maybe I can get the 250 watt output as my "fill". And if I remember correctly, the backlight is the weakest... so maybe the 100 or 150 watt as the "backlight" or "rimlight", whatever you want to call it.

(I'll basically be filming a master and a few close-ups. One of the locales is inside a grocery store, which has enough lights to light the aisles. Another locale is in somebody's small room).

Then there's the whole deal with the type of light bulbs: Tungsten, flourescent, halogen, etc. Tungsten is more like room lighting right? Where it comes off a little more brownish/yellowish?

I've seen light bulbs advertising "daylight" output. So I figure, that's a clean, white output.

So here's what I'm thinking... buy some regular Tungsten bulbs with correct wattage for my clamp lights for scenes that require that yellowish hue and some "daylight" bulbs for scenes that I'd like to be lit bright to suggest "daylight" shining in or what have you.

So, I don't know. I'm just trying to make it simplistic for my understanding in regards to lighting and wattage, in general... and in regards to the whole idea of 3 point lighting, as well.

Any input or corrections in my thought process would be appreciated.

... I'm getting kind of excited!

 

[SupaDupaMonkey]

Sorry!

Maybe I should have put this in Cinematography & Lighting instead of Newbies?

 

[knightly]

Moved... and answered:
indoor lighting is tungsten... so any tungsten lighting you get will match that. The day light bulbs have colored coatings that filter them the way a lighting gel would (search for rosco or lee gels).

If you want to throw more light, don't overlook worklights which go up to 500w (more wattage is brighter, and too much will pop a circuit at your location - divide by 100 to get the number of amps a light will use with a safety margin built in, most household circuits are 15amps, so 3 500w lights, no more) or more by having more than one head attached to them... you could also get fixtures of the same wattage and get a "router speed control" from harbor freight tools for $20 ish that works as a dimmer, giving you more control over your light contrasts.

 

[SupaDupaMonkey]

thanks

Thanks for input.

Yeah, I've noticed the work lights I've seen put out 500 watts.

I guess I'm just hung up on whether or not I would need that much.

I figure if I get that 300 watt clamp light (which is cheaper for me -- another factor), if I need brighter light I could possibly just move the light a little closer to the scene.

Or perhaps the 500 watt would simply make things easier in that regard?

Ah heck, I guess I won't know unless I go out and do some friggin filming and find out aye? lol

(I would test film btw, I just don't want to spend the money on the equipment until I know what I decide to get)

But thanks anyway.

By the way.... I'm having trouble finding a 300 watt bulb, if I decide to go my route...

Now... I did find those eco-type bulbs that are like 60 or 70-some watts, but it says the output is equivalent to a 300 watt bulb.... forgive my ignorance, but isn't that the same thing as getting an "actual" 300 watt bulb?

Again, I am pathetic when it comes to lighting so I'm just winging with what understanding I have. Heh.

 

[themattcastro]

With worklights, even though they're of 500watts, they still give off a yellowish color, so you'd have to replace the bulbs with a super white halogen.

Another con for worklights, especially if it comes with a stand, is that it's not as flexible as a clamp light.

So I would say go for the clamp. It's a lot more flexible and cheaper.

For lights and bulbs, you've got to know two numbers: 3200k and 5000k. 3200k is usually used for indoor lighting, and 5000k is usually used for outdoor lighting.

It depends on where you'll be shooting. If it's indoors than you'll be needing Tungsten bulbs. If it's outdoors, you'll be needing Fluorescent bulbs.

Tungsten bulbs are usually bulbs that you find lying around your house. Fluorescent bulbs look like this:

I would say just purchase a Fluorescent bulb because even though it's a strong 5000k bulb, you can just place an orange gel over it and bring it down to a Tungsten's brightness.

Here a video from IndyMogul that you should check out for more helpful information on lighting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOAlkIcx8VE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOAlkIcx8VE&feature=PlayList&p=A72E27259AB6BFE9&index=0&playnext=1

 

[scottspears]

Another inexpensive light is the china lantern. They can be found at Ikea and World Market.

