top-list Indietalk's top 100 films

[Cracker Funk]

I agree entirely. However, I believe most filmmakers here are not coming from a background of being say experienced professional cinematographers and having to learn the other filmmaking crafts. As far as I can tell, most here are coming from a background of knowing relatively little or nothing about any of the film making crafts and therefore I would expect them to be equally bad at everything to start with and to then to develop their skills broadly equally across all the film making crafts. But this isn't what I see, what I see is the level of skill in cinematography and various other filmmaking crafts greatly outstripping the level of skill with sound design. Few here wouldn't know at least the fundamental basics of cinematography but the vast majority do not appear to know the fundamental basics of sound design and very commonly don't employ any sound design at all in their filmmaking. I assumed this was because most filmmakers here were very visually oriented and therefore had various levels of incapacity to appreciate sound design but the lists posted seem to indicate this assumption is incorrect. So now I am looking for an alternative explanation.

Sorry for straying off subject.

G

Actually, I pretty much agree with your explanation. There are a handful of really experienced folks on here (experts, really), but most of us are beginners, no doubt about it. And in our beginning efforts, we tend to focus more on visuals, and I think that's just a simple matter of where our interests lie.

But I don't think it's really fair of you to turn it into a supposed audio-vs-visual dichotomy, as if those are the only two aspects in filmmaking. It's almost as if you're saying that there's cinematography and sound design, and nothing else!

Dude, have you seen the set designs on most indie films? They're all crap! Have you seen the acting in most indie films? Crap! The editing? Crap! Music? Crap! Coloring? Crap! Writing? Camera? Makeup? Crap! Crap! Crap!

I absolutely agree with you that too many indie directors focus too much on cinematography, at the cost of the rest of the film. But while you notice the crappy sound design, I notice the crappy acting, crappy editing, and crappy music. Oh, you feel like the thing you think most important is being neglected? Join the club. It's ALL important! And at the tiny-budget level, almost all of it is being neglected, not by choice but because of a lack of ability to do EVERYTHING.

By the way, I don't think you should apologize for straying off subject. We're in the lounge, so if we begin to discuss why the top 100 films are so great, I believe that's fair game.

Also, richy makes a really great point -- why isn't there a Sound Design sub-forum?!

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I was just thinking of asking you, APE, and Alcove Audio if he were game as well, or any sound people members, to make a post or a series of posts explaining, first of all, the A, B, Cs of good sound design.

I have already done this to a degree: The Principles of Sound Design.

But then it occured to me that it might be nice if IT had a designated Sound Design subforum.

I'm not sure why there is not a sound design subforum. Maybe because there are quite a few questions about sound (production sound mainly) and sound equipment which crop up on indietalk but rarely questions directly related to sound design. It's also an indication I think, of the level of interest IT members have in sound design, which is strange considering what this thread appears to have thrown up.

But I don't think it's really fair of you to turn it into a supposed audio-vs-visual dichotomy, as if those are the only two aspects in filmmaking. It's almost as if you're saying that there's cinematography and sound design, and nothing else!

In film there are only two aspects, what you see and what you hear. Of course, what you see in a film is comprised of more than just cinematography, cinematography is just the craft of capturing the visuals, not of creating all of them, I was just quoting cinematography as it's often the most obvious example of the imbalance of filmmakers attention here on IT.

... while you notice the crappy sound design, I notice the crappy acting, crappy editing, and crappy music. Oh, you feel like the thing you think most important is being neglected?

I certainly don't think sound design is the most important thing in film but it is usually of equal importance and I certainly do notice the crappy acting, writing, editing, music, etc. However, filmmakers are at least mostly attempting to incorporate acting, writing, editing, (etc.) in their films, while mostly there is no attempt at sound design.

...in our beginning efforts, we tend to focus more on visuals, and I think that's just a simple matter of where our interests lie.

Which brings me back to where I started! If the interests lie in the visuals, why is the choice of films listed so heavily influenced by the quality of the sound design and not so much by films which only have great visuals?

Not sure if any of this is coming across as confrontational, I'm certainly not intending it to! I'm just trying to get to the bottom of something which puzzles me greatly here on IT.

G

 

[Cracker Funk]

Not sure if any of this is coming across as confrontational, I'm certainly not intending it to! I'm just trying to get to the bottom of something which puzzles me greatly here on IT.

We both know that you and I have had our confrontations, but I personally think this is a great conversation, no confrontation!

So, you and I agree that most of people who come to this website are primarily visually-oriented. And you ask why we have selected so many movies that have such great sound design, but not such great visuals?

Mmmm, I don't agree with the supposition that most of the movies we've selected aren't also visually spectacular.

Forrest Gump -- GORGEOUS!
Avatar -- GORGEOUS!
Terminator 2 -- GORGEOUS!
Matrix -- GORGEOUS!
Shawshank -- GORGEOUS!

Those are just a few of the movies that I mentioned in my top-10. You listed quite a bit more movies than I did, and you know what? The vast majority of them have beautiful cinematography!

Coincidence? I think not. Doesn't it seem reasonable to assume that the best filmmakers would spend due diligence making sure that ALL aspects of their film are THE BEST?

So do we. We just don't have the budgets that all of those directors you listed have had (the vast majority of whom are Big-Budget-Hollywood-Studio-Directors). Budgeting is a biatch! For any producer, at any level. But I hardly think us tiny-budget people should be compared to those working with millions, not in sound design, not in cinematography, not in nothing!

 

[Alcove Audio]

Maybe because there are quite a few questions about sound (production sound mainly) and sound equipment which crop up on indietalk but rarely questions directly related to sound design.

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of something which puzzles me greatly here on IT.

Because it's been a battle just to get low/no/mini/micro budget indie filmmakers just to acknowledge that sound plays a role at all. At least getting indie filmmakers to capture solid intelligible production sound dialog is a step in the right direction.


Filmmaking is probably the most complex of all art forms, many discreet crafts that must be integrated into a cohesive whole. My contention as to why sound-for-picture takes a back seat to visuals is that the better the sound the less it is noticed, because great sound design is so "natural" or "real" it sounds like every day life, or life as it would be, in even the most outrageous sci-fi or fantasy setting.

Also, most indie filmmakers are extremely visually oriented; sound can't be seen so it is disregarded as irrelevant. No one has taught them any better. Very rarely do you see/hear anything about sound design in BTS extras on DVDs. It's the job of people like you and me to educate them.

BTW, APE, I love with your list. Not much to add (from a sound design perspective) except maybe "The English Patient" and "Children of Men." Oh, yeah, the original "Star Wars" gets historical mention because it opened the door to "modern" sound design.