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Is this do-able with modern computer effects?

H

harmonica44

I was thinking of shooting a short and then hiring someone to put in the effects afterwards. Basically I want to make people look like they are convincingly on fire, when they are not. Is that do-able?

Also I want a firetruck. The fire departments would not lend theirs out even if being paid, for a movie. Which is understandable. So is it possible to put a fire truck in, in post. And have things happen, such as an actor climbing the latter, or even stepping out of the truck, and climbing on top of it, even though the truck is not really there? I guess it is theoretically, but how tough is this to achieve and look convincing on a microbudget?
 
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Both of those things would be extremely hard to do. Usually fire effects, i think, when on people is actually a fire gel type thing they put on the person and actually light them on fire.. That's the best looking way. Also adding a truck in afterwards that you would be interacting with would be pretty hard. I think you would have to setup some kind of green screen structure to stand on and interact with and then make a model of a truck to put in.

Not simple stuff. On a microbudget I'll be honest I don't see it happening, and I mean convincingly that is.
 
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Well perhaps the fire can be implied such as fake fire from Action Essentials, rushing towards the person then you hear the person ignite and scream, but don't see it. As far as the truck though, I would have to show it, so the audience can coherently tell what's going on.
 
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A post production wizard can do this... while there is a challenge factor, it is nothing that can't be done with VFX. Post production is also a great option for simulating gunshots, blood spatters, and other "harsh" effects that would otherwise be a safety risk to actors.

However... expect an experienced post production guru to charge you an arm and a leg (justly! This stuff takes a long time to learn!)
 
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Okay thanks. I watched the film riot and it was pretty insightful as they are a lot of the time. A lot of the effects they show how to do, are only on shots where the camera is locked and does not move it all, but I want to do these effects in moving camera shots.

Is it possible to ball park how much I am looking at for a five minute sequence?
 
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As an idea, why don't you mix real fire with post fire? I remember at school when someone set fire to me when I was wearing a lab coat and there were no issues at all. I just whipped the coat off and chucked it in a sink (before expressing my displeasure to the individual concerned - detentions all around...).

It would cost less in post as less work would have to be done in post and look a little more realistic as you will have a little bit of the real thing mixed in with post fire.

Otherwise, you could go all the way and simply burn your actors to a crisp. The positives are:

* No actors asking "What is my motivation?" Seriously dude, you can avoid all those annoying questions from the talent with a bucket of lighter fluid and a zippo...
* No need to pay for post (although you might want to start a thread asking... how do I film actors while they are on fire... what lenses etc..., my DoP says it's too difficult, should I fire him?)
* Think of the merchandising opportunities afterwards!!! T-shirts, baseball caps and jackets with the famous moniker "What's my motivation... aaarggghhhh I'm on fire!" You'll make a fortune.
* Hollywood will know your name as well as possibly the FBI, Interpol, CNN
* You can shoot the next short in a real prison with a real r@pe scene in the shower. Just remember, petroleum jelly dude, it's the way forward or backwards depending on, well, you know...
* Groupies dude, albeit ones you won't be able to access for the next 30 years but when you get out, man, they'll be all over you and some of the older ones might not have any teeth! That's a bonus!!!
* A couple of less actors to pay, a real fire truck turning up with real police, money can't buy that kind of publicity etc...

Remember to remain true to the spirit of Indie film making... guerilla is the way, it's the only way.
 
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For the record... a hospital bill for a burn ward visit will kill your budget, if not your actor. FIRE BAD!

You'll get more of an idea if you can pull it off if you film a test, film some fire (perhaps something shaped like and dressed like your actor's arm/leg/head)... then comp it onto them yourself. Learn to do it so you can answer the question yourself. Most of the stuff I've learned to do started with guidance here, but was actually learned by doing it. Time to autodidact!
 
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As far as interacting with a fire truck. Is there a way to film the scene, and edit it to seem as though the character has interacted with the truck? Close up of guy sitting in real truck, arm on window ledge, cut to standing outside of truck? If you edit it right, could give the illusion of interaction without interaction.

Also, you can 3D camera track your shot, and add the fire. Again, unless you're experienced at the programs that can do this, it won't be done well.
 
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Fire trucks are quite often large boxes of metal. Some cheap vinyl lettering on a large sheet or two of painted plywood/sheetmetal with a tire stuck under at the correct level and BAM! You got the side of a fire truck, close-up time... Combine that with the regular truck door and hood shots, and you may be able to get around the "real" firetruck issues. Also from far away, a carefully placed cutout copy of a truck could do the trick for an out of focus background. Blown up to at least 1/4 real size though...?
 
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harmonica44 said:
Okay thanks. I watched the film riot and it was pretty insightful as they are a lot of the time. A lot of the effects they show how to do, are only on shots where the camera is locked and does not move it all, but I want to do these effects in moving camera shots.
Click to expand...

You could either lock it down then add shakiness in post, or when editing just track the video, though there is room for error here, especially if you have limited VFX experience
 
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Requirements:
- 5 minute sequence
- People covered in convincing CG fire
- Moving camera
- Micro-budget.

The short answer on the burning people would be: No. You either have to change the idea, or the requirements.

I worked on a project where we needed to do a similar burn, and needed to avoid both CG fire or stunts. We built a 2/3 sized rod puppet, with a wire armature, and wrapped with fiberglass insulation & tin foil. I can't reveal the exact ingredients we used, but let's just say we covered it with some kind of petroleum-based jelly. We setup some e-fans to break up the flames and then shot it over-cranked to give it some scale. It was perfect. When burning, it looked very convincing. We matched perspective to the plate and shot the whole thing in a parking lot (with permission!) over black. - DISCLAIMER: I do not recommend you attempt this yourself. As the audio guys on the forum always say, "Please seek the help of a qualified professional".

- A word on the BG plate: You should have an interactive light source in the spot where your burning man will eventually be comped. Otherwise, the composite will look unacceptable.
- The movements of the puppet will only be as good as the puppeteers. Make a plan, and practice, practice practice. Once the puppet is on fire, everything gets harder.

The fire truck stuff is fairly easy if you plan the shoot carefully, take measurements , match perspective/lighting and follow the plan to the letter. It's not exactly beginner stuff, but it's not that hard for someone who has some experience.

Note: Please consult your VFX Supervisor during preproduction. I've been approached my numerous indie filmmakers who want my help after they've wrapped their shoot. I've declined 99.9% of these requests because their failure to seek outside advice during preproduction resulted in plates that would be a huge PITA to work with.

Thomas
 
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For sure I would definitely hire a pro, and consult in pre-production first. How much would that cost though? It seems that audio people, at least where I live, charge about $200 for audio FX for five minutes of footage. Does this mean a video FX person would charge a similar amount for five minutes or is it more?
 
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That's true. This cameraman who is working with me suggested shooting it from angles where you can't see the ladder, and the person's face holding on to the ladder, at the same time, and just show the face in separate shots, but that will lead to some really odd shots. He also said not to go over 8 frames per cut, cause then it will look more real to the audience if they only see 8 frames before a cut. But again, when someone is holding on to a ladder, maybe you might want to go over 8 frames. I guess I will only do it if I can hire someone beforehand but it would be nice to have this five minutes of the script filled.
 
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