On my filmmaking page there's a video about them: http://www.scottspears.net/filmmakpg3.html

 

[Dreadylocks]

too much will pop a circuit at your location - divide by 100 to get the number of amps a light will use with a safety margin built in, most household circuits are 15amps, so 3 500w lights, no more

Quick question: when you say most household circuits are 15amps, does that mean one outlet or for everthing plugged in anywhere? I live in an apartment, so would that be different? Sorry if this is a total newb question, just don't want to blow any circuits. That'd be embarrassing

 

[2001 Productions]

Quick question: when you say most household circuits are 15amps, does that mean one outlet or for everthing plugged in anywhere? I live in an apartment, so would that be different? Sorry if this is a total newb question, just don't want to blow any circuits. That'd be embarrassing

A "household" may have any number of circuits, depending on how it was wired. To determine the number of circuits, you need to find the circuit breaker panel and determine which one(s) control the plugs in your particular location (this info will likely be written on the back side of the panel door). This will tell you how many circuits are available from which to draw.

The breaker panel will also tell you the capacity of each circuit (the amperage ratings will be stamped on the switches themselves). The capacity of the breaker is determined by the gauge of the wiring used in the circuit. Typically, circuits are 15 amp, but can sometimes be 20 amp. The plugs themselves are usually rated for 15 amps, but there are generally several plugs on a single circuit, and the combined draw from all plugs must not exceed the breaker capacity.

If your draw exceeds the capacity of the breaker, just run an extension cord to another part of the location with plugs that are wired to a separate circuit.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[Dreadylocks]

A "household" may have any number of circuits, depending on how it was wired. To determine the number of circuits, you need to find the circuit breaker panel and determine which one(s) control the plugs in your particular location (this info will likely be written on the back side of the panel door). This will tell you how many circuits are available from which to draw.

The breaker panel will also tell you the capacity of each circuit (the amperage ratings will be stamped on the switches themselves). The capacity of the breaker is determined by the gauge of the wiring used in the circuit. Typically, circuits are 15 amp, but can sometimes be 20 amp. The plugs themselves are usually rated for 15 amps, but there are generally several plugs on a single circuit, and the combined draw from all plugs must not exceed the breaker capacity.

If your draw exceeds the capacity of the breaker, just run an extension cord to another part of the location with plugs that are wired to a separate circuit.

Hope this makes sense.

Thanks, that answer makes perfect sense. Next time I do laundry I'll check out the breaker, let's just hope it's well marked for a layman like me

 

[2001 Productions]

One more note, often a breaker will be labeled something like: "LR plugs + lights". This means both the living room (in this example) electrical outlets and the overhead lights are wired to the same circuit. If this is the case, then you need to subtract the wattage of the overhead light fixture (if you intend to turn it on) from your available amperage.

In other words, if your overhead fixture contains, say, three 100-watt bulbs, that is approximately 3 amps (using knightly's formula) less available power on that circuit.

There is a little leeway, however, with how much power you can draw from a circuit. Voltage varies from 110 to 125 volts, and outlets and breakers are rated for the maximum, or 1875 total watts (125v x 15amps). That said, I have a 2000 watt fresnel spotlight that is designed to run off of a household edison outlet and I've never tripped a breaker using it. I just make damned sure there's nothing else drawing current on that circuit!

 

[SupaDupaMonkey]

another question

I am in favor of using flourescent bulbs.

I can find eco friendly ones that use less wattage (but output is equivalent to my 300 watt clamp light or greater) so I would think easier on the light bill and such.

The only issue with using them on my clamp light setup is that the flourescent CFL bulbs, when screwed in, are going to be longer than the reflector dishes that I've been looking at getting. I can't seem to find clamp lights with huge reflector dishes.

Aren't reflector dishes simply aluminum bowls? Does it make sense to simply go get a big aluminum cooking bowl, cut a hole into it and have it fit around my 300 watt clamp light thing?

Anyways, my questions in regards to this issue is...

1). If the huge cfl bulb is longer than the reflector dish's depth, would that affect how bright (using the reflector dish's purpose) and how controlled the light would be?

2). Secondly, I had planned on getting white cooking parchment paper for simple diffusion and, if need be -- when shooting indoors, orange diffusion gel sheets to match indoor lighting.... I ideally would like the reflector dish to overhang the length of the bulb so as to clip whatever diffusion method I use to the edges of the reflector dish, thus avoiding contact with the bulb itself... In short, I'm worried -- if the bulb is longer than the dish -- that if the parchment paper or diffusion gel directly contacts the bulb, won't it melt through eventually?

3). Or am I simply making this much more complicated than it should be?... Maybe it's best that I should just go with incandescent bulbs. They are smaller. Easier to find. Can find different colored ones even. Or if I can't find blue bulbs, if I want to reverse the tungsten incandescent look to "daylight" looking light, I can instead get blue diffusion gel sheets, right? Furthermore, I've been able to find full non-eco friendly 300 watt bulbs... perhaps I shouldn't worry myself with light bills and such because the cost of the CFL bulbs are expensive -- the cost potentially evens depending on light usage. I don't know... any opinions on my rants here on concern #3?


lol, man, this stuff sure is frustrating especially when you have a small budget and trying to attempt a "professional" look.

Can't wait to get this figured out and start filming.

Ugh... I knew I should have taken cinematography courses at film school!


Oh, and to the gentleman pointing to the china lanterns...

Wow, an amusing suggestion. I would have never thought of china lanterns. Seems to fit my price range too. I prefer the clamp lights w/ reflectors for light control. But perhaps the china lantern would be a great "backlight" option or additional lighting for the scene itself.

 

[2001 Productions]

Okay, many things to consider here.

CFL bulbs are indeed more efficient. You must be aware of color temperature, however, if mixing with other light sources. Just throwing an orange gel over the bulb will not necessarily correct it to tungsten. You have to know the color temp of the bulb to begin with, then find the proper gel. You can, however, buy CFLs that are pre-balanced to a tungsten color temp.

I think you're worrying way too much about the shape of your clamp lamp reflector. CFLs produce very diffused light, so you can only control the direction of their output to a certain degree. They don't typically get hot enough to burn through a diffusion gel, but they're so soft to begin with that further diffusion may not be necessary.

Chinese lanterns are great for a specific type of soft, even lighting on your set. You'd typically use them in combination with other types of fixtures.

Basically, you need to choose the right tools for the job. What that tool might be is entirely dependent on the circumstances of your shoot.

 

[SupaDupaMonkey]

Okay, many things to consider here.

CFL bulbs are indeed more efficient. You must be aware of color temperature, however, if mixing with other light sources. Just throwing an orange gel over the bulb will not necessarily correct it to tungsten. You have to know the color temp of the bulb to begin with, then find the proper gel. You can, however, buy CFLs that are pre-balanced to a tungsten color temp.

I think you're worrying way too much about the shape of your clamp lamp reflector. CFLs produce very diffused light, so you can only control the direction of their output to a certain degree. They don't typically get hot enough to burn through a diffusion gel, but they're so soft to begin with that further diffusion may not be necessary.

Chinese lanterns are great for a specific type of soft, even lighting on your set. You'd typically use them in combination with other types of fixtures.

Basically, you need to choose the right tools for the job. What that tool might be is entirely dependent on the circumstances of your shoot.

Yes, thank you for your response.

Yes, after reading more and more, I'm starting to understand a little more a bit at a time.

You are correct, after hearing your reasoning, I think I am making a big deal out of the clamp reflector when it comes to the flourescent bulbs...

So, correct me if i'm wrong in any of htis...

A clamp light's reflector bowl doesn't help it give off more light, it is simply used to A). immediately diffuse the light at its origin and B). control the light directionally? (i.e. a "snoot" is far more directional because the enclosure is much tighter)

I mean, I know a reflector used as a bounce helps soften light when the light is pointed at it. I just thought since the clamp light's reflector is based at the light's origination point and facing outward that it somehow made it brighter, more intense. But really, the reflector being so enclosed about the light is still a diffusion device as well as controls the outward light directionally.

And you're saying a CFL bulb in general is already diffused and harder to control to begin with, so such a reflector is practically rendered useless whether the bulb is physically longer than this reflective enclosure or not?

And yes, I've been looking into the color temperatures like approx. 3200 for tungsten and 5000 for full spectrum (5600 and above is daylight, or at least that is what I read at 1000bulbs.com). And I'm simply guessing that the orange gels would bring close to the 3200 from the 5000-5500k cfl bulbs that I was looking at. I didn't notice whether the orange gels had specific mathematics detailing how much of the color temperature it took off.

Yes, I will bear in mind what the shoots call for... I figured, if I simply spent money on a flourescent and diffusion solutions, then I would be covered for any and all situations and wouldn't therefore have to spend money on both flourscent and tungsten bulbs. (If shooting outdoors, I can simply plug in my CFL's with or without parchment diffusion. In indoors, orange diffusion to make it seem "tungsten")

I know it's not simply orange over flourescent = tungsten. There's more to it. It's complex. I'm just making it simple for me, a simpleton when it comes to these things.

But anyways... cost wise and otherwise, I actually am starting to think I've been going backwards. Tungsten bulbs are less expensive. And, I'm guessing, are more directional, which my obsession with the clamp light's reflector bowl might be more applicable (depending on situation, of course). And, vice versa, I can still make the tungsten "look" daylight by using blue gels instead of orange (again, I have to keep in mind the color temperature numbers).

I hope my understanding on situation is getting a little better... or have I gotten worse?

 

[2001 Productions]

You're on the right track, I think.

The reflector on a clamp lamp redirects the light that would otherwise fall off in that direction, so you do want to use it to maximize your output and minimize spill, but there shouldn't be all that much bulb protruding beyond it, I wouldn't imagine, to make a huge difference. CFLs usually have a porcelain base that will block a lot of the spill from the bottom anyway.

Personally, I would use a standard tungsten bulb with a frost diffuser for interiors. It's only for the duration of your shoot, I presume, so it won't make that much difference in your electric bill, versus the cost of either a 3200k balanced CFL or 5600k CFL plus CTO gel.

For interiors mixing with window light, if you have 5000k CFLs you can probably white balance your camera to the window light and live with a slightly warmer fill.

For daylight exteriors, I doubt any CFL is going to make as much difference as a simple reflector or bounce card would.

 

[bigmagic]

Lighting tips

Work lights work great but get some diffusion gels, by itself the light creates a lot of shadows. The next thing I would get is some clamp lights with some colored spots blue and orange are very effective and you can always put a white flo in them. Try to accumulate a few small lights that might work in tight places like car scenes Wal-mart has some of these battery operated that can really help. I use a GH1 with fast lenses and I still need to add some small lights occasionally.

 

[knightly]

To get the filters away from the front of the light cheaply, bend out some coat hangars and clip to that after attaching them to the back of the scoop.

The reflector basically redirects light that would otherwise go backwards adding that light to the frontal quadrant of the light (and increasing the relative size of the light (thereby softening slightly).

In an incandescent light, the light originates form the heated element (making it a very small "point" source)... in the CFL's it originates from a larger volume as the gas inside the tube is excited, converting the electricity into photonic energy (all light is photonic energy). The photons move from their origin to the viewer along the path they originate unless they are reflected or refracted (bent).

A light source (no matter what it is) that is large (or close) in relation to the subject makes soft light, one that is small (or far away) in relation to the subject makes hard shadows.

White light contains all of the colors of the sun. Flourescent has a green spike (magenta filtration will take that out), sun is blue, incandescent is orangy